Is Murgha child abuse?

browndress

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

silverharp

thankfully I had to look that one up. Seems a bit exteme, I would have thought at that age access to mobile phone credit or not would be more then enough. lol


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murga_punishment

Murgha (also spelled murga) (Urdu: مرغا); is a form of corporal punishment used in South Asia, (India, Pakistan) primarily in educational institutions [1], and by the police who use it as a punishment for petty crimes and eve teasing (sexual harassment), usually administered in public-view [2][3][4][5]

Murgha means Rooster (literally "male adult chicken") in Urdu and Hindi. This is a punishment in which the punished person takes the position of a "murgha" [6]. This is done by squatting, and then bringing the arms between the legs and firmly holding the ears. It can become very painful after a few minutes, and can also be used as a position for spanking, though it is rarely used.

Khannie

We use grounding and / or lack of television on the youngfella (he's getting more defiant too ). He also kept leaving his bike out in the rain overnight so we prevented him from using it for increasing periods until it magically stopped happening. I wouldn't let defiance = corporal punishment, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

littlebitdull

Even on children aged 9 & 11 - the old standards of time out, grounding, taking away priviladges will work. Take away their computer/tv/phone time. Don't allow them out with their pals.

But your alternative ... no not a good idea. At all.

Nevyn

I don't think you have to inflict pain of any sort to disapline a child esp a child of those ages. Have you tried putting then in a restricted time out, making them stand with thier hands down beside thier sides and thier toes and nose touching a wall. Making them stand facking the wall in such a fashion and not being able to fidget or look around with out having an extra minute added on, works pretty well.

CrazyRabbit

The problem with any type of corporal punishment is that it stops being effective as the child becomes a teen.

Morally, it may or may not be wrong, but practically, it's not very helpful for the child in the long run. Teaching kids self-discipline at at young age is far far more effective.

Example.....A friends 6 year old son would run off whenever we took him to public places. He ignored instructions to 'come back' and would have to be held tightly by the arm to prevent him from running off. He was given a few slaps on the backside by his mother and some empty threats. It made no difference.

I suggested giving the lad some simple rules of what was acceptable and what was not, along with predefined punishments for breaking those rules. (loss of a toy, no tv etc) The rules were explained to him, and why they were needed. He was given a list of 4 possible punishments, with a warning that he would have to choose one if he broke a rule. Refusing to choose a punishment would result in all 4 punishments being applied.

He broke a rule within minutes. He was stopped, and told to choose a punishment. He refused and started crying, so all 4 punishments where applied (no more empty threats). His mum continued with this 'training' and the next time he was taken out (to the zoo), he didn't run off once and he did everything he was told to do. In just 3 weeks he was a totally changed child. He quickly realised that he had to punish himself whenever he broke a rule. Quite an effective deterrent!

Dilynnio

browndress wrote: »

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

And one wonders how these kids grow up to be messed up!

Parents have a lot to answer for!

we'llallhavetea_old

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

The problem with any type of corporal punishment is that it stops being effective as the child becomes a teen.

Morally, it may or may not be wrong, but practically, it's not very helpful for the child in the long run. Teaching kids self-discipline at at young age is far far more effective.

Example.....A friends 6 year old son would run off whenever we took him to public places. He ignored instructions to 'come back' and would have to be held tightly by the arm to prevent him from running off. He was given a few slaps on the backside by his mother and some empty threats. It made no difference.

I suggested giving the lad some simple rules of what was acceptable and what was not, along with predefined punishments for breaking those rules. (loss of a toy, no tv etc) The rules were explained to him, and why they were needed. He was given a list of 4 possible punishments, with a warning that he would have to choose one if he broke a rule. Refusing to choose a punishment would result in all 4 punishments being applied.

He broke a rule within minutes. He was stopped, and told to choose a punishment. He refused and started crying, so all 4 punishments where applied (no more empty threats). His mum continued with this 'training' and the next time he was taken out (to the zoo), he didn't run off once and he did everything he was told to do. In just 3 weeks he was a totally changed child. He quickly realised that he had to punish himself whenever he broke a rule. Quite an effective deterrent!

genius!

chocgirl

How long do they have to hold it for?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The problem with physical punishments is that, to a certain extent, the just make kids angrier. Especially the defiant ones. The problem with this one, is that you need a submissive child for it to work. If your kids are defiant, you're wasting your time.

Example:

"You've been a bold girl. Get into the Mughra position for five minutes.
"No!"

What you going to do now that you wouldn't have done in the first place?

tudlytops

I panished my kids with simple things, like taking away toys, privileges,etc., but I am strict and do what i say I'll do.

Example. one of them at the age og about 7.
I told her to tidy up their room, i told her once, i told her twice, the 3rd time i went into the room and said "you have 30 min to tidy up, if you don't i will pick up every item out of place and give it away", sure 30 min later it was still messy, so I picked up 2 black bags full of stuff, made her come with me and gave them to a neighbour who had a few kids and little money, some or so so toys, some were really nice toys, no bother to me, I didn't buy her new ones. She learn her lesson until today and she's now 19.

Another time we were going to the Zoo and one of them stole some money from me, I think he was about 9, i recovered the money, told him he could still come to the Zoo but he would have no money to spend and no allowance for the next 2 month's or so, when we got to the Zoo the other kids all bough food for the animals. Ice cream, pressies, etc, except one, he learn the lesson too.

My parents used physical punishment on me and my siblings, i was always very defiant and it didn't help, i just got worse, to give you an example, after all the beatings didn't work they tried to lock me in the bedroom I got out trhough the window, so they locked the window i got the bed on fire so they had to open the bedroom door and i got out anyway.

Another time i was out late with my sister and she said I think we should go home, I asked why, she said couse mum and dad are going to be mad, so i said, so what, they'll hit me, big deal.

I know this is extreme and most kids don't do it, but i found that if you have one that is more defiant then the norm it will only make matters worse.

tudlytops

Also don't forget to reward them when they do nice stuff, or do as they were asked.

it goes both ways

nesf

tudlytops wrote: »

Also don't forget to reward them when they do nice stuff, or do as they were asked.

it goes both ways

Dear God no! Spare the whip/crowbar, spoil the child as my parents used to say. :pac:

browndress

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Nice to see that parents are actively seeking to find new and innovative ways to PUNISH their children. Maybe you should question yourselves as parents and maybe educate yourself a little before becomming parents.

Punishment IS the worst thing you can do, your children will never be "normal" if you are to punish them, be it mental or physical. It's extremely negative and does more harm than good.

Do some research into possitive reinforcement, be warned though, this actually requires you to have something of a brain, some effort and determination. Since punishment is so much easier, I can't see many people dropping it any time soon.

If you are going to force your child to hold a position that causes pain, more like a form of torture than anything else, then you are not fit to raise a child, regardless of what you think. Very very bad parent...

nesf

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

Forcing your child to assume a position where they are guaranteed to feel pain as a form of punishment is really not that different to using a cane in effect or intent. Either way you are using physical pain to punish the child.

Whether it is child abuse is a legal question and not one that can be answered here. I can't imagine social services taking a particularly nice view of it though.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Adding to what I said earlier, you have already given up on your child when you are looking for new ways to punish them. You have already assumed that they will always need to be punished. You have basically assumed that there is no other alternative but to try out new punishments. This isn't some animal to test on, it's your child FFS. Be very very ashamed of yourself as a parent...

tudlytops

nesf wrote: »

Dear God no! Spare the whip/crowbar, spoil the child as my parents used to say. :pac:

I never hit or otherwise physically punished my kids, and always rewarded them, they all turned out just fine, in college or working.

I've been on the receiving end of a whip as you call it, not nice or productive.

Kids should respect you, not fear you.

tudlytops

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

I think most people here have replaied to that question with a big YES, but if you need it in plain wording.

YES it is child abuse

You keep thinking that way and you'll see how quick you'll lose them.

Ickle Magoo

The fact you even have to ask whether it may be considered child abuse should give you a clue as to suitability, surely.

I don't think using pain &/or shame to make a child listen - or force some kind of respect of your power - in lieu of any effective positive parenting techniques is going to solve any issues about defiance in the longer term, btw.

CrazyRabbit

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

I'm pretty sure I answered your question in the 1st two paragraphs of my 1st reply. And I took the extra step of outlining alternative actions for behavior modification.

Kosseegan

I do not think murgha itself is child abuse but using the cane in association with it may be. There was a case in England a few years ago where a boy who was beaten with a cane by his stepfather, complained to the European Court of Human Rights. The European Court took the son's side of it.
Children need to be punished. I am sick of all of these parents who insist that "my >>>> would never do ,,,,. I do not believe in punishment criticism ..." Why are there so many teenagers being carried home drunk every night of the week? Why are elderly people living in fear in their own homes? Why are young people murdered outside discos? Why are teachers retiring early in droves? The reason is that there is an almost complete breakdown in discipline and manners among children. Parents think that because a child has got into college that their parenting is an unqualified success. The same student may be causing mayhem on a daily basis.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Kosseegan wrote: »

I do not think murgha itself is child abuse but using the cane in association with it may be. There was a case in England a few years ago where a boy who was beaten with a cane by his stepfather, complained to the European Court of Human Rights. The European Court took the son's side of it.
Children need to be punished. I am sick of all of these parents who insist that "my >>>> would never do ,,,,. I do not believe in punishment criticism ..." Why are there so many teenagers being carried home drunk every night of the week? Why are elderly people living in fear in their own homes? Why are young people murdered outside discos? Why are teachers retiring early in droves? The reason is that there is an almost complete breakdown in discipline and manners among children. Parents think that because a child has got into college that their parenting is an unqualified success. The same student may be causing mayhem on a daily basis.

Why are all these bad things happening? Well bad parenting combined with years of physical and mental abuse (punishment).

Children do not need to be punished, parents do. There's more ways to raise a child, punishment is the lazy and cowards way of doing it. Look into positive reinforcement... Punishment is wrong in all aspects of raising a child.

Deliverance

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Deliverance wrote: »

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

Wow, what a load of bullcrap... really, what an ignorant statement.

Jo King

Deliverance wrote: »

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

Very profound, but what does it mean? What is the relevance to this discussion?

LegacyUser

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

Kosseegan

stillatschool wrote: »

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

You are very lucky. You obviously have parents who love you and who are bringing you up properly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

stillatschool wrote: »

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

There's no such thing as a "good punishment". Is one of your parents a Christian Brother, or something?

anathea

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a "good punishment". Is one of your parents a Christian Brother, or something?

There are of course good punishments. I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

Kosseegan

anathea wrote: »

I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

You might be getting into child abuse there as the knees become marked after about 5 minutes. have you considered murgha?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kosseegan wrote: »

You might be getting into child abuse there as the knees become marked after about 5 minutes. have you considered murgha?

What is it with you and barbaric insane punishments? You want teenagers caned "on their bottoms" according to a different thread and now you want this "Murgha" ****?

Seriosuly, cards on the table: do you get off on this kinda stuff?

Hellrazer

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What is it with you and barbaric insane punishments? You want teenagers caned "on their bottoms" according to a different thread and now you want this "Murgha" ****?
Seriosuly, cards on the table: do you get off on this kinda stuff?

Agreed 100%.Thats just unbelievable that someone can cause harm to their own child in a manner like that.

We just withdraw their luxuries--TV,no sweets,extra homework,mobile phone etc.

anathea

Kosseegan wrote: »

You might be getting into child abuse there as the knees become marked after about 5 minutes. have you considered murgha?

Haven't tried it. It looks interesting.

straricco

browndress wrote: »

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

Sounds degrading to me to be honest. And to degrade anyone never mind a child doesn't change their behaviour, look at statistics of reoffending for people coming out of Mountjoy.

Making a mockery of your child will eventually turn them against you when they are old enough to think things out for themselves.

straricco

anathea wrote: »

There are of course good punishments. I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

Are you for real? If yes, then I think you must be mentally ill, like alot of bible bashing weirdos. God help your child.

Nevyn

While we may find the parenting practices of other to be irrational and abbhorant lets not start with personal abuse.

I think that if a parent has to inflict phyical pain on a child a punishment they are not inventive enough tbh.

Ickle Magoo

I view kids as little people. I'm a person, I make mistakes, I do the wrong thing, I don't expect my husband or my boss to hit me or shame me or make me suffer to teach me a lesson. My children get treated with the same respect, empathy and understanding that I want them to give to the rest of the world.

I had a boss that was an absolutely nightmare, yelling, pushing, threatening, making fun of people and embarrassing them. People started ripping him off, deliberately slacking, there was no motivation to actually have a good work ethic & his business went bust thanks to the high turnover of staff and the low customer service they gave thanks to the low morale - compare that with my last boss who was really kind and understanding, showing patience & trust - long term staff who work hard for her and a thriving business. I don't think parenting is a million miles away from any other kind of people management.

dvpower

browndress wrote: »

I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

I would have thought that at that age alternative punishments would be a no brainer.

Mum, can you give me a lift to my friends house? "No, you didn't do as you were told earlier."
Mum, can a have a few quid? "No, you didn't do as you were told earlier."
Mum, can I go on the school trip? "No, you didn't do as you were told earlier."
Mum, can I go to the disco? "No, you didn't do as you were told earlier."

If you have to take on new and interesting forms of corporal punishment, then you've gone badly wrong imo.

dvpower

anathea wrote: »

There are of course good punishments. I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

Wow.

Are you planning on maintaining a relationship with your daughter past the point where she is old enough to leave home?

nesf

straricco wrote: »

Are you for real? If yes, then I think you must be mentally ill, like alot of bible bashing weirdos. God help your child.

Some parents in this forum, including myself, suffer from mental illness so please don't talk such crap in this forum thanks.

straricco

nesf wrote: »

Some parents in this forum, including myself, suffer from mental illness so please don't talk such crap in this forum thanks.

Im sorry if you don't like my opinion, but my opinion is what it is, and thats what the forum is for. And as for my mentally ill comment, I have 1st hand experience of looking after someone who was mentally ill so did not mean any offence to you. But in saying that, abusing a child is not the action of a sane person.

themysteriouson

Maxton Helpful Sandalwood wrote: »

Nice to see that parents are actively seeking to find new and innovative ways to PUNISH their children. Maybe you should question yourselves as parents and maybe educate yourself a little before becomming parents.

Punishment IS the worst thing you can do, your children will never be "normal" if you are to punish them, be it mental or physical. It's extremely negative and does more harm than good.

Do some research into possitive reinforcement, be warned though, this actually requires you to have something of a brain, some effort and determination. Since punishment is so much easier, I can't see many people dropping it any time soon.

If you are going to force your child to hold a position that causes pain, more like a form of torture than anything else, then you are not fit to raise a child, regardless of what you think. Very very bad parent...

Although most of us would indeed cringe at the thought of that kind of punishment unfortunately you cannot preech to someone how to raise their child. You can only give helpful suggestions.
On the earlier statement that you made about people who discipline their children to be brainless i have one question are: Are you a parent??

Grounding and removing privileges from children are perfectly acceptable means of discipline in my opinion. If you dont let them know that bad actions have conseqences how will they learn?

Deliverance

I deny my child a bedtime story out of two stories that she is allowed. It is enough because she gains pleasure and interaction from two stories. In 'extreme' circumstances of misbehaviour she gets no stories and goes to bed thinking about her actions for the day.

The murgha thing? That is akin to corporal punishment i.e. pain. In Ireland corporal punishment is banned and rightfully so.

Oldfool

Deliverance wrote: »

The murgha thing? That is akin to corporal punishment i.e. pain. In Ireland corporal punishment is banned and rightfully so.

Corporal Punishment is not banned in Ireland and rightly so. the only exception is corporal punishment by teachers.

eviltwin

I think if you have to resort to any kind of physical abuse to discipline a child you've lost the battle.

I've never used any kind of physical punishment because I have never had to and its not that my child is an angel - far from it - but I would never in a million years raise a hand to her. There are other ways to teach kids right from wrong and personally I think if more people put the effort in to actually teach their kids rather than try and deal with the aftermath of "bad" behaviour we wouldnt need half as much discipline as we seem to use

I was smacked as a child. My parents weren't abusive and we only got smacked when we acted up ( in their eyes, half the time we just made mistakes )

Unfortunatley my father once hit me so hard I fell backwards and split my head open on the corner of a table which ended up in me being rushed to hospital. We were never hit again.

Deliverance

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I view kids as little people. I'm a person, I make mistakes, I do the wrong thing, I don't expect my husband or my boss to hit me or shame me or make me suffer to teach me a lesson. My children get treated with the same respect, empathy and understanding that I want them to give to the rest of the world.

I had a boss that was an absolutely nightmare, yelling, pushing, threatening, making fun of people and embarrassing them. People started ripping him off, deliberately slacking, there was no motivation to actually have a good work ethic & his business went bust thanks to the high turnover of staff and the low customer service they gave thanks to the low morale - compare that with my last boss who was really kind and understanding, showing patience & trust - long term staff who work hard for her and a thriving business. I don't think parenting is a million miles away from any other kind of people management.

That is exactly the same philosophy that I have. Absolutely spot on. My own child is v.well behaved because she has the respect of her parents albeit seperated. We both think the same way and the result is amazing with regard to our child. We have an inquisitive child who loves to learn, is v.happy and never recieved a single painful physical punishment in all her 4yrs.

Also to add to the above post and further qualify the point... Both myself and my ex worked in places where we both gained charge (supervisory, training positions etc) and treated the employees with the same mantra /attitude, i.e. a hard work working ethic and respect for others and as a result were successful as such in our own areas via the respect from those we were responsible for.

I can draw on excellent references from previous employers as can my ex in her own field as a result.

The best reference at the end of it all for me is that, when my daughter grows up to be a woman and looks back on how her parents put her first, answered all her questions, exposed her to life in the best way possible via excercise, dance classes, music etc. Because that is simply what being responsible for another person is about (whether they are kids or adults).

Authority is a position of hard work and responsibility. Sometimes it seems like a thankless task. But if it is done right with understanding of the individuals involved then you get damned good results. This as Ickle said, is akin to adults as much as it is towards kids, kids in my view are little people.

I'm glad to see someone thinking the same way on this thread.

we'llallhavetea_old

i'm voting no for the "murgha" punishment.
i just can't understand how anyone would cause physical pain to a defenseless child, there are plenty of other ways to discipline children and they have been discussed in this thread. use them instead!

Kosseegan

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What is it with you and barbaric insane punishments? You want teenagers caned "on their bottoms" according to a different thread and now you want this "Murgha" ****?

Seriosuly, cards on the table: do you get off on this kinda stuff?

In my country murgha is a commonly imposed punishment. Always it is backed up with the cane for repeat or more serious wrondoing. There are no rowdy drunken teenagers in my country and children do not give cheek to parents or teachers. Irish parents have forgotten how to punish and now may not be allowed to.

Hellrazer

Kosseegan wrote: »

In my country

You are not in your country now and over here the majority of people would call this practice child abuse.

~me~

Kosseegan wrote: »

In my country murgha is a commonly imposed punishment. Always it is backed up with the cane for repeat or more serious wrondoing. There are no rowdy drunken teenagers in my country and children do not give cheek to parents or teachers. Irish parents have forgotten how to punish and now may not be allowed to.

well being honest with you, rowdy teenagers is more than likely due to a lack of respect on behalf of the teenagers, for society and their parents. i somehow think this lack of respect is more likely to be in retalliation to the lack of respect their parents showed them by punishing them in cruel ways or any other severe (to put it mildly) parenting techniques than to parents who always talked openly to their children about their wrongdoings and gave them a suitable punishment which allowed them to think about why they're being punished instead of how much the punishment hurts them.

i also think that its a lack of parenting at all that leads to children being "bold" or whatever you want to call it. the majority of rowdy teenagers as you put it, are from families that just dont give a toss about the kids. they let them wander round the streets at all hours asking random people to buy them smokes or drink. this wouldn't happen if the parents were discussing issues and punishing their children in a suitable manner because at least then the parent is actually facing their responsibility as a parent and not pretending it doesnt exist. it doesnt matter how "mild" you think the punishment is, as long as the parent is doing something to make the child think about their actions (and not the pain of their punishment) then i think they're doing their best, which is all any parent can do really.

my two cents!