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Handicap increases

  • 08-02-2010 3:42pm
    #1
    AldilaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭


    In our club .1 was automatically added to your handicap if you didn't return your card (N/R) once you entered a competition on the computer. Towards the end of last season this system changed that you only got .1 if you entered your card into the computer. Was this something that the GUI changed ? If this is the case then golfers who want to keep their handicaps low can decide not to return bad cards in order to keep their handicap artificially low. My own view is that clubs should force all golfers to return all scores to get an accurate CSS and penalise offenders. Any views on this ?
    Tagged:


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Comments

  • #2
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Couldn't agree more with you.

    As for your query, I think there was an issue over players not signing into the computer, so that they could NR without the computer noticing, or if they had a good score, sign-in and enter their score at the same time afterwards.

    There was something mentioned at the start of last year but I'm not sure if there's been any real change. It p*sses me off to see guys trying to dodge .1. Also, to be fair, some are embarassed these days with howdidido showing the full field to all.


  • #3
    stevire
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭stevire


    What about the other end of the scale - wanting to keep your handicap high? Would this not be a relatively easy way to build up a handicap if you did score well?


  • #4
    AldilaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭AldilaMan


    Playing partners should report anyone who betters CSS without returning the card. It would be clear from Howdidido whether the card was returned or not. It's very annoying partnering someone in team events playing off their ego handicap which you know they haven't played to for some time. Again I reiterate, it's up to clubs to enforce returns from all competitors in qualifying competitions.


  • #5
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...


  • #6
    Miley Byrne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭Miley Byrne


    AldilaMan wrote: »
    In our club .1 was automatically added to your handicap if you didn't return your card (N/R) once you entered a competition on the computer. Towards the end of last season this system changed that you only got .1 if you entered your card into the computer. Was this something that the GUI changed ? If this is the case then golfers who want to keep their handicaps low can decide not to return bad cards in order to keep their handicap artificially low. My own view is that clubs should force all golfers to return all scores to get an accurate CSS and penalise offenders. Any views on this ?

    Id prefer if clubs didn't hand out .1s for NRs than giving them out. Yes, some will have a handicap which is too low. But this is not as bad as the fellas who enter comps, return no card and play off 16 or 17 till the Captain's prize. Then they have a score, get cut and build up their .1s again till the next major. The fellas keeping their handicaps high are a bigger scourge than the fellas keeping it low for ego purposes IMO.


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  • #7
    AldilaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭AldilaMan


    Word travels fast in golf. I played with a guy yesterday who knows the person involved. (He was actually off +1 i.e. giving a shot to the course !)He was trying to get a .1 to get back to scratch.


  • #8
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,007 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    denisoc16 wrote: »
    Id prefer if clubs didn't hand out .1s for NRs than giving them out. Yes, some will have a handicap which is too low. But this is not as bad as the fellas who enter comps, return no card and play off 16 or 17 till the Captain's prize. Then they have a score, get cut and build up their .1s again till the next major. The fellas keeping their handicaps high are a bigger scourge than the fellas keeping it low for ego purposes IMO.

    Clubs should distinguish between real 0.1's and NR's. You have to be eligible for the majors in most clubs these days.


  • #9
    Miley Byrne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭Miley Byrne


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Clubs should distinguish between real 0.1's and NR's. You have to be eligible for the majors in most clubs these days.

    Sorry Greebo,

    How do you mean?


  • #10
    Daithio9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Daithio9


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...
    Yea I heard the same thing from my girlfriend's sisters best friends brother in laws 3rd cousins son, so it must true.
    Seriously though this kinda of thing isn't really the issue or even close to same thing as people who intentionally get .1's back. Granted they both affect CSS but 1 of them is fooling themselves while the other is trying to fool everyone else and tbh afaics neither are very successful at what they do.


  • #11
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    This is a bit of a pet hate of mine, I have to admit. I'm low single figures myself and always return my card (to the extent that i got back a shot and a half last year that I didn't particularly want).

    IMO there are far too many low handicap golfers in the, say, +2 to 2 handicap range that are nowhere near able to play to it. Sure, on the occassional good day they might but thats about it. You only have to look at scratch cup results or the scores in the Championships each time to see half the field in the mid 80s and worse. Obviously anyone can have a bad day but I know guys off scratch or thereabouts that never return a card unless its in the buffer zone - they'd probably be decent 3 or 4 handicappers truth be known. Another trick is they go out in the competition without actually entering on the computer and only if they have a good score do they "enter" and "enter a score" after the round. I think clubs should certainly apply the automatic 0.1 for NRs, with a handicap suspension after 3 incidents.

    The big problem is that it effects all the other players. In club competitions the CSS can be thrown out by a lot of bad scores missing from the calculation and on another level, the cut-off point for the East, West etc is artificially too low thus preventing players deserving of a place from entering. I did a stint on the competitions committee in our place and could see it every week, approx 30% of entrants not returning cards.

    Hope this didn't seem like a mindless rant, its anything but.

    I do believe its an issue the GUI need to sort out but sometimes i think it suits them to say there's x amount of plus handicap golfers in Ireland (don't know why) maybe it justifies something somewhere along the line.

    A final point, I think its somewhat of a myth about guys building handicaps - generally speaking. Most guys who do that aren't then able to turn it on on demand (say, for captain's day). If there are 2 or 3 genuine "bandits" at most in any club thats about it, in my humble opinion.

    Now I'll sit back and wait for the torrent of mails disagreeing with me :)

    Cheers


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  • #12
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Daithio9 wrote: »
    Yea I heard the same thing from my girlfriend's sisters best friends brother in laws 3rd cousins son, so it must true.

    Get the boat Daithi. I know the full details - hardly going to post them on a public forum!
    Daithio9 wrote: »
    Seriously though this kinda of thing isn't really the issue or even close to same thing as people who intentionally get .1's back.

    You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.


  • #13
    stumpypeeps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭stumpypeeps


    It seems to me the fundamental requirement for a proper handicap is the honesty and integrity of the golfer. Unfortunately, thats impossible to police.


  • #14
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.[/QUOTE]

    +1 to that ShriekingSheet, exactly the point, a mix of ego and entry into the championships.


  • #15
    f22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭f22


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...

    Even worse Sheet, he doctored the card for 38, enough for 2nd place.

    Disgraceful


  • #16
    f22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭f22


    AldilaMan wrote: »
    Word travels fast in golf. I played with a guy yesterday who knows the person involved. (He was actually off +1 i.e. giving a shot to the course !)He was trying to get a .1 to get back to scratch.

    Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

    Incidentally he lives only a few hundred yards from me.


  • #17
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I'm undecided as to what the system should be.
    In our place you MUST sign & swipe in before going out to play.
    You enter your score afterwards... not swiping before you play = DQ
    Should you get .1 back for a no return? Most likely the guy has had a crap score and doesn't want to bother to hand in his card. Though not ideal, the .1 can be justified.
    I like the idea of a sanction for x number of NR's... a couple in a season can be explained because we all might get called away or whatever but really you need a sanction to 'force' people to return all their cards.


  • #18
    Miley Byrne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭Miley Byrne


    Licksy wrote: »
    I'm undecided as to what the system should be.
    In our place you MUST sign & swipe in before going out to play.
    You enter your score afterwards... not swiping before you play = DQ
    Should you get .1 back for a no return? Most likely the guy has had a crap score and doesn't want to bother to hand in his card. Though not ideal, the .1 can be justified.
    I like the idea of a sanction for x number of NR's... a couple in a season can be explained because we all might get called away or whatever but really you need a sanction to 'force' people to return all their cards.

    I see now how it can be abused either way, ie fellas tryin to gain a .1 or avoid a .1 depending on which way they want to go. I hadn't thought of the low guys trying to stay low for entry into the big comps. I have only come across the fellas gaining .1s for higher handicaps for classics and majors etc. I agree with Licksy though that there should be sanctions after a certain number of NRs. Or else be asked to explain by the club why there was a NR afterwards. At the moment there just is no follow up at all. (at my home club anyway, and I presume at most clubs). There is nothing to stop/deter people from playing 5/6 holes in a comp and heading away home then safe in the knowledge that a .1 is in the bag (as happens at my club as the 5th green as next to the carpark!!):(

    Solutions?

    Not sure....it would be very hard for the comp sec/handicap sec to try to meet & question every perpetrator. Maybe, as Licksy says, a type of "3 strikes and you're out of the next major or certain number of singles events/etc etc" type of deterrent.


  • #19
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    f22 wrote: »
    Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

    WTF? What was he putting +1 on the card for??


  • #20
    G1032
    Registered Users Posts: 6,908 ✭✭✭G1032


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.

    This was a problem with an individual in my home club. Young lad. Never handed in point ones and as a result kept his handicap low enough to gain entry to the Boys Tournaments and deny honest young golfers a place. It's cheating. Plain and simple. You might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not hand in a point one in order to qualify for a tournament.


  • #21
    Daithio9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Daithio9


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    Get the boat Daithi. I know the full details - hardly going to post them on a public forum!
    Ok I'll get my coat.
    Btw what did the playing partner who signed his card do about it when he discovered the discrepancy?.
    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.
    Fair enough that is a serious issue alright and I think all NR's should get .1's and I agree with Licksy and others who think there should a sanction like a 3 month suspension from all competitive for 3 NR's and repeat offenders should get 12 months, e.g. If they have 3 NR's in any of the following 5 years after the first offence then they get a ban for 12 months.


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  • #22
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    ronaldochokes wrote: »
    This was a problem with an individual in my home club. Young lad. Never handed in point ones and as a result kept his handicap low enough to gain entry to the Boys Tournaments and deny honest young golfers a place. It's cheating. Plain and simple. You might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not hand in a point one in order to qualify for a tournament.

    Really well put. I think it used to be a lot worse, so at least we're moving in the right direction with Golfnet.
    Daithio9 wrote: »
    Ok I'll get my coat.
    Btw what did the playing partner who signed his card do about it when he discovered the discrepancy?.

    It was he who reported the incident. He was one of the very few who could have spotted it. While I have a fair idea what happened, how it happened is a mystery to me. How he thought his playing partner(s) wouldn't check the results, if not on howdidido, then on the board as he finished 2nd, and how he thought he'd get away with turning such a poxy score into a prize-winning score... not that it'd be okay if he nudged his score from 33pts, into the buffer zone... and then putting +1 on the card?? Bananas!!


  • #23
    Daithio9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Daithio9


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    Really well put. I think it used to be a lot worse, so at least we're moving in the right direction with Golfnet.



    It was he who reported the incident. He was one of the very few who could have spotted it. While I have a fair idea what happened, how it happened is a mystery to me. How he thought his playing partner(s) wouldn't check the results, if not on howdidido, then on the board as he finished 2nd, and how he thought he'd get away with turning such a poxy score into a prize-winning score... not that it'd be okay if he nudged his score from 33pts, into the buffer zone... and then putting +1 on the card?? Bananas!!
    So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
    We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.


  • #24
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    Daithio9 wrote: »
    So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
    We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.

    The player was suspended. I think for a year.


  • #25
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Daithio9 wrote: »
    So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
    We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.

    I did hear, but can't actually remember. 3 months rings a bell. I'll find out later.


  • #26
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    IITYWYBMAD wrote: »
    The player was suspended. I think for a year.

    As staunchly against this as I am, that's way, way too rough if you ask me (if it's true)...

    Maybe banned from from GUI c'ships, cups & shields for a year - that'd be fair enough, but from all golf, or at least normal competitions?? No, I'm sorry, that's completely OTT. All that was needed was something to give him the fright of his life and set him on the straight and narrow. His name is already muck which is punishment to a degree.


  • #27
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    As staunchly against this as I am, that's way, way too rough if you ask me (if it's true)...

    Maybe banned from from GUI c'ships, cups & shields for a year - that'd be fair enough, but from all golf, or at least normal competitions?? No, I'm sorry, that's completely OTT. All that was needed was something to give him the fright of his life and set him on the straight and narrow. His name is already muck which is punishment to a degree.

    I know nothing about the incident, bar what I have read here. It appears it was 9 months and not 12. I assume that that is the same incident F22 was talking about, I recalled I had read about it earlier.


  • #28
    f22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭f22


    IITYWYBMAD wrote: »
    I know nothing about the incident, bar what I have read here. It appears it was 9 months and not 12. I assume that that is the same incident F22 was talking about, I recalled I had read about it earlier.

    Yeah, 9 month ban. But the fact that every player and selector knows you're a cheat makes it worse.

    If you do something like that my belief is that you've probably did it before and would have done it again if he hadn't been caught.


  • #29
    jimjo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭jimjo


    f22 wrote: »
    Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

    Incidentally he lives only a few hundred yards from me.

    Does he still play golf in your club and if he does how do the members treat him?


  • #30
    f22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭f22


    jimjo wrote: »
    Does he still play golf in your club and if he does how do the members treat him?

    Not a member of my club Jimjo, although his club is a par 3 over my back wall. I can't commetn on ho members are viewing it but i will say i know a couple of young lads who play for leinster who don't view him in the same light any more.

    Sheet, I have to disagree, he deserves everything he gets in my eyes. An example needs to be made, it's not just that he will never do it again, it's the fact that it may stop any others from doing it in the first place.

    Incidentally I have heard of players being thrown out of clubs for similar.


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  • #31
    f22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭f22


    On the original conversation of .1's / NR's etc. I have to admit that through last year I had several NR's through the competitive season, mainly through the frustration of playing dirt most of the year.

    However, I always swipe in, and I alway throw the card in which guarantees I get the .1 I deserve. In an ideal world I would finish every round out and submit a score but it doesn't always work out that way.

    I don't ever really try to hide a bad score, sometimes it's just easier to pick up the ball and move on, especially when it may interfere with playing partners.


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