Is Kung Fu worth a try?

corkma

Hey, just what peoples thoughts on Kung fu is(five animal style or similiar) With other styles you know exactly you're in for before training, but most Kung Fu clubs I've come across describe themselves in vague terms. As with experience in trad and sport martial arts I've been around a bit too long to tolerate B.S. training. Do people think Kung Fu's worthwhile or a waste of my time?

Jason McCabe

Deepends on the style and the teacher. Best thing is to go and try it out.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating

Unpossible

corkma wrote: »

Hey, just what peoples thoughts on Kung fu is(five animal style or similiar) With other styles you know exactly you're in for before training, but most Kung Fu clubs I've come across describe themselves in vague terms. As with experience in trad and sport martial arts I've been around a bit too long to tolerate B.S. training. Do people think Kung Fu's worthwhile or a waste of my time?

Niall Keane on here seems very practical in his approach, I'm sure he can recommend some schools in your area.

Niall Keane

OP You seem to be looking to pre-qualify their ability? Sorry I don't know any Cork clubs still going, there used to be a Shuai Jaio Club?
My advice: competition exposes all, do they compete?

Recognised Gung-fu competition types:
Jacket / No Jacket Wrestling: Shuai Jaio / Tui Shou
Full contact kickboxing:
Sanshou: kicks (including low) and punches (including palms / forearms), and throws (remaining standing 2 points, landing on top 1 point)
Sanda: pro-sanshou i.e. with elbows and knees
Kuoshu/Kaoshou: as above with 15 seconds ground work permitted.

On competitions, make sure it’s not just useless-closed single style / organisations comps, even a hawk can be an eagle amongst crows and all. E.g. Tui Shou is no jacket stand-up wrestling, sweeps throws locks et all, I know that a certain style of Tai Chi Chuan in Holland have their own completion where grabbing, throwing, sweeping are banned techniques, all you seem to be able to do is push, they made up this set of rules after getting annihilated at a TCCFE European event in 2002. Now they have their own “games” and their own “European Champions”.

It was traditional to compete on the "Lei Tai" the platform modern sanshou competes on. Many will tell you that what they do is too dangerous for competition, and the more knowledgeable may impart the story of the 1924 Nanjing national competition where serious injuries did occur, however the styles that did well at that competition are doing well at sanshou today. So no excuse!
BTW as I said on another thread:
“What I’m saying here is just because an art is famous for its ring worthiness does not mean that it only practices for the ring, it just means that what is does has been tested and has not fallen short!”
For example although my own style practices for competition we also practice sabre sword and spear forms applications and sparring, and other traditional aspects such as Nei Gung . What I’m saying is that there is no reason or excuse for a traditional style not to be practical. People haven’t suddenly grown extra limbs or lost a few, in the last couple of hundred years, so true transmission /methods, “zhen chaun”, i.e. where fighters have trained fighters will work. Sun Lu Tang on his death bed was asked what the secret of Internal Gung Fu was to which he replied – practice! So I would advise you to try out a class and it will be evident enough whether it’s real or not.

corkma

Thanks guys, as far as I know there's no one involved in san shou down here. I even emailed a guy from sanshou.ie and he doesn't know of anyone.There's a guy who does wing chun and praying mantis and there's a dragon style club I think. I wouldnt mind so much if it wasn't a very competitive club if it was any good.I like trying out different clubs but I've wasted a lot of time over the years.

corkma

While on the topic of the non- competive stuff, what benefit do you get from weapons training.

Niall Keane

They say the sabre strengthens the Yi (intent), the sword strengthens the Chi (cardio-vascular / respiratory / nervous systems), and the spear generates wisdom.

The sabre's animal is the tiger, and so it is practiced with long and low stances, and a crouching and pouncing approach, excellent for getting in and out of range in a more linear fashion.
In single form practice this strengthens the legs, back and ribcage, because the sabre is a single bladed weapon correct usage demands that when circulating the body the far end of the spine of the sabre is kept in contact with the bode, so it slips without gaps from the forearms to the shoulders to the back along the other arm along the shins. This generates what’s called blade awareness. And this medium is far to restricted to explain such a benefit and how it translates to empty hand and every other weapon without me writing a thesis.
In dual practice, dual forms and technique practice, timing range and angle three core aspects of martial arts are honed to a whole other level, think about it you can’t really use your shins or forearms to block a sabre as you would a punch / kick?

The swords animal is the phoenix or dragon, and so involves coiling movements and recovery, so yes you learn to twist up an opponent, and a lot of evasion skills with spinning sweeps etc. but also a lot of fine "spiralling" techniques a skill called "gathering the wave" or "gyrating arms" from the sanshou techniques is employed it can be large or small, but with the sword is brought to a level where the slightest spiralling flick is used to divert or slash the wrist and disarm, take balance away and pull an opponent onto the sword as it recovers and thrusts through targets such as the eyes, throat and chest. Piercing the chest with a Jian requires finer blade awareness "to fit in-between the ribs etc." Practicing such, again feeds back into everything else you do, allowing more subtle leverage to be applied to throws / locks or to become more fluent transforming from jabs to upper cuts to hooks to overhands etc... So whereas a sabres general moves are large save the two-handed short-range stuff, the sword due to its second edge, gives some more options regarding quick reflexive movements, however it also somewhat restricted, as you don't wave a Jian over your head, unlike a sabre, and you don't block a downward attack to your head similarly as you might end up with your own weapon embedded in your skull? Sorry this is hard to explain it’s like explaining a colour in writing?

The spear's animal is the horse and dragon; this weapon could in fact be the foundation of the internal martial arts. Triple tip theory, focus, six harmonies, seven star theory, nine palace theory all stems from ancient spear manuals. its two handed and both ends are used, it differs from a staff in its defensive movements, as instead of spinning big power generating arcs, knocking a weapon away and hitting with the other end, we use small rotations of the tip to deflect, entwine, disarm and thrust. The often miss-termed Fa Jing (it translates as discharging power) a type shaking short precision strike is the hallmark of spear play, used to disarm or to knock an opponent who might grab the spear. You will learn in sparring how to keep an opponent at the tip of the spear, range, focus and movement is a vital skill trained, this isn't easy, as a spear becomes a burden if your opponent closes the gap, sometimes better to let go and fight with the hands then, hence wisdom.

They also say 100 days spear, 1000 days sabre and 10000 days sword.

Hope this was useful and not too vague?

Ug Lee

Niall,

You spar with your Tai-Chi, enter competions, etc. What percentage of empty hand Tai-Chi do you use in Sanda, Sanshou?

For example, a Hapkido guy could state that Hapkido is a pressure tested art but when he fights all he does are low roundhouse kicks and punches that look like jabs, crosses. He pressure tests 5% of Hapkido and claims that it validates the other 95%.

Is it the same with your Tai-Chi? I can't see anything in your Sanshou competitions that justifies the amount of time you spend doing forms, push hands, chi-kung, etc.

MaybeLogic

Ug Lee wrote: »

Niall,

You spar with your Tai-Chi, enter competions, etc. What percentage of empty hand Tai-Chi do you use in Sanda, Sanshou?

For example, a Hapkido guy could state that Hapkido is a pressure tested art but when he fights all he does are low roundhouse kicks and punches that look like jabs, crosses. He pressure tests 5% of Hapkido and claims that it validates the other 95%.

Is it the same with your Tai-Chi? I can't see anything in your Sanshou competitions that justifies the amount of time you spend doing forms, push hands, chi-kung, etc.

I'm one of Niall's fighters and personally I spend about 20/25 minutes a day doing chi-kung and 15/20 minutes doing the form (which i do about every other day).
I don't really bother with the push hands (as I don't do the wresting comps) but it's something I need to do more as it has great application when doing the throws in Sanshou.
It's not a whole lot of time really.

Niall Keane

Ug Lee you are making statements but obviously don't know what to look for, I never trained in any other art so what I do canonly be tai chi Chuan if you have a predetermined belief on what tai chi Chuan should look like then I can't hope to alter that nor have I any inclination to try.
Fact is what I do has been proven again and again to work what my teacher Dan Docherty does has been proven to work what his teacher Cheng Tin Hung did has been proven to work. And so on, what popular watered down impressions of what real tai chi is has however been proven again and again to fail.
So who's right the long line of fighters or the hippies? As for empty hand I already have the skill to sieze and lock opponents withmy forearms alone In sanshou I can do this with or without gloves I do not have to let go of a grip when an opponent resists I can simply strike him immediatly with my closed fists as the old nei jia saying states once we have fists what more do we need? Of course it would be very foolish to think highlevel sticking ability with forearms precluded other skills. But as a matter of interest this skill I atribute to jao lu push hands drill. I could go on to explain in detail what skills applicable in sanshou and "empty hand" are obtained from each tui shou and sanshou drill but that knowledge is passed to my students.
All I will say is that without a tool such as sanshou competition or something similar it is impossible to truely test oneself and reach a high level of ability. Since the traditional lei tai competitions of centuries past This truth has always been known.

corkma

you represent your style very well. I think TMA could do with more full contact fighters to fly the flag. thats why ive always liked the idea of training with kyokushin guys. thee weaponss comments were interesting. thee only forms i know are TKD patterns but i think weapons could be interesting

Ug Lee

Niall Keane wrote: »

Ug Lee you are making statements but obviously don't know what to look for, I never trained in any other art so what I do canonly be tai chi Chuan if you have a predetermined belief on what tai chi Chuan should look like then I can't hope to alter that nor have I any inclination to try.
Fact is what I do has been proven again and again to work what my teacher Dan Docherty does has been proven to work what his teacher Cheng Tin Hung did has been proven to work. And so on, what popular watered down impressions of what real tai chi is has however been proven again and again to fail.
So who's right the long line of fighters or the hippies? As for empty hand I already have the skill to sieze and lock opponents withmy forearms alone In sanshou I can do this with or without gloves I do not have to let go of a grip when an opponent resists I can simply strike him immediatly with my closed fists as the old nei jia saying states once we have fists what more do we need? Of course it would be very foolish to think highlevel sticking ability with forearms precluded other skills. But as a matter of interest this skill I atribute to jao lu push hands drill. I could go on to explain in detail what skills applicable in sanshou and "empty hand" are obtained from each tui shou and sanshou drill but that knowledge is passed to my students.
All I will say is that without a tool such as sanshou competition or something similar it is impossible to truely test oneself and reach a high level of ability. Since the traditional lei tai competitions of centuries past This truth has always been known.

Usually the form will determine the scope of what is in Tai-Chi as it contains most or all possible techniques. So what percentage of techniques in Tai-chi, the tai-chi form do you use when sparring/competitions?

"IF" it is only 10%, then you are only pressure testing 10% and thats fine but not if you are making a big hoo-ha about pressure testing Tai-Chi.

Niall Keane

100 percent tai chi techniques, in the fight compilation clip on our site where I scoop a kicking leg and punch him to the ground this is called "brush knee twist step" where I grab his legs shoulder his abdomen and throw him this is called "double seize legs" when I next step around his legs, kneel into the back of his knee, and throw him behind me this is called "embrace tiger and return to mountain" where I use two hand as a platform to throw back his roundhouse this is called "step up seven stars" .......... On striking techniques they are delivered from a "seven star guard" techniques on the clips include "gyrating arms", "rolling thunder palm" "five element fist", "flying flower palm", and I believe one "parry and punch" many of these techniques occur constantly through the form, some are public techniques others inside the door techniques. Inner form techniques can only be taught to those with skill already developed to appreciate them they are not secret, however many "sifus" do not know them as they or their teachers never reached that level and so what they now practice and teach is a shadow of the real tai chi Chuan so I understand how people misunderstand to the point of no longer recognizing the training methods or application of the true transmission.
By the way before you say for example well double seize legs is a double leg takedown which it is remember that mention of such techniques exist in nei jia literature since the 16th century, so it's not a judo throw, but if anything the judo throw is a nei jia throw as jujitsu was first taught in Nagasaki by two Chen brothers (not chen family tai chi) who were from china and practices nei jia Chuan (old term for tai chi Chuan) in 1650.
But you don't hear me telling other arts that they're only copying tai chi Chuan! As arts are based on approach and strategy not the techniques derived from leverage of the human body - hence the external similarities of all arts. So tai chi strategy is conditioned in our tui shou and San shou drills so again if you examine the afore mentioned clips look how I say rub his shoulders to faint a high technique before I sink and seize his legs there is no pause for thinking it seems seamless as drills I have practiced have developed the ability to use opposites and to "follow" his reactions immediately. Etc etc .... This is real tai chi Chuan. Really I don't think your attitude deserves such an in depth explanation, and I expect you'll give your expert opinion on my art and contradict me but I expect I'll have explained the art thoroughly enough for those without an agenda who are reading this to judge for themselves

Ug Lee

Niall Keane wrote: »

Really I don't think your attitude deserves such an in depth explanation, and I expect you'll give your expert opinion on my art and contradict me but I expect I'll have explained the art thoroughly enough for those without an agenda who are reading this to judge for themselves

I don't want this to be about my attitute and I don't have an agenda but I am trying to look at this objectively. I will take a step back.

I respect Tai-Chi and I respect what you do. However from what I looked at in the main clip on your website, there is nothing that I can see to justify the amount of time spend on Tai-Chi forms, push hands, etc. If that is the end result then rather than spend years learning Tai-chi, you would be better doing kickboxing for 3 - 6 months and a tiny bit of wrestling.

You say that what is used in the competitions is 100% Tai-chi. But what percentage of Tai-chi is being used?

Niall Keane

Sorry but that's just simply insulting how many people with just as you say 3-6 months of kickboxing won 83 out of 87 international fights and how many were ranked 4th in world pro rankings? I now have students ranked within the top 5 European pro league with over 30 fights I have gone overboard explaining the relevance of what we do so Before you go futher ask yourself are you really qualified to ask such questions what have you achieved to question our methods?

Ug Lee

Niall Keane wrote: »

Sorry but that's just simply insulting how many people with just as you say 3-6 months of kickboxing won 83 out of 87 international fights and how many were ranked 4th in world pro rankings? I now have students ranked within the top 5 European pro league with over 30 fights I have gone overboard explaining the relevance of what we do so Before you go futher ask yourself are you really qualified to ask such questions what have you achieved to question our methods?

As I said, this is not about me. I don't need any qualifications before I can question your methods.

You and your students have done well in these competitions and fair play to you. I am sure you work and train hard and I respect that.

However I feel that you have gotten these results from training Sanshou, not from training Tai-Chi.

MaybeLogic

Ug Lee wrote: »

As I said, this is not about me. I don't need any qualifications before I can question your methods.

You and your students have done well in these competitions and fair play to you. I am sure you work and train hard and I respect that.

However I feel that you have gotten these results from training Sanshou, not from training Tai-Chi.

Just to qualify, Ug, we train in Tai-Chi Chuan but we fight in competitions under Sanshou rules.
Sanshou isn't a style per se.

Ug Lee

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Just to qualify, Ug, we train in Tai-Chi Chuan but we fight in competitions under Sanshou rules.
Sanshou isn't a style per se.

Yep, I know.

Like MMA is not a style but there is a generally accepted and agreed upon way of training for MMA as I assume there is for Sanshou.

I feel there is one way of training for Tai-Chi and another generic way for training Sanshou. It is due to this generic way that allows Tai-Chi, Choy Lee Fut, etc to compete against each other.

So if a Choy Lee Fut guy fights against a Tai-Chi guy, it looks as if they are doing the same thing and therefore you don't need to train forms, push hands, Tai-Chi self defence applications, nei-gung to compete and therefore you are not fighting with Tai-Chi.

Again, I respect your Tai-Chi and I respect what you do in competitions. I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.

Niall Keane

Wrong....
A Choy le fut guy will probably use a lot of spinning back fists from experience and not a lot of throws, most tai chi fighters I know will prefer to fight in close. Sanshou is a platform forgive the pun it is like two goal posts at either end of a field you can put the ball on the back of the net with a gaa approach or a soccer approach I'm sure if you found a tribe from the darkest part of the amazon they initially might think both the same and some of the traaining methods may even be similar but chances are the soccer lad won't solo the ball too well if he gets shouldered and the gaa guy mightn't be able to bend it like beckam? You're right theyre both football but if you think that means they're identicle then you should have gone to specsavers!
Do you get it sanshou is a set of rules based on the traditional lei tai comps that allows the choy le fut fut guy the opportunity to try out his spinning back fist and the Tai chii guy to test out that sweep he knows as single sweep lotus leg you could of course take a generic approach just like a mcdonnalds handburger and maybe ug that's what you want to live on? But some of us demand a little more flavor!

MaybeLogic

Ug Lee wrote: »

Yep, I know.

Like MMA is not a style but there is a generally accepted and agreed upon way of training for MMA as I assume there is for Sanshou.

I feel there is one way of training for Tai-Chi and another generic way for training Sanshou. It is due to this generic way that allows Tai-Chi, Choy Lee Fut, etc to compete against each other.

So if a Choy Lee Fut guy fights against a Tai-Chi guy, it looks as if they are doing the same thing and therefore you don't need to train forms, push hands, Tai-Chi self defence applications, nei-gung to compete and therefore you are not fighting with Tai-Chi.

Again, I respect your Tai-Chi and I respect what you do in competitions. I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.

Choy Lee Fut is an external, hard style emphasizing force and strength, while Tai Chi is an internal, soft style and our training methods differ not only in these respects but with respect to footwork, strategy, application of technique etc. I haven't come across any Choy Lee Fut guys in competition so I couldn't really comment on their fighting style (though before I started with Niall, I did study Choy Lee Fut elsewhere which is what I'm basing the first part of this statement on).
As regards the form it can be considered a type of shadow boxing, the Tai-Chi form being specific to our style.
The Nei-Gung we do is for internal strength (one way it's tested is to have someone jump on your stomach from a heigth of 6 feet), it promotes healing and the techniques in the separate Nei-Gung exercises are related to structure and application of technique (again this could be comparable to shadowboxing, if a little more tenuously).
The push-hands exercises are the building blocks for developing wrestling skills and performing throws.
The above are all part of the traditional Tai-Chi curriculum yet all are applicable in a Sanshou bout. Mutually exclusive they are not.
As regards MMA, while there may be some schools teaching a generic MMA style, there are specific styles within the context; Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai (though I understand given the rules that it's useful to learn more than one style to cover different ranges). And there is, as far as I know, some schools which teach Sanshou as a generic style but we aren't one of them.

Niall Keane

To break this down real simple, what is a typical wudang tai chi Chuan class start off hand stands on fists - traditional then a traditional "rolls" excercise then practicing traditional wudang drills on the bags such as rolling thunder punching, gyrating arms, flying flower palm etc etc..... Then practicing individual wudang techniques in a traditional round robin format. Then some tui shou and freestyle moving push hands- wrestling as is traditional finally sanshou type sparring with gloves on and a form to cool down just like Cheng Tin Hungs classes of the 50's interestingly there exists videos from back then with him training what's remarkable is the similarity of approach but hey it worked then and it does now.. And I ain't fixing something that ain't broke. Nei gung and forms are homework they can be practiced alone. So try and absorb this I teach tai chi Chuan as it was passes down through a long line of fighters. It's method has been proven effective again and again and one of the traditional ways wudang tests it's effectiveness is to enter onto full contact competitions hence the other name coined by hong kong journalists practical tai chi Chuan. Can you train for sanshou on a modern generic fashion of course. Sanshou is designed to cater for many approaches that's the point of it. Your faulty logic seems to suggest that therefore you should adopt a generic approach for a specific sport. This is the tail wagging the dog. Sanshou is a tool I encourage my students to use to improve their over all skills, to pressure test their abilities. Tai chi skills trained in traditional tui shou drills such as adherance can be pressure tested and improved through the medium of competitive sanshou these skills will then translate to weapons etc you see it's probably wiser to pressure test such skills through sanshou rather than with live blades. As for forms and nei gung etc all teach specific abilities that we find useful hence we practice them and we use sanshou as a reality check of quality standards get it?

smacl

I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.

Funny thing is that the one thing that practical tai chi has been bad at over here is selling itself. Niall ran a club in Rathmines a while back. At a loss. I helped run a club in Renelagh a couple of years back. At a loss. Marketting wise, I dare say there's plenty we could learn from MMA.

Sanshou is just one part of it, all the comps I did were wrestling, and they were amazing craic. What other sport is going to take you to Russia to brawl with the locals and then go out on the major lash with them. Before posting this lot I've just been through a sabre form a few times to get rid of the last of last nights hangover. Also a great buzz. I get why MMA is popular; Practical skills, minimal BS, and good craic. What's not to like? Practical tai chi has all that too, though. It just seems to have some difficulty escaping the image of pensioners and tree huggers doing forms in the park, which there are plenty of.

For an onlooker, what you see in a comp will never have the glamour of a choreographed scene of the sliver screen. And where you do see flash moves, its probably because the guy on the mats is emulating his martial arts hero rather than using good technique. Good tai chi is the antithesis of hollywood martial arts; small efficient moves, no open display of power, no screaming or shouting, no wasted energy, at its best at close range and counter attacking. Not box office stuff, but very easy to recognise when you see it, and it doesn't look anything like most other external kung fu, karate, TKD or whatever. Have a look at the clip of wudangclan on the pictures sticky for a great example of this. Hint, what you're looking for is what you don't see. How's that, grass hopper?

Ug Lee

I understand that Sanshou is not a style but like you said, it can be trained in a generic way.

If fighting ability is your end goal and Sanshou competition is a reflection of this fighting ability then it seems you can attain this fighting ability without learning Tai-Chi. If learning Tai-Chi takes a long time, I think you mentioned 10 years before Tai-Chi leaves the door, then you are better off learning generic Sanshou or Thai-Boxing with a bit of Judo as you can learn it faster and spend the other time learning ground fighting or making love to your girlfriend.

However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?

Ug Lee

smacl wrote: »

it doesn't look anything like most other external kung fu, karate, TKD or whatever. Have a look at the clip of wudangclan on the pictures sticky for a great example of this. Hint, what you're looking for is what you don't see. How's that, grass hopper?

Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?

MaybeLogic

Ug Lee wrote: »

However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?

In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.
In my own case all the punches, takedowns, strategising etc. are Tai-Chi I may have borrowed a couple of kicks from elsewhere.

Ug Lee wrote: »

Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?

Are we looking at the same clip?
You're either too blinded by your own prejudice or you've simply no idea what you're looking at.
Which Sanshou competitions do you fight (or have fought) in, incidentally?
And where did you study Tai-Chi Chuan? (or 'where did you get your ideas about Tai-Chi?' is probably more accurate)

Niall Keane

Lads we've answered this clown again and again. He's one of three things:
1 a troll
2 a 15 yr old who watched the ufc for the first time lately and instead of fighting in a cage has placed his mind in one
3 and I suspect this, he's the victim of a martial arts pyramid scheme. He probably teaches some " traditional" fantacy tai chi or Kung Fu by dancing and demonstrating with compliant students. unrealistic applications taken directly as done in his forms, you know the kind of fool you thinks technique comes from form instead of the other way around. It's the way he's been taught. And like he was told and swallowed he tells his students that the real stuff can't be done in the ring ie he's mentally imprisoned in a single method or way of practice. And he won't back down ever or give up his annoyingly repetitive mantra as he has probably invested years of time and buckets of money in a failed enterprise devoid of martial truth that he convinces himself is otherwise so he can morally justify ripping off and condeming another bunch of suckers to the same folly.

Grasshopper you have clearly demonstrated yourself to be a fool, who won't listen but then again that's how fools are made!

Niall Keane

Do you hear his "critique" re brute force, grasshopper was probably expecting you to use empty force! Lol
just jabs etc.... Yea guys where were the fireballs? Lol
what was it Dan Docherty used to call these guys... Pigmy detractors!

Niall Keane

OP I hope this was aneye opener. This thread is a perfect synopsis of the Kung Fu world. Cheng Tin Hung used to call it "the world of truth and lies".

A guy is asking fighters what percentage of what they do is tai chi to which we've replied but he can't accept this because it doesn't fit his limited understanding. Maybe and I hope I'm wrong but the question is even more inane and I'm being asked what percentage of the tai chi circulium is being used in sanshou competitions.
For those of us who fight this is a strange question but for those who are out of their depth it could seem like a valid question.
First the classics need to be quoted:
we practice technique to gain Jin (skillful application of force) once we have Jin we can abandon technique
so there you have it a fighter has internalized all his tai chi training and the techniques he ends up using are relevant for the situation containing tai chi principle and perhaps half a dozen different parts to different techniques. He is free and capable of adaption or - following the original purpose of tai chi Chuan.
Then there are the non fighters the tekken guys their skill is so poor and their understanding so low level that they really think that a fight is a series of orthodox techniques you know the type: if you do this then I will use step back and repulse the monkey I'd you do that I will use step back an strike the tiger etc....
That is the rubbish approach that has given cma a bad name. So heed my original advice ask do they compete? That way you'll be sure what you're taught is a martial art and not for a flying kick press xxy 121 xx to release the fireball.
If you find real gung Fu it will be a great experience every aspect of it feeds the others this is what grasshopper can't grasp or perhaps refuses to: that nei gung feeds into everything sword methods can be employed in sanshou, sanshou can improve form etc... They efficiently aid one another and it doesn't tale 10 years to employ as is evident from the success of my own fighters here. Grasshopper is misquoting me I had said that that was the old expression the head instructor of another style in the nineteenth century had said that tai chi Chuan was superior to his art but he could train people to master his system in three years but a tai chi man couldn't go out for ten years' implying that to master such was a serious undertaking well it is called gung Fu and I've yet to meet a genuine teacher who has pressure tested what he does who would claim that they have "mastered" everything in ther art. In fact I doubt they'd claim to have mastered any particular part, but that's what allows someone to become competent constantly examining and testing what they do. Good luck!

Ug Lee

MaybeLogic wrote: »

In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.

I won't respond to my being a 15 year old, troll, etc as they distract from my questions and your answers.

I also don't need to study Tai-Chi, take part in Sanshou competitions to question what you do. The same as you don't need to do all other types of Tai-Chi, Kung-Fu etc to question/pass judgement on them. You guys have made statements at the beginning of this thread. I am questioning these statements and digging a little deeper as there are some things that don't make sense to me.

I am not asking what percentage of what you use in Sanshou is Tai-Chi. I am asking what percentage of Tai-Chi overall is used in Sanshou. For example are there wrist locks in Tai-Chi and if so are they used in competition?

By the way, if your neigung is so good, why do you use chest protectors in competitions?

Niall Keane

Chest protectors are required for iwuf recognised amateur competition. So my guys have fought without them too and with elbows and knees in pro sanda and koushu me thinks you are really clutching at straws now grasshopper. Re wrist locks that's sooo weak, but look at how my fighter during clinches has the other guys arm controled and locked out within the ruleset that's real practical chin na skill we do it with kick take downs too that's part of what scmal meant re it's what YOU don't see. See we can take the principals of leverage practiced in orthodox technique and apply it anywhere. Sounds like your Kung Fu is all in the mouth and not in the hands!

Niall Keane

Ug best you could do for yourself is to come out of your comfort zone and do a sanshou fight. Then you'll have answers to your "questions" and will be able to abandon hearsay beliefs. See every fighter has been in both worlds before he had fought and his then understanding and after some experience, youre like the proverbial toad in the well with a limited perspective.

smacl

Ug Lee wrote: »

Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

I'm guessing you don't know much about any tai chi, let alone the practical tai chi chaun syllabus. Look at the clip again. The the most regular take down used by wundangclan was at 1:24, 2:51, 3:00. This was brush knee twist step, an orthodox tai chi technique, that just happens to be the single most repeated technique from tai chi hand forms. It was done all three times as a counter attack, borrowing energy from the forward momentum of the opponent. Text book stuff, if you care to read your tai chi classics, and it isn't that common to see any fighter pull off crisp orthodox technique under competition circumstances once, let alone three times.

What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

What you don't see are jumping kicks, spinning heel kicks, superman punches, etc.. that are more characteristic of external styles. You also don't see energy wasted through missed kicks and punches. Count them if you don't believe me. Again, this is classically what tai chi strives for.

If learning Tai-Chi takes a long time, I think you mentioned 10 years before Tai-Chi leaves the door, then you are better off learning generic Sanshou or Thai-Boxing with a bit of Judo as you can learn it faster and spend the other time learning ground fighting or making love to your girlfriend.

I said, I'd done about 10 years of it, nothing to do with how long it takes to come up to speed. With practical tai chi you will certainly be doing functional applications from the first class, and most probably a bit of free wrestling as well. The brush knee twist step technique in the above clip will usually be drilled in the first couple of months, and if you're up for competition, you'd expect to start competing within a year. Having it all in the one cohesive discipline is pretty time efficient, and I'm not sure that the BJJ crew would thank you for suggesting that ground fighting is an alternative to making love to your girlfriend, however it might look to an outsider.

Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?

If you're looking for crouching tiger hidden dragon, throwing chi balls to knock people over, or using the one finger death touch or the vulcan nerve pinch, this ain't it. Try Xtra Vision.

Ug Lee

You are right guys. I don't know much about Tai-Chi and a little about Sanshou. And I do like and respect your approach to Tai-Chi and Sanshou. I also like to debate another persons point of view or statement and see where it leads. I also like to highlight gaps that I percieve in another persons logic. Its like chess.

I feel that there might be more to Tai-Chi than I saw in the videoclips of competitions and if there wasn't then there is no need to learn forms, push hands,etc as you could learn these skills by learning skills generic to Sanshou. Padwork, sparring, takedowns, etc.

I feel there may be parts of Tai-Chi's self-defence that don't transfer too well to competition but are to be valued as self-defence as I believe the link between self-defence and competition is a subjective one and not set in stone and this is where the benefit of forms, push hands comes in.

However I admit I may be wrong on all of the above but at least I now know a little more about your Tai-Chi than I did a day or two ago. Your argument challanged me and I hope I challanged you guys a little too.

Best wishes,

Ug;)

Barry.Oglesby

From an outsiders point of view- Ug Lee is asking some reasonable questions, he has a limited understanding of Jung Fu as he's stated from the outset, and from what I can see all you guys are doing is insulting him, calling him a troll/ a 15 year old etc.

I have to say that from what's been said, much of it sounds a bit wishy washy to me. I usually find that when I see things like this that the problem is terminology rather than direct differences. Like for example some people call something some chinese name and we would call it timing. That's why these here cross-cultural interweb debates get nowhere and usually end up with people falling out.

Niall Keane

Sorry Barry but from where I'm standing someone has basically said that what we do is irrelevant, and could be accomplished with in his words 3-6 months Muay Thai and Judo, at first we answered THOUOUGHLY the reasoning and benifits of what we do, we also qualified this with results and vids. "As far as I can see you'd be better off" is not a question its a statement I don't give a rats kjki about a question mark.
Now I may not agree with or understand every approcah out there, but I have respect for arts and clubs that have tested themselves and demonstrated results. I have never taken the pss out of any fighters here on boards or commented on their videos in a disparaging way, because I am wise enough to know my limitations, that I dont know everything, and that arts that have a proven record obviuosly work. When I meet such people I often engage re. their approach and try to learn something, I do not call into question the validity of what they do, they've already proved this. That would be simply disrespectful.
Look over the post and there's gold dust there for anyone practicing tai chi chuan, I have explained sanshou and weapon training etc. I think we have contributed. But I aint christian and I wont turn the left cheek, if someone calls me on my art I will defend it. BTW whats with the "wishy-washy" remark?

Barry.Oglesby

I'm not here to defend Ug Lee's opinions (I don't know the guy/girl by the way), but I'd like to think someone can ask questions and not be accused of being a troll, an adolescent or a geek. I don't see where he accused Tai Chi of being the equivalent of 6 months of MT/Judo, I see a remark in that vein but it doesn't look that offensive to me. I would ask the same question. If tai chi takes ten years of learning, is it not an innefficient way of getting what you want out of it, or is what you want out of it only attainable through ten years of learning?

Niall Keane wrote: »

BTW whats with the "wishy-washy" remark?

Whenever I hear terms like "borrowing energy" and the like I put my skeptical hat on. I'm not old, but I've been around long enough to know that that things like that are one of two things, either

1. Complete bollox
or
2. A cultural misunderstanding

There was a time I'd assume the worst, but I'm inclined less towards that these days and instead I just assume wires are crossed. After all, BJJ talks in terms of leverage, base etc. and they seem perfectly reasonable to me because I understand the ins and outs, but to others it might seem like so much bull****. So there you go. A bit wishy washy sounding but I'll assume that's because I don't understand fully your terminology.

Niall Keane

I don't see where he accused Tai Chi of being the equivalent of 6 months of MT/Judo, I see a remark in that vein but it doesn't look that offensive to me. I would ask the same question. If tai chi takes ten years of learning, is it not an innefficient way of getting what you want out of it, or is what you want out of it only attainable through ten years of learning?

Thats a bit contradictory Barry, and re. the ten years this is a Ug misquote that we addressed, for the reason evident here, now we're being accused of it - fling enougn shct at a wall and some of it will stick and all. Please recheck posts.

Re. "borrowing energy" I have never used that term, again recheck, and have in fact often critised people for using the term energy when either strength, intent, respiratory fittness and skillful power is in different cotexts a more correct translation. Barry if you think that we are a typical tai chi fantacy group easy to have a pop at I suggest you ask Clive Staunton refing / coaching on your vids who'll set you straight as he has trained with us, competed for us and can confirm we're a no bs style.

Barry.Oglesby

You're being extremely defensive here. I don't see where I'm having a pop at you. The borrowing energy thing wasn't from you

smacl wrote:

It was done all three times as a counter attack, borrowing energy from the forward momentum of the opponent

You seem to think questions are accusations. I would welcome the opportunity to explain my training methods (which you do well) rather than accuse people of having a go.

As it happens I'm only really involved in this topic I felt it was a bit harsh to ask questions and be called a troll etc. I'm sure your style is fine and and I'm not trying to cast aspersions on it.

Niall Keane

Fair enough Barry, appologies guess I'm getting wires crossed here, I'm more than happy to explain what and why we train the way we do. I just felt that in the other case we had gone overboard with more than sufficient and helpful explanations, and when he took a pop at one of my fighters vids re. brute force etc. which I should mention is the great sin in Tai Chi Chuan, which grasshopper obviously knows or googled, as a coach I felt well what the f'8k is this?

smacl

Barry,

Borrowing energy is no more complex than exploiting your opponents forward momentum, or momentum in any direction for that matter. Nothing you don't see in any martial art that invests some time in wrestling or grappling. In tai chi this is a much more specific training focus than in hard style kung fu, which would be more likely to block and counter than divert, open up and counter. Your opponents momentum is kinetic energy, if you can take advantage of it rather than using your own, this is a sound tactic. It's simple physics, not hocus pocus.

As for chinese terminology, the technique I pointed out was brush knee twist step. Four english words, pretty much outlining the fundamental steps of how you apply said technique. The problem with these discussions at times is that any given poster will have a nomenclature of terms relating to their own practice that they immediately assume is the lingua franca for all other posters. This is clearly a fallacy. Like any martial art, tai chi has an array of named tachniques, some pretty literal such as double seize legs, some metaphorical such as grasp birds tail, others named after people. I see exactly the same in BJJ, MMA, MT or whatever; it's necessary shorthand for what you're doing.

In terms of Ug's comments, there will always be observable common techniques between styles. What I tried to illustrate was how you could visually differentiate tai chi in terms of strategy and technique. Practical tai chi chuan is often in the unfortunate position that many people who don't practice it think they know what its about. Probably better to take a couple of Niall's classes than talk about it, you'd get the flavour of it much quicker. Most tai chi practiced in Ireland has no relationship to this type of training whatsoever.

My 2c

Shane

Jayo_M

Just FYI -

I think the guy who runs the UCC Wushu club has started up a Tai Chi club that train at the Highfield Rugby Club. Don't know much about the club, I asked him before if they did Sanda/Sanshou in UCC and he said they didn't, but that might change with this club. Anyway, here's a link to the UCC page, should be some contact details on there if you're interested.

http://www.ucc.ie/wushu/

OLDMAN1

IS KUNG FU WORTH A TRY?

YES, IF YOU CAN FIND A GOOD COACH IN A PROPER STYLE, THATS THE BIT THAT CAN BE HARD, AND HARDER THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK, BY THE WAY JUDO IS ALWAYS BORROWING ENEGRY AS DO ALL WRESTLING STYLES

smacl

Jayo_M wrote: »

Just FYI -

I think the guy who runs the UCC Wushu club has started up a Tai Chi club that train at the Highfield Rugby Club. Don't know much about the club, I asked him before if they did Sanda/Sanshou in UCC and he said they didn't, but that might change with this club. Anyway, here's a link to the UCC page, should be some contact details on there if you're interested.

http://www.ucc.ie/wushu/

Just had a look at the website. Light sabres, flying chinamen and the fecking Matrix. I'm guessing their practicing something slightly different to the practical tai chi we practice. Just a guess mind you...

Jayo_M

You're probably right, haven't had a look at the site myself, just had a leaflet they handed to me outside Dunnes yesterday

LiNgWiStIkZ

smacl wrote: »

Just had a look at the website. Light sabres, flying chinamen and the fecking Matrix. I'm guessing their practicing something slightly different to the practical tai chi we practice. Just a guess mind you...

Don't knock it until you've tried it. I was in Sifu's club a few years back, he's the real deal

Vomit

OP it really depends on what you want from it. Do you want to learn it just for the sake of a challenge? Kung Fu styles are difficult to do well, but personally rewarding.

If it's self defense then forget TMA. Sure, some of them can give you improved levels of fitness and the ability to use your hands and feet a bit better, but they don't compare to modern systems. MMA is the only way to learn how to properly fight. You'll need to train in grappling as well as striking.

If you do decide to go for kung fu, just beware of deluded instructors who talk about magical qi powers that allow to knock people over without touching them or move objects with your mind. These people are fools who watch too many movies and will only instill you with a false sense of security at best.

Niall Keane

"If it's self defense then forget TMA. Sure, some of them can give you improved levels of fitness and the ability to use your hands and feet a bit better, but they don't compare to modern systems. MMA is the only way to learn how to properly fight. You'll need to train in grappling as well as striking."

oh no! Another one has hit puberty!!! Google sanshou/ sanda, educate yourself!

Vomit

Niall Keane wrote: »

"If it's self defense then forget TMA. Sure, some of them can give you improved levels of fitness and the ability to use your hands and feet a bit better, but they don't compare to modern systems. MMA is the only way to learn how to properly fight. You'll need to train in grappling as well as striking."

oh no! Another one has hit puberty!!! Google sanshou/ sanda, educate yourself!

I trained in it years ago along with Northern Shaolin, White Crane and Taiji. ****ing useless instructors with no sense of strategy. There was an ex-kickboxer in the class who gave them the biggest wake up call. I asked him where he trained and joined up. This was many many years ago though. Probably before your first bra fitting.

yomchi

Keep it civil lads.

Vomit this thread is about Kung Fu, not MMA. We're all sick to death with micky measuring around here. Stay on topic please.

Niall Keane

Vomit, please feel free to drop down and offer me a wake up call any time. Btw I've had the decency to reveal who I am, please let us know what you've achieved - outside of tekken that is?
Btw instead of living under your MMA Hero's shadow why not enter the pwka European sanda league and at least earn the right to make sweeping statements? You'd get a lot more respect around here with a proper fight record.
Also, just wondering have you got a "tap out" t-shirt yet?

Vomit

Niall Keane wrote: »

Vomit, please feel free to drop down and offer me a wake up call any time. Btw I've had the decency to reveal who I am

*checks profile* Oh, you're not THE Niall Keane are you? From THE Wudang Sanshou club? Forgive me, I had no idea who I was talking to!

, please let us know what you've achieved - outside of tekken that is?
Btw instead of living under your MMA Hero's shadow why not enter the pwka European sanda league and at least earn the right to make sweeping statements? You'd get a lot more respect around here with a proper fight record.
Also, just wondering have you got a "tap out" t-shirt yet?

You sure don't conduct yourself like the chief instructor of a TMA club. In my day, they at least tried to act like martial artists.

yomchi wrote:

Keep it civil lads.

• oh no! Another one has hit puberty!!!

  
  

• please let us know what you've achieved - outside of tekken that is?

  
  

• just wondering have you got a "tap out" t-shirt yet?

I think it's clear who yomchi is talking to. Seriously, grow up...