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Is Kung Fu worth a try?

  • 17-02-2010 1:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭ corkma


    Hey, just what peoples thoughts on Kung fu is(five animal style or similiar) With other styles you know exactly you're in for before training, but most Kung Fu clubs I've come across describe themselves in vague terms. As with experience in trad and sport martial arts I've been around a bit too long to tolerate B.S. training. Do people think Kung Fu's worthwhile or a waste of my time?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 826 Jason McCabe


    Deepends on the style and the teacher. Best thing is to go and try it out.

    Proof of the pudding is in the eating


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,191 Unpossible


    corkma wrote: »
    Hey, just what peoples thoughts on Kung fu is(five animal style or similiar) With other styles you know exactly you're in for before training, but most Kung Fu clubs I've come across describe themselves in vague terms. As with experience in trad and sport martial arts I've been around a bit too long to tolerate B.S. training. Do people think Kung Fu's worthwhile or a waste of my time?
    Niall Keane on here seems very practical in his approach, I'm sure he can recommend some schools in your area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    OP You seem to be looking to pre-qualify their ability? Sorry I don't know any Cork clubs still going, there used to be a Shuai Jaio Club?
    My advice: competition exposes all, do they compete?

    Recognised Gung-fu competition types:
    Jacket / No Jacket Wrestling: Shuai Jaio / Tui Shou
    Full contact kickboxing:
    Sanshou: kicks (including low) and punches (including palms / forearms), and throws (remaining standing 2 points, landing on top 1 point)
    Sanda: pro-sanshou i.e. with elbows and knees
    Kuoshu/Kaoshou: as above with 15 seconds ground work permitted.

    On competitions, make sure it’s not just useless-closed single style / organisations comps, even a hawk can be an eagle amongst crows and all. E.g. Tui Shou is no jacket stand-up wrestling, sweeps throws locks et all, I know that a certain style of Tai Chi Chuan in Holland have their own completion where grabbing, throwing, sweeping are banned techniques, all you seem to be able to do is push, they made up this set of rules after getting annihilated at a TCCFE European event in 2002. Now they have their own “games” and their own “European Champions”.

    It was traditional to compete on the "Lei Tai" the platform modern sanshou competes on. Many will tell you that what they do is too dangerous for competition, and the more knowledgeable may impart the story of the 1924 Nanjing national competition where serious injuries did occur, however the styles that did well at that competition are doing well at sanshou today. So no excuse!
    BTW as I said on another thread:
    “What I’m saying here is just because an art is famous for its ring worthiness does not mean that it only practices for the ring, it just means that what is does has been tested and has not fallen short!”
    For example although my own style practices for competition we also practice sabre sword and spear forms applications and sparring, and other traditional aspects such as Nei Gung . What I’m saying is that there is no reason or excuse for a traditional style not to be practical. People haven’t suddenly grown extra limbs or lost a few, in the last couple of hundred years, so true transmission /methods, “zhen chaun”, i.e. where fighters have trained fighters will work. Sun Lu Tang on his death bed was asked what the secret of Internal Gung Fu was to which he replied – practice! So I would advise you to try out a class and it will be evident enough whether it’s real or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭ corkma


    Thanks guys, as far as I know there's no one involved in san shou down here. I even emailed a guy from sanshou.ie and he doesn't know of anyone.There's a guy who does wing chun and praying mantis and there's a dragon style club I think. I wouldnt mind so much if it wasn't a very competitive club if it was any good.I like trying out different clubs but I've wasted a lot of time over the years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭ corkma


    While on the topic of the non- competive stuff, what benefit do you get from weapons training.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    They say the sabre strengthens the Yi (intent), the sword strengthens the Chi (cardio-vascular / respiratory / nervous systems), and the spear generates wisdom.

    The sabre's animal is the tiger, and so it is practiced with long and low stances, and a crouching and pouncing approach, excellent for getting in and out of range in a more linear fashion.
    In single form practice this strengthens the legs, back and ribcage, because the sabre is a single bladed weapon correct usage demands that when circulating the body the far end of the spine of the sabre is kept in contact with the bode, so it slips without gaps from the forearms to the shoulders to the back along the other arm along the shins. This generates what’s called blade awareness. And this medium is far to restricted to explain such a benefit and how it translates to empty hand and every other weapon without me writing a thesis.
    In dual practice, dual forms and technique practice, timing range and angle three core aspects of martial arts are honed to a whole other level, think about it you can’t really use your shins or forearms to block a sabre as you would a punch / kick?

    The swords animal is the phoenix or dragon, and so involves coiling movements and recovery, so yes you learn to twist up an opponent, and a lot of evasion skills with spinning sweeps etc. but also a lot of fine "spiralling" techniques a skill called "gathering the wave" or "gyrating arms" from the sanshou techniques is employed it can be large or small, but with the sword is brought to a level where the slightest spiralling flick is used to divert or slash the wrist and disarm, take balance away and pull an opponent onto the sword as it recovers and thrusts through targets such as the eyes, throat and chest. Piercing the chest with a Jian requires finer blade awareness "to fit in-between the ribs etc." Practicing such, again feeds back into everything else you do, allowing more subtle leverage to be applied to throws / locks or to become more fluent transforming from jabs to upper cuts to hooks to overhands etc... So whereas a sabres general moves are large save the two-handed short-range stuff, the sword due to its second edge, gives some more options regarding quick reflexive movements, however it also somewhat restricted, as you don't wave a Jian over your head, unlike a sabre, and you don't block a downward attack to your head similarly as you might end up with your own weapon embedded in your skull? Sorry this is hard to explain it’s like explaining a colour in writing?

    The spear's animal is the horse and dragon; this weapon could in fact be the foundation of the internal martial arts. Triple tip theory, focus, six harmonies, seven star theory, nine palace theory all stems from ancient spear manuals. its two handed and both ends are used, it differs from a staff in its defensive movements, as instead of spinning big power generating arcs, knocking a weapon away and hitting with the other end, we use small rotations of the tip to deflect, entwine, disarm and thrust. The often miss-termed Fa Jing (it translates as discharging power) a type shaking short precision strike is the hallmark of spear play, used to disarm or to knock an opponent who might grab the spear. You will learn in sparring how to keep an opponent at the tip of the spear, range, focus and movement is a vital skill trained, this isn't easy, as a spear becomes a burden if your opponent closes the gap, sometimes better to let go and fight with the hands then, hence wisdom.

    They also say 100 days spear, 1000 days sabre and 10000 days sword.

    Hope this was useful and not too vague?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    Niall,

    You spar with your Tai-Chi, enter competions, etc. What percentage of empty hand Tai-Chi do you use in Sanda, Sanshou?

    For example, a Hapkido guy could state that Hapkido is a pressure tested art but when he fights all he does are low roundhouse kicks and punches that look like jabs, crosses. He pressure tests 5% of Hapkido and claims that it validates the other 95%.

    Is it the same with your Tai-Chi? I can't see anything in your Sanshou competitions that justifies the amount of time you spend doing forms, push hands, chi-kung, etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 MaybeLogic


    Ug Lee wrote: »
    Niall,

    You spar with your Tai-Chi, enter competions, etc. What percentage of empty hand Tai-Chi do you use in Sanda, Sanshou?

    For example, a Hapkido guy could state that Hapkido is a pressure tested art but when he fights all he does are low roundhouse kicks and punches that look like jabs, crosses. He pressure tests 5% of Hapkido and claims that it validates the other 95%.

    Is it the same with your Tai-Chi? I can't see anything in your Sanshou competitions that justifies the amount of time you spend doing forms, push hands, chi-kung, etc.

    I'm one of Niall's fighters and personally I spend about 20/25 minutes a day doing chi-kung and 15/20 minutes doing the form (which i do about every other day).
    I don't really bother with the push hands (as I don't do the wresting comps) but it's something I need to do more as it has great application when doing the throws in Sanshou.
    It's not a whole lot of time really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Ug Lee you are making statements but obviously don't know what to look for, I never trained in any other art so what I do canonly be tai chi Chuan if you have a predetermined belief on what tai chi Chuan should look like then I can't hope to alter that nor have I any inclination to try.
    Fact is what I do has been proven again and again to work what my teacher Dan Docherty does has been proven to work what his teacher Cheng Tin Hung did has been proven to work. And so on, what popular watered down impressions of what real tai chi is has however been proven again and again to fail.
    So who's right the long line of fighters or the hippies? As for empty hand I already have the skill to sieze and lock opponents withmy forearms alone In sanshou I can do this with or without gloves I do not have to let go of a grip when an opponent resists I can simply strike him immediatly with my closed fists as the old nei jia saying states once we have fists what more do we need? Of course it would be very foolish to think highlevel sticking ability with forearms precluded other skills. But as a matter of interest this skill I atribute to jao lu push hands drill. I could go on to explain in detail what skills applicable in sanshou and "empty hand" are obtained from each tui shou and sanshou drill but that knowledge is passed to my students.
    All I will say is that without a tool such as sanshou competition or something similar it is impossible to truely test oneself and reach a high level of ability. Since the traditional lei tai competitions of centuries past This truth has always been known.


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭ corkma


    you represent your style very well. I think TMA could do with more full contact fighters to fly the flag. thats why ive always liked the idea of training with kyokushin guys. thee weaponss comments were interesting. thee only forms i know are TKD patterns but i think weapons could be interesting


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    Ug Lee you are making statements but obviously don't know what to look for, I never trained in any other art so what I do canonly be tai chi Chuan if you have a predetermined belief on what tai chi Chuan should look like then I can't hope to alter that nor have I any inclination to try.
    Fact is what I do has been proven again and again to work what my teacher Dan Docherty does has been proven to work what his teacher Cheng Tin Hung did has been proven to work. And so on, what popular watered down impressions of what real tai chi is has however been proven again and again to fail.
    So who's right the long line of fighters or the hippies? As for empty hand I already have the skill to sieze and lock opponents withmy forearms alone In sanshou I can do this with or without gloves I do not have to let go of a grip when an opponent resists I can simply strike him immediatly with my closed fists as the old nei jia saying states once we have fists what more do we need? Of course it would be very foolish to think highlevel sticking ability with forearms precluded other skills. But as a matter of interest this skill I atribute to jao lu push hands drill. I could go on to explain in detail what skills applicable in sanshou and "empty hand" are obtained from each tui shou and sanshou drill but that knowledge is passed to my students.
    All I will say is that without a tool such as sanshou competition or something similar it is impossible to truely test oneself and reach a high level of ability. Since the traditional lei tai competitions of centuries past This truth has always been known.

    Usually the form will determine the scope of what is in Tai-Chi as it contains most or all possible techniques. So what percentage of techniques in Tai-chi, the tai-chi form do you use when sparring/competitions?

    "IF" it is only 10%, then you are only pressure testing 10% and thats fine but not if you are making a big hoo-ha about pressure testing Tai-Chi.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    100 percent tai chi techniques, in the fight compilation clip on our site where I scoop a kicking leg and punch him to the ground this is called "brush knee twist step" where I grab his legs shoulder his abdomen and throw him this is called "double seize legs" when I next step around his legs, kneel into the back of his knee, and throw him behind me this is called "embrace tiger and return to mountain" where I use two hand as a platform to throw back his roundhouse this is called "step up seven stars" .......... On striking techniques they are delivered from a "seven star guard" techniques on the clips include "gyrating arms", "rolling thunder palm" "five element fist", "flying flower palm", and I believe one "parry and punch" many of these techniques occur constantly through the form, some are public techniques others inside the door techniques. Inner form techniques can only be taught to those with skill already developed to appreciate them they are not secret, however many "sifus" do not know them as they or their teachers never reached that level and so what they now practice and teach is a shadow of the real tai chi Chuan so I understand how people misunderstand to the point of no longer recognizing the training methods or application of the true transmission.
    By the way before you say for example well double seize legs is a double leg takedown which it is remember that mention of such techniques exist in nei jia literature since the 16th century, so it's not a judo throw, but if anything the judo throw is a nei jia throw as jujitsu was first taught in Nagasaki by two Chen brothers (not chen family tai chi) who were from china and practices nei jia Chuan (old term for tai chi Chuan) in 1650.
    But you don't hear me telling other arts that they're only copying tai chi Chuan! As arts are based on approach and strategy not the techniques derived from leverage of the human body - hence the external similarities of all arts. So tai chi strategy is conditioned in our tui shou and San shou drills so again if you examine the afore mentioned clips look how I say rub his shoulders to faint a high technique before I sink and seize his legs there is no pause for thinking it seems seamless as drills I have practiced have developed the ability to use opposites and to "follow" his reactions immediately. Etc etc .... This is real tai chi Chuan. Really I don't think your attitude deserves such an in depth explanation, and I expect you'll give your expert opinion on my art and contradict me but I expect I'll have explained the art thoroughly enough for those without an agenda who are reading this to judge for themselves


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    Really I don't think your attitude deserves such an in depth explanation, and I expect you'll give your expert opinion on my art and contradict me but I expect I'll have explained the art thoroughly enough for those without an agenda who are reading this to judge for themselves

    I don't want this to be about my attitute and I don't have an agenda but I am trying to look at this objectively. I will take a step back.

    I respect Tai-Chi and I respect what you do. However from what I looked at in the main clip on your website, there is nothing that I can see to justify the amount of time spend on Tai-Chi forms, push hands, etc. If that is the end result then rather than spend years learning Tai-chi, you would be better doing kickboxing for 3 - 6 months and a tiny bit of wrestling.

    You say that what is used in the competitions is 100% Tai-chi. But what percentage of Tai-chi is being used?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Sorry but that's just simply insulting how many people with just as you say 3-6 months of kickboxing won 83 out of 87 international fights and how many were ranked 4th in world pro rankings? I now have students ranked within the top 5 European pro league with over 30 fights I have gone overboard explaining the relevance of what we do so Before you go futher ask yourself are you really qualified to ask such questions what have you achieved to question our methods?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    Sorry but that's just simply insulting how many people with just as you say 3-6 months of kickboxing won 83 out of 87 international fights and how many were ranked 4th in world pro rankings? I now have students ranked within the top 5 European pro league with over 30 fights I have gone overboard explaining the relevance of what we do so Before you go futher ask yourself are you really qualified to ask such questions what have you achieved to question our methods?

    As I said, this is not about me. I don't need any qualifications before I can question your methods.

    You and your students have done well in these competitions and fair play to you. I am sure you work and train hard and I respect that.

    However I feel that you have gotten these results from training Sanshou, not from training Tai-Chi.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 MaybeLogic


    Ug Lee wrote: »
    As I said, this is not about me. I don't need any qualifications before I can question your methods.

    You and your students have done well in these competitions and fair play to you. I am sure you work and train hard and I respect that.

    However I feel that you have gotten these results from training Sanshou, not from training Tai-Chi.

    Just to qualify, Ug, we train in Tai-Chi Chuan but we fight in competitions under Sanshou rules.
    Sanshou isn't a style per se.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Just to qualify, Ug, we train in Tai-Chi Chuan but we fight in competitions under Sanshou rules.
    Sanshou isn't a style per se.

    Yep, I know.

    Like MMA is not a style but there is a generally accepted and agreed upon way of training for MMA as I assume there is for Sanshou.

    I feel there is one way of training for Tai-Chi and another generic way for training Sanshou. It is due to this generic way that allows Tai-Chi, Choy Lee Fut, etc to compete against each other.

    So if a Choy Lee Fut guy fights against a Tai-Chi guy, it looks as if they are doing the same thing and therefore you don't need to train forms, push hands, Tai-Chi self defence applications, nei-gung to compete and therefore you are not fighting with Tai-Chi.

    Again, I respect your Tai-Chi and I respect what you do in competitions. I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Wrong....
    A Choy le fut guy will probably use a lot of spinning back fists from experience and not a lot of throws, most tai chi fighters I know will prefer to fight in close. Sanshou is a platform forgive the pun it is like two goal posts at either end of a field you can put the ball on the back of the net with a gaa approach or a soccer approach I'm sure if you found a tribe from the darkest part of the amazon they initially might think both the same and some of the traaining methods may even be similar but chances are the soccer lad won't solo the ball too well if he gets shouldered and the gaa guy mightn't be able to bend it like beckam? You're right theyre both football but if you think that means they're identicle then you should have gone to specsavers!
    Do you get it sanshou is a set of rules based on the traditional lei tai comps that allows the choy le fut fut guy the opportunity to try out his spinning back fist and the Tai chii guy to test out that sweep he knows as single sweep lotus leg you could of course take a generic approach just like a mcdonnalds handburger and maybe ug that's what you want to live on? But some of us demand a little more flavor!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 MaybeLogic


    Ug Lee wrote: »
    Yep, I know.

    Like MMA is not a style but there is a generally accepted and agreed upon way of training for MMA as I assume there is for Sanshou.

    I feel there is one way of training for Tai-Chi and another generic way for training Sanshou. It is due to this generic way that allows Tai-Chi, Choy Lee Fut, etc to compete against each other.

    So if a Choy Lee Fut guy fights against a Tai-Chi guy, it looks as if they are doing the same thing and therefore you don't need to train forms, push hands, Tai-Chi self defence applications, nei-gung to compete and therefore you are not fighting with Tai-Chi.

    Again, I respect your Tai-Chi and I respect what you do in competitions. I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.

    Choy Lee Fut is an external, hard style emphasizing force and strength, while Tai Chi is an internal, soft style and our training methods differ not only in these respects but with respect to footwork, strategy, application of technique etc. I haven't come across any Choy Lee Fut guys in competition so I couldn't really comment on their fighting style (though before I started with Niall, I did study Choy Lee Fut elsewhere which is what I'm basing the first part of this statement on).
    As regards the form it can be considered a type of shadow boxing, the Tai-Chi form being specific to our style.
    The Nei-Gung we do is for internal strength (one way it's tested is to have someone jump on your stomach from a heigth of 6 feet), it promotes healing and the techniques in the separate Nei-Gung exercises are related to structure and application of technique (again this could be comparable to shadowboxing, if a little more tenuously).
    The push-hands exercises are the building blocks for developing wrestling skills and performing throws.
    The above are all part of the traditional Tai-Chi curriculum yet all are applicable in a Sanshou bout. Mutually exclusive they are not.
    As regards MMA, while there may be some schools teaching a generic MMA style, there are specific styles within the context; Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai (though I understand given the rules that it's useful to learn more than one style to cover different ranges). And there is, as far as I know, some schools which teach Sanshou as a generic style but we aren't one of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    To break this down real simple, what is a typical wudang tai chi Chuan class start off hand stands on fists - traditional then a traditional "rolls" excercise then practicing traditional wudang drills on the bags such as rolling thunder punching, gyrating arms, flying flower palm etc etc..... Then practicing individual wudang techniques in a traditional round robin format. Then some tui shou and freestyle moving push hands- wrestling as is traditional finally sanshou type sparring with gloves on and a form to cool down just like Cheng Tin Hungs classes of the 50's interestingly there exists videos from back then with him training what's remarkable is the similarity of approach but hey it worked then and it does now.. And I ain't fixing something that ain't broke. Nei gung and forms are homework they can be practiced alone. So try and absorb this I teach tai chi Chuan as it was passes down through a long line of fighters. It's method has been proven effective again and again and one of the traditional ways wudang tests it's effectiveness is to enter onto full contact competitions hence the other name coined by hong kong journalists practical tai chi Chuan. Can you train for sanshou on a modern generic fashion of course. Sanshou is designed to cater for many approaches that's the point of it. Your faulty logic seems to suggest that therefore you should adopt a generic approach for a specific sport. This is the tail wagging the dog. Sanshou is a tool I encourage my students to use to improve their over all skills, to pressure test their abilities. Tai chi skills trained in traditional tui shou drills such as adherance can be pressure tested and improved through the medium of competitive sanshou these skills will then translate to weapons etc you see it's probably wiser to pressure test such skills through sanshou rather than with live blades. As for forms and nei gung etc all teach specific abilities that we find useful hence we practice them and we use sanshou as a reality check of quality standards get it?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    I just think you guys are using the latter as a major selling point for the former when they are not mutually exclusive.

    Funny thing is that the one thing that practical tai chi has been bad at over here is selling itself. Niall ran a club in Rathmines a while back. At a loss. I helped run a club in Renelagh a couple of years back. At a loss. Marketting wise, I dare say there's plenty we could learn from MMA.

    Sanshou is just one part of it, all the comps I did were wrestling, and they were amazing craic. What other sport is going to take you to Russia to brawl with the locals and then go out on the major lash with them. Before posting this lot I've just been through a sabre form a few times to get rid of the last of last nights hangover. Also a great buzz. I get why MMA is popular; Practical skills, minimal BS, and good craic. What's not to like? Practical tai chi has all that too, though. It just seems to have some difficulty escaping the image of pensioners and tree huggers doing forms in the park, which there are plenty of.

    For an onlooker, what you see in a comp will never have the glamour of a choreographed scene of the sliver screen. And where you do see flash moves, its probably because the guy on the mats is emulating his martial arts hero rather than using good technique. Good tai chi is the antithesis of hollywood martial arts; small efficient moves, no open display of power, no screaming or shouting, no wasted energy, at its best at close range and counter attacking. Not box office stuff, but very easy to recognise when you see it, and it doesn't look anything like most other external kung fu, karate, TKD or whatever. Have a look at the clip of wudangclan on the pictures sticky for a great example of this. Hint, what you're looking for is what you don't see. How's that, grass hopper? ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    I understand that Sanshou is not a style but like you said, it can be trained in a generic way.

    If fighting ability is your end goal and Sanshou competition is a reflection of this fighting ability then it seems you can attain this fighting ability without learning Tai-Chi. If learning Tai-Chi takes a long time, I think you mentioned 10 years before Tai-Chi leaves the door, then you are better off learning generic Sanshou or Thai-Boxing with a bit of Judo as you can learn it faster and spend the other time learning ground fighting or making love to your girlfriend.

    However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    smacl wrote: »

    it doesn't look anything like most other external kung fu, karate, TKD or whatever. Have a look at the clip of wudangclan on the pictures sticky for a great example of this. Hint, what you're looking for is what you don't see. How's that, grass hopper? ;)

    Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

    What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

    Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 MaybeLogic


    Ug Lee wrote: »
    However if there is more to Tai-Chi than what is shown in Sanshou competitions then this is another thing. Again, about what percentage of Tai-Chi is typically used in a Sanshou competition?

    In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.
    In my own case all the punches, takedowns, strategising etc. are Tai-Chi I may have borrowed a couple of kicks from elsewhere.
    Ug Lee wrote: »
    Actually it does look like external Kung-Fu, etc. I had a look at this clip and all I saw you doing were jabs, right crosses, I think one round kick and a few takedowns. There seemed to be some clashing going on using brute force. Not a great advertisement for Tai-Chi.

    What I am looking for, I don't see???? Now we are into a different realm.

    Again, if there is more to Tai-Chi than this,,,,,?

    Are we looking at the same clip?
    You're either too blinded by your own prejudice or you've simply no idea what you're looking at.
    Which Sanshou competitions do you fight (or have fought) in, incidentally?
    And where did you study Tai-Chi Chuan? (or 'where did you get your ideas about Tai-Chi?' is probably more accurate)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Lads we've answered this clown again and again. He's one of three things:
    1 a troll
    2 a 15 yr old who watched the ufc for the first time lately and instead of fighting in a cage has placed his mind in one
    3 and I suspect this, he's the victim of a martial arts pyramid scheme. He probably teaches some " traditional" fantacy tai chi or Kung Fu by dancing and demonstrating with compliant students. unrealistic applications taken directly as done in his forms, you know the kind of fool you thinks technique comes from form instead of the other way around. It's the way he's been taught. And like he was told and swallowed he tells his students that the real stuff can't be done in the ring ie he's mentally imprisoned in a single method or way of practice. And he won't back down ever or give up his annoyingly repetitive mantra as he has probably invested years of time and buckets of money in a failed enterprise devoid of martial truth that he convinces himself is otherwise so he can morally justify ripping off and condeming another bunch of suckers to the same folly.

    Grasshopper you have clearly demonstrated yourself to be a fool, who won't listen but then again that's how fools are made!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Do you hear his "critique" re brute force, grasshopper was probably expecting you to use empty force! Lol
    just jabs etc.... Yea guys where were the fireballs? Lol
    what was it Dan Docherty used to call these guys... Pigmy detractors!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    OP I hope this was aneye opener. This thread is a perfect synopsis of the Kung Fu world. Cheng Tin Hung used to call it "the world of truth and lies".

    A guy is asking fighters what percentage of what they do is tai chi to which we've replied but he can't accept this because it doesn't fit his limited understanding. Maybe and I hope I'm wrong but the question is even more inane and I'm being asked what percentage of the tai chi circulium is being used in sanshou competitions.
    For those of us who fight this is a strange question but for those who are out of their depth it could seem like a valid question.
    First the classics need to be quoted:
    we practice technique to gain Jin (skillful application of force) once we have Jin we can abandon technique
    so there you have it a fighter has internalized all his tai chi training and the techniques he ends up using are relevant for the situation containing tai chi principle and perhaps half a dozen different parts to different techniques. He is free and capable of adaption or - following the original purpose of tai chi Chuan.
    Then there are the non fighters the tekken guys their skill is so poor and their understanding so low level that they really think that a fight is a series of orthodox techniques you know the type: if you do this then I will use step back and repulse the monkey I'd you do that I will use step back an strike the tiger etc....
    That is the rubbish approach that has given cma a bad name. So heed my original advice ask do they compete? That way you'll be sure what you're taught is a martial art and not for a flying kick press xxy 121 xx to release the fireball.
    If you find real gung Fu it will be a great experience every aspect of it feeds the others this is what grasshopper can't grasp or perhaps refuses to: that nei gung feeds into everything sword methods can be employed in sanshou, sanshou can improve form etc... They efficiently aid one another and it doesn't tale 10 years to employ as is evident from the success of my own fighters here. Grasshopper is misquoting me I had said that that was the old expression the head instructor of another style in the nineteenth century had said that tai chi Chuan was superior to his art but he could train people to master his system in three years but a tai chi man couldn't go out for ten years' implying that to master such was a serious undertaking well it is called gung Fu and I've yet to meet a genuine teacher who has pressure tested what he does who would claim that they have "mastered" everything in ther art. In fact I doubt they'd claim to have mastered any particular part, but that's what allows someone to become competent constantly examining and testing what they do. Good luck!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭ Ug Lee


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    In Niall's case, 100% since he only ever learned Tai-Chi.

    I won't respond to my being a 15 year old, troll, etc as they distract from my questions and your answers.

    I also don't need to study Tai-Chi, take part in Sanshou competitions to question what you do. The same as you don't need to do all other types of Tai-Chi, Kung-Fu etc to question/pass judgement on them. You guys have made statements at the beginning of this thread. I am questioning these statements and digging a little deeper as there are some things that don't make sense to me.

    I am not asking what percentage of what you use in Sanshou is Tai-Chi. I am asking what percentage of Tai-Chi overall is used in Sanshou. For example are there wrist locks in Tai-Chi and if so are they used in competition?

    By the way, if your neigung is so good, why do you use chest protectors in competitions?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Chest protectors are required for iwuf recognised amateur competition. So my guys have fought without them too and with elbows and knees in pro sanda and koushu me thinks you are really clutching at straws now grasshopper. Re wrist locks that's sooo weak, but look at how my fighter during clinches has the other guys arm controled and locked out within the ruleset that's real practical chin na skill we do it with kick take downs too that's part of what scmal meant re it's what YOU don't see. See we can take the principals of leverage practiced in orthodox technique and apply it anywhere. Sounds like your Kung Fu is all in the mouth and not in the hands!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 Niall Keane


    Ug best you could do for yourself is to come out of your comfort zone and do a sanshou fight. Then you'll have answers to your "questions" and will be able to abandon hearsay beliefs. See every fighter has been in both worlds before he had fought and his then understanding and after some experience, youre like the proverbial toad in the well with a limited perspective.


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