Is Murgha child abuse?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-02-2010 7:52pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I am not ashamed, but I am aware that American influence in this country is so prevalent that mumbo jumbo has replaced sensible child-rearing practices that have been practised for thousands of years. I do not want any do-gooder social workers police telling me or my community how we should live. There are parents drinking in pubs all day with children left outside and children absent from school regularly and what do they care? Numerous children leave school illiterate which is all right but if a parent punishes a child for misbeghavior at school the parent is a criminal!

Oh, I'm not for one second saying that Irish (or Western) parents are all saints - just do a search of boards for the word 'scumbag'.

But at the same time, I need you to define exactly what you mean by "mumbo jumbo" and "sensible child-rearing-practices".

If you do not want the aurhorities telling you how to live and you don't like American influence, then moving to Ireland was a big mistake. But if you use what said state sees as abusive practices towards children, you will be treated in exactly the same way a local would.

Parents/terachers are welcome to punish their kids - but in a way that they learn a lesson, not just respond like an animal trained to fear.

Hellrazer · 02-02-2010 7:59pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I do not want any do-gooder social workers police telling me or my community how we should live.

You see thats my whole problem with this whole thread.You move to Ireland,you beat and humilate your children which by the way is illegal and then you quote this.

Sorry but when you move to a different country you obey the laws in that country.

You cant just decide to bring your customs and punishments with you and be treated the same as your home country.

Personally if I knew you were doing this to your kids and I lived next door to you I`d report you for child abuse.

Nevyn · 02-02-2010 9:08pm

Kosseegan do not make insulting statements about all irish parents.
This is the only warning you are getting on this.

Kosseegan have you done or looked at parenting classes?
How will your children cope in school when the teacher can not beat them?

paperclip2 · 03-02-2010 2:20pm

Physical 'discipline' is the ultimate in lazy parenting. Instead of inspiring a Pavlovian 'fear' response in my children I'd much rather be educating them to think for themselves.
What happens when there no longer exists the 'fear' of parental physical retribution for transgressions? At what age do you stop physically disciplining your child?

To my mind physical discipline (I use the term loosely) is counterproductive. Instead of encouraging a child to assess the situations at hand and think logically about the consequences of a certain course of action the thought process ends with 'I cant do this because I'll get beaten.' Where is the long-term benefit to the childs development? How is that encouraging the growth of independent, logical, analytical skills? How is it encouraging the concept of true personal responsibility?

Kosseegan · 08-02-2010 2:19pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Kosseegan do not make insulting statements about all irish parents.
This is the only warning you are getting on this.

Kosseegan have you done or looked at parenting classes?
How will your children cope in school when the teacher can not beat them?

I did not intend to insult all Irish parents. There are some who leave a lot to be desired.
When my childrens teachers report misbehaviour by them, the children are punished appropriately at home. We go through all of their schoolbooks every evening and any red biro must to be explained. We have every few complaints about their behaviour from their teachers and they are doing well at school.
I learned my parenting from my parents who brought me up. I do not need any courses in so called child centerd parenting or whatever the latest American fad is. I follow the parenting methods used by my parents and their parents although I must admit that I use a nylon cane, which is more hygienic, rather than the rattan canes my parents used.

Nevyn · 08-02-2010 2:54pm

I am sure there are parents in the country you were born in who also leave a lot to be desired.

The parenting courses ran and recemended by primary schools in tis country are not american fads, my parents took those courses and indeed at one stage ran them for other parents in many schools across dublin, I too have done those courses.

They focus on communicting with children and setting good boundaries and following through.

While I do commend you taking such a good interest in your children education and spending the time to ensure what is taught in school is gone over at home I can never condone the striking of a child with any sort of implement as part of disciplining them
and it could well be that you hardly ever have need to use such an implement and the existence is enough to chastise your children but again it is something which I can not condone.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-02-2010 3:07pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I did not intend to insult all Irish parents. There are some who leave a lot to be desired.
When my childrens teachers report misbehaviour by them, the children are punished appropriately at home. We go through all of their schoolbooks every evening and any red biro must to be explained. We have every few complaints about their behaviour from their teachers and they are doing well at school.
I learned my parenting from my parents who brought me up. I do not need any courses in so called child centerd parenting or whatever the latest American fad is. I follow the parenting methods used by my parents and their parents although I must admit that I use a nylon cane, which is more hygienic, rather than the rattan canes my parents used.

Again, you dismniss things that, I blieve, you are ignorant of. I asked for examples of "mumbo jumbo" and "sensible child-rearing practices" a few posts ago and I would like to add "American fads" to the list. I believe you are using buzzwords and challenge you to explain your understanding of them.

What you are doing, is most definitely child abuse. I can see why you want to stay away from and distrust social workers. If your children were growing up in an Islamic country, you might have gotten away with it becaue of tradition, but here, you need to think about what happens if they grow up to discover that such discipline was NOT widespread and disagree with all this to the extent they may no longer wish to have a relationship with you. This has happened to a lot of traditional families here in the past.

di11on · 08-02-2010 4:09pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I must admit that I use a nylon cane, which is more hygienic, rather than the rattan canes my parents used.

Do you really think it's necessary to use weapons on your children?

Hellrazer · 08-02-2010 5:31pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I use a nylon cane, which is more hygienic, rather than the rattan canes my parents used.

So you mean its easier to clean the blood off then.An absolute disgrace.

Kosseegan · 08-02-2010 11:27pm

Hellrazer wrote: »

So you mean its easier to clean the blood off then.An absolute disgrace.

I only give strokes in parallel. I do not use a cross stroke. that way there is no broken skin and hence no blood. A nylon can can be wiped with surgical spirit before and after use and so is always perfectly clean. This is not effective with wooden canes because they cannot be cleaned in that manner.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-02-2010 11:38pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I only give strokes in parallel. I do not use a cross stroke. that way there is no broken skin and hence no blood. A nylon can can be wiped with surgical spirit before and after use and so is always perfectly clean. This is not effective with wooden canes because they cannot be cleaned in that manner.

I read on another thread a story about an ex-US-soldier using waterboarding as a punishment technique on kids. He got jail. Is this the "American fad" you refer to? Because if it is, it is just as bad as the stuff you come out with.

With apologies to Htaedydal and the the other mods of this forum who may have to ban me for this, but you are, pretty much by definition, a child abuser. The fact that you are methodical about it doesn't change this. The fact that you wish to keep it hidden pushes you further into murky waters.

I've said my piece here. I think we both know where you stand.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-02-2010 2:57am

Kosseegan wrote: »

I did not intend to insult all Irish parents. There are some who leave a lot to be desired.
When my childrens teachers report misbehaviour by them, the children are punished appropriately at home. We go through all of their schoolbooks every evening and any red biro must to be explained. We have every few complaints about their behaviour from their teachers and they are doing well at school.
I learned my parenting from my parents who brought me up. I do not need any courses in so called child centerd parenting or whatever the latest American fad is. I follow the parenting methods used by my parents and their parents although I must admit that I use a nylon cane, which is more hygienic, rather than the rattan canes my parents used.

You have no idea how to raise a child effectively. Not a clue. You may think you do but you don't. Using this illegal, cruel abuse makes me question your abilities as a parent. To resort to such base methods, then claiming that it's ok because your parents and their parents done it, is just sickening. Your children are children, not dogs, treat them as such.

Classes are needed to remove the ignorance parents have of rearing children, funny how you think you know everything about raising a child when you obviously don't have a clue. Your posts really grind my gears. If only there was a way to report you for this, I would.

Kosseegan wrote: »

I only give strokes in parallel. I do not use a cross stroke. that way there is no broken skin and hence no blood. A nylon can can be wiped with surgical spirit before and after use and so is always perfectly clean. This is not effective with wooden canes because they cannot be cleaned in that manner.

Are you taking the mick? Seriously? You need more than parenting classes it seems.

I think I will report you for trolling...

nesf · 09-02-2010 3:28am

Kosseegan wrote: »

I only give strokes in parallel. I do not use a cross stroke. that way there is no broken skin and hence no blood. A nylon can can be wiped with surgical spirit before and after use and so is always perfectly clean. This is not effective with wooden canes because they cannot be cleaned in that manner.

Banned.

VolvicMinerial · 09-02-2010 12:21pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

My country is in the East. i am not going to say which country because we are only a small community in Ireland and I do not wish to be identified and harassed by the social services.

You obviously feel the punishment you use is abuse to come out with the above statement

witchgirl26 · 09-02-2010 1:03pm

I'm not a parent so can't comment with full knowledge of parenting but I really don't think that Murgha punishment is a good idea at all.

I was only ever hit once as a child by my parents & that was when I was about 4 & reaching towards a lit candle. My mam slapped my hand so that I wouldn't touch it and hurt myself & then explained why she'd done it.

I don't think any form of physical punishment like hitting or something like murgha is a good way of teaching children right from wrong.

Maxton Helpful Sandalwood wrote: »

Punishment should not be used at all. Simple as.

I don't agree with this. If you do something illegal or wrong as an adult, you get punished by the law so why not punish children? Teach them that if they do something wrong they will have to face the consequences of doing that wrong & follow through on it. I'm not saying going overboard with the punishment but giving younger ones a time out on the stairs or taking away toys & privileges for a reasonable length of time dependent on what has been done doesn't seem cruel but rather sensible.

On the other hand I do agree with the positive re-inforcement & rewarding children when they do something good & right. Then I think they will get a rounded view of actions and re-actions & know that when you do something good, you will get something in return but if you do something wrong you get punished.

di11on · 09-02-2010 4:56pm

Maxton Helpful Sandalwood wrote:

Punishment should not be used at all. Simple as.

witchgirl26 wrote:

I don't agree with this. If you do something illegal or wrong as an adult, you get punished by the law so why not punish children?

...

Punishing children is not the only way to teach them what is desirable behaviour and what isn't.

What are we trying to achieve in the end? I believe it's to teach children what is desirable/acceptable behaviour and what isn't.

And why do we want to do that? Because we love them and want to prepare them for the world and to be functional, happy, confident human beings that have a positive sense of self worth.

Now, if we can do that without inflicting pain of any kind, isn't that so much better. There are more positive ways of achieving this than punishment. Allowing children to face (in a controlled way) the natural consequences of their actions, rewarding them for good/desirable behaviour, spending time with them and contributing to their sense of positive self worth... to name a few.

That's not so say punishment doesn't have a place, but inflicting pain of any kind isn't always the most effective way to teach them.

I believe love is an action, not only an emotion. Loving our children involves teaching them and preparing them for life. Why does it always have to be about punishment?

witchgirl26 · 09-02-2010 5:14pm

di11on - I don't believe in inflicting pain on children either. Far from it. I do think though that they need to be shown the consequences of actions. For example my nephews - one of them pushed over the other & grabbed the toy he was playing with. Their mother saw this & took the one who was in the wrong to the stairs where she made him sit on the bottom step by himself with no toys for 2 minutes. At the end of this she sat down beside him, explained what he'd done was wrong, why it was wrong & asked him to apologise to his brother. I don't see how doing something like this is a bad thing at all.

They do get rewards and treats when they do the right thing - for example at Christmas when they shared their toys with the other children there without being prompted too. I don't believe personally in either extreme of just punishment or just positive sayings. It's a balance of the two.

As I said above, I was only hit once as a child & having talked to my mam about it, it was more fear on her part to get my hand away from the candle as quickly as possible. I was punished appropriately when I did something wrong but praised for good things I did & encouraged in things I seemed good at. I turned out pretty ok with a good sense of self worth & an understanding of right & wrong so think I'll follow my parents example.

Thick Tights · 09-02-2010 5:40pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I only give strokes in parallel. I do not use a cross stroke. that way there is no broken skin and hence no blood. A nylon can can be wiped with surgical spirit before and after use and so is always perfectly clean. This is not effective with wooden canes because they cannot be cleaned in that manner.

Looks like he was right about this.

First of all, supplying synthetic canes is NOT a business of mine, it is more to do with trying to encourage people to use better equipment and removing the usual objection of price - synthetic canes are normally much dearer than rattan. Not now. If you use the same cane on more than one person - and most especially if you ever draw blood, you need to consider the advantages in having a cane that can be PROPERLY disinfected easily and quickly. For legal reasons - of course - these items are sold for novelty value only.

Nevyn · 09-02-2010 6:02pm

That does not make it an acceptable parenting practice.
That site you linked to is a bdsm site, not safe for work and as it state legally those canes can not be sold as a weapon.
Anyone who is into such kinks should only be enguaging in them with another consenting adult and not hitting children.

Nevyn · 09-02-2010 6:07pm

Thick Tights banned for being a re reg of Kosseegan to get around the forum ban and with that I am locking this thread.

Is Murgha child abuse?

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