Handicap increases

AldilaMan

In our club .1 was automatically added to your handicap if you didn't return your card (N/R) once you entered a competition on the computer. Towards the end of last season this system changed that you only got .1 if you entered your card into the computer. Was this something that the GUI changed ? If this is the case then golfers who want to keep their handicaps low can decide not to return bad cards in order to keep their handicap artificially low. My own view is that clubs should force all golfers to return all scores to get an accurate CSS and penalise offenders. Any views on this ?

ShriekingSheet

Couldn't agree more with you.

As for your query, I think there was an issue over players not signing into the computer, so that they could NR without the computer noticing, or if they had a good score, sign-in and enter their score at the same time afterwards.

There was something mentioned at the start of last year but I'm not sure if there's been any real change. It p*sses me off to see guys trying to dodge .1. Also, to be fair, some are embarassed these days with howdidido showing the full field to all.

stevire

What about the other end of the scale - wanting to keep your handicap high? Would this not be a relatively easy way to build up a handicap if you did score well?

AldilaMan

Playing partners should report anyone who betters CSS without returning the card. It would be clear from Howdidido whether the card was returned or not. It's very annoying partnering someone in team events playing off their ego handicap which you know they haven't played to for some time. Again I reiterate, it's up to clubs to enforce returns from all competitors in qualifying competitions.

ShriekingSheet

I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...

Miley Byrne

AldilaMan wrote: »

In our club .1 was automatically added to your handicap if you didn't return your card (N/R) once you entered a competition on the computer. Towards the end of last season this system changed that you only got .1 if you entered your card into the computer. Was this something that the GUI changed ? If this is the case then golfers who want to keep their handicaps low can decide not to return bad cards in order to keep their handicap artificially low. My own view is that clubs should force all golfers to return all scores to get an accurate CSS and penalise offenders. Any views on this ?

Id prefer if clubs didn't hand out .1s for NRs than giving them out. Yes, some will have a handicap which is too low. But this is not as bad as the fellas who enter comps, return no card and play off 16 or 17 till the Captain's prize. Then they have a score, get cut and build up their .1s again till the next major. The fellas keeping their handicaps high are a bigger scourge than the fellas keeping it low for ego purposes IMO.

AldilaMan

Word travels fast in golf. I played with a guy yesterday who knows the person involved. (He was actually off +1 i.e. giving a shot to the course !)He was trying to get a .1 to get back to scratch.

GreeBo

denisoc16 wrote: »

Id prefer if clubs didn't hand out .1s for NRs than giving them out. Yes, some will have a handicap which is too low. But this is not as bad as the fellas who enter comps, return no card and play off 16 or 17 till the Captain's prize. Then they have a score, get cut and build up their .1s again till the next major. The fellas keeping their handicaps high are a bigger scourge than the fellas keeping it low for ego purposes IMO.

Clubs should distinguish between real 0.1's and NR's. You have to be eligible for the majors in most clubs these days.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

Clubs should distinguish between real 0.1's and NR's. You have to be eligible for the majors in most clubs these days.

Sorry Greebo,

How do you mean?

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...

Yea I heard the same thing from my girlfriend's sisters best friends brother in laws 3rd cousins son, so it must true.
Seriously though this kinda of thing isn't really the issue or even close to same thing as people who intentionally get .1's back. Granted they both affect CSS but 1 of them is fooling themselves while the other is trying to fool everyone else and tbh afaics neither are very successful at what they do.

Russman

This is a bit of a pet hate of mine, I have to admit. I'm low single figures myself and always return my card (to the extent that i got back a shot and a half last year that I didn't particularly want).

IMO there are far too many low handicap golfers in the, say, +2 to 2 handicap range that are nowhere near able to play to it. Sure, on the occassional good day they might but thats about it. You only have to look at scratch cup results or the scores in the Championships each time to see half the field in the mid 80s and worse. Obviously anyone can have a bad day but I know guys off scratch or thereabouts that never return a card unless its in the buffer zone - they'd probably be decent 3 or 4 handicappers truth be known. Another trick is they go out in the competition without actually entering on the computer and only if they have a good score do they "enter" and "enter a score" after the round. I think clubs should certainly apply the automatic 0.1 for NRs, with a handicap suspension after 3 incidents.

The big problem is that it effects all the other players. In club competitions the CSS can be thrown out by a lot of bad scores missing from the calculation and on another level, the cut-off point for the East, West etc is artificially too low thus preventing players deserving of a place from entering. I did a stint on the competitions committee in our place and could see it every week, approx 30% of entrants not returning cards.

Hope this didn't seem like a mindless rant, its anything but.

I do believe its an issue the GUI need to sort out but sometimes i think it suits them to say there's x amount of plus handicap golfers in Ireland (don't know why) maybe it justifies something somewhere along the line.

A final point, I think its somewhat of a myth about guys building handicaps - generally speaking. Most guys who do that aren't then able to turn it on on demand (say, for captain's day). If there are 2 or 3 genuine "bandits" at most in any club thats about it, in my humble opinion.

Now I'll sit back and wait for the torrent of mails disagreeing with me

Cheers

ShriekingSheet

Daithio9 wrote: »

Yea I heard the same thing from my girlfriend's sisters best friends brother in laws 3rd cousins son, so it must true.

Get the boat Daithi. I know the full details - hardly going to post them on a public forum!

Daithio9 wrote: »

Seriously though this kinda of thing isn't really the issue or even close to same thing as people who intentionally get .1's back.

You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.

stumpypeeps

It seems to me the fundamental requirement for a proper handicap is the honesty and integrity of the golfer. Unfortunately, thats impossible to police.

Russman

The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.[/QUOTE]

+1 to that ShriekingSheet, exactly the point, a mix of ego and entry into the championships.

f22

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I heard recently that a young man off 1 from a north Dublin club was suspended when his playing partner signed off on a score of 28 points for him, only to see him with 34 points (within the buffer zone of not getting .1 back) on howdidido...

Even worse Sheet, he doctored the card for 38, enough for 2nd place.

Disgraceful

f22

AldilaMan wrote: »

Word travels fast in golf. I played with a guy yesterday who knows the person involved. (He was actually off +1 i.e. giving a shot to the course !)He was trying to get a .1 to get back to scratch.

Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

Incidentally he lives only a few hundred yards from me.

PhilipMarlowe

I'm undecided as to what the system should be.
In our place you MUST sign & swipe in before going out to play.
You enter your score afterwards... not swiping before you play = DQ
Should you get .1 back for a no return? Most likely the guy has had a crap score and doesn't want to bother to hand in his card. Though not ideal, the .1 can be justified.
I like the idea of a sanction for x number of NR's... a couple in a season can be explained because we all might get called away or whatever but really you need a sanction to 'force' people to return all their cards.

Miley Byrne

Licksy wrote: »

I'm undecided as to what the system should be.
In our place you MUST sign & swipe in before going out to play.
You enter your score afterwards... not swiping before you play = DQ
Should you get .1 back for a no return? Most likely the guy has had a crap score and doesn't want to bother to hand in his card. Though not ideal, the .1 can be justified.
I like the idea of a sanction for x number of NR's... a couple in a season can be explained because we all might get called away or whatever but really you need a sanction to 'force' people to return all their cards.

I see now how it can be abused either way, ie fellas tryin to gain a .1 or avoid a .1 depending on which way they want to go. I hadn't thought of the low guys trying to stay low for entry into the big comps. I have only come across the fellas gaining .1s for higher handicaps for classics and majors etc. I agree with Licksy though that there should be sanctions after a certain number of NRs. Or else be asked to explain by the club why there was a NR afterwards. At the moment there just is no follow up at all. (at my home club anyway, and I presume at most clubs). There is nothing to stop/deter people from playing 5/6 holes in a comp and heading away home then safe in the knowledge that a .1 is in the bag (as happens at my club as the 5th green as next to the carpark!!):(

Solutions?

Not sure....it would be very hard for the comp sec/handicap sec to try to meet & question every perpetrator. Maybe, as Licksy says, a type of "3 strikes and you're out of the next major or certain number of singles events/etc etc" type of deterrent.

ShriekingSheet

f22 wrote: »

Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

WTF? What was he putting +1 on the card for??

G1032

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.

This was a problem with an individual in my home club. Young lad. Never handed in point ones and as a result kept his handicap low enough to gain entry to the Boys Tournaments and deny honest young golfers a place. It's cheating. Plain and simple. You might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not hand in a point one in order to qualify for a tournament.

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Get the boat Daithi. I know the full details - hardly going to post them on a public forum!

Ok I'll get my coat.
Btw what did the playing partner who signed his card do about it when he discovered the discrepancy?.

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

You mean it's not really an issue for you. The reason these guys off scratch and 1 dodge the .1s is not just ego, it's so they can get into the Championships. Meanwhile, a number of honest golfers in the 1-2 bracket are denied a place in the field, purely because they've taken their .1s, rather than dodge them.

Fair enough that is a serious issue alright and I think all NR's should get .1's and I agree with Licksy and others who think there should a sanction like a 3 month suspension from all competitive for 3 NR's and repeat offenders should get 12 months, e.g. If they have 3 NR's in any of the following 5 years after the first offence then they get a ban for 12 months.

ShriekingSheet

ronaldochokes wrote: »

This was a problem with an individual in my home club. Young lad. Never handed in point ones and as a result kept his handicap low enough to gain entry to the Boys Tournaments and deny honest young golfers a place. It's cheating. Plain and simple. You might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not hand in a point one in order to qualify for a tournament.

Really well put. I think it used to be a lot worse, so at least we're moving in the right direction with Golfnet.

Daithio9 wrote: »

Ok I'll get my coat.
Btw what did the playing partner who signed his card do about it when he discovered the discrepancy?.

It was he who reported the incident. He was one of the very few who could have spotted it. While I have a fair idea what happened, how it happened is a mystery to me. How he thought his playing partner(s) wouldn't check the results, if not on howdidido, then on the board as he finished 2nd, and how he thought he'd get away with turning such a poxy score into a prize-winning score... not that it'd be okay if he nudged his score from 33pts, into the buffer zone... and then putting +1 on the card?? Bananas!!

Daithio9

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Really well put. I think it used to be a lot worse, so at least we're moving in the right direction with Golfnet.



It was he who reported the incident. He was one of the very few who could have spotted it. While I have a fair idea what happened, how it happened is a mystery to me. How he thought his playing partner(s) wouldn't check the results, if not on howdidido, then on the board as he finished 2nd, and how he thought he'd get away with turning such a poxy score into a prize-winning score... not that it'd be okay if he nudged his score from 33pts, into the buffer zone... and then putting +1 on the card?? Bananas!!

So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.

IITYWYBMAD

Daithio9 wrote: »

So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.

The player was suspended. I think for a year.

ShriekingSheet

Daithio9 wrote: »

So do you know what action (if any) was taken.
We had a similiar incident in my home club about 3 years ago and the player in question was banned from all golf for 12 months.

I did hear, but can't actually remember. 3 months rings a bell. I'll find out later.

ShriekingSheet

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

The player was suspended. I think for a year.

As staunchly against this as I am, that's way, way too rough if you ask me (if it's true)...

Maybe banned from from GUI c'ships, cups & shields for a year - that'd be fair enough, but from all golf, or at least normal competitions?? No, I'm sorry, that's completely OTT. All that was needed was something to give him the fright of his life and set him on the straight and narrow. His name is already muck which is punishment to a degree.

IITYWYBMAD

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

As staunchly against this as I am, that's way, way too rough if you ask me (if it's true)...

Maybe banned from from GUI c'ships, cups & shields for a year - that'd be fair enough, but from all golf, or at least normal competitions?? No, I'm sorry, that's completely OTT. All that was needed was something to give him the fright of his life and set him on the straight and narrow. His name is already muck which is punishment to a degree.

I know nothing about the incident, bar what I have read here. It appears it was 9 months and not 12. I assume that that is the same incident F22 was talking about, I recalled I had read about it earlier.

f22

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I know nothing about the incident, bar what I have read here. It appears it was 9 months and not 12. I assume that that is the same incident F22 was talking about, I recalled I had read about it earlier.

Yeah, 9 month ban. But the fact that every player and selector knows you're a cheat makes it worse.

If you do something like that my belief is that you've probably did it before and would have done it again if he hadn't been caught.

jimjo

f22 wrote: »

Incorrect, he put +1 as his handicap on the card even though he played off 1 at the time.

Incidentally he lives only a few hundred yards from me.

Does he still play golf in your club and if he does how do the members treat him?

f22

jimjo wrote: »

Does he still play golf in your club and if he does how do the members treat him?

Not a member of my club Jimjo, although his club is a par 3 over my back wall. I can't commetn on ho members are viewing it but i will say i know a couple of young lads who play for leinster who don't view him in the same light any more.

Sheet, I have to disagree, he deserves everything he gets in my eyes. An example needs to be made, it's not just that he will never do it again, it's the fact that it may stop any others from doing it in the first place.

Incidentally I have heard of players being thrown out of clubs for similar.

f22

On the original conversation of .1's / NR's etc. I have to admit that through last year I had several NR's through the competitive season, mainly through the frustration of playing dirt most of the year.

However, I always swipe in, and I alway throw the card in which guarantees I get the .1 I deserve. In an ideal world I would finish every round out and submit a score but it doesn't always work out that way.

I don't ever really try to hide a bad score, sometimes it's just easier to pick up the ball and move on, especially when it may interfere with playing partners.

PhilipMarlowe

I picked myself up and moved myself on once last year... I was +somethingawful after 11, hit 2 balls OOB on the 12th and got out of dodge before I made my partners lose the will to live from having to watch me. It's probably the first time I've ever quit a round and only did it because my partners were glad to be rid of me! I think it's bad form but sometimes you're better off out of there if your head isn't right.
Of course then you get the genuine call that means you have to leave the course which is understandable... a couple per season should be allowed but any more and you should have to explain yourself IMO. And I don't mean an NR because you scratched a hole in a strokeplay event - you can still get adjusted for that anyway. I mean where no card is returned at all.

IITYWYBMAD

f22 wrote: »

Yeah, 9 month ban. But the fact that every player and selector knows you're a cheat makes it worse.

If you do something like that my belief is that you've probably did it before and would have done it again if he hadn't been caught.

This ^ and...

f22 wrote: »

Not a member of my club Jimjo, although his club is a par 3 over my back wall. I can't commetn on ho members are viewing it but i will say i know a couple of young lads who play for leinster who don't view him in the same light any more.

Sheet, I have to disagree, he deserves everything he gets in my eyes. An example needs to be made, it's not just that he will never do it again, it's the fact that it may stop any others from doing it in the first place.

Incidentally I have heard of players being thrown out of clubs for similar.

...this..I have to agree with. I've only ever come across a blatant case of cheating once myself (a crappy society outing in Druids Glen), but I think that every cheat deserves what he/she gets.

jimjo

f22 wrote: »

Sheet, I have to disagree, he deserves everything he gets in my eyes. An example needs to be made, it's not just that he will never do it again, it's the fact that it may stop any others from doing it in the first place.

Incidentally I have heard of players being thrown out of clubs for similar.

I do think its a little bit harsh. Given that he is a young man I’d be a little bit more lenient. The disgrace of being associated with cheating is bad enough, and something like a ban on interclub competitions and maybe competing in competitions in other clubs would be enough, without banning him from his own club comps.

The club could introduce a measure to monitor the player in question and insist that he plays with a committee member or a long serving member (of course if they themselves want to play with the player in question) who are asked to really keep an eye on his shots. I know many will disagree with this approach but its just an idea, in a way I’d like to put the fella right but still give him the fright of his life in the process.

In regards to NR’s, unfortunately I think most of us are in the same boat. Its happened one or twice max this year when the head was in the shed and not focused on golf. One thing I will say is that I’ve overheard a few playing partners saying they were reluctant to hand in their cards cause of embarrassment for their scores showing on Master Scoreboard or in other clubs Howdidido, which I can understand.

ShriekingSheet

f22 wrote: »

Sheet, I have to disagree, he deserves everything he gets in my eyes. An example needs to be made, it's not just that he will never do it again, it's the fact that it may stop any others from doing it in the first place.

Hmmm, fair enough. I'd just be surprised if he ever picks up a club again... I think you know him/the situation better than I do, so my view is a little more superficial.

jimmystars

He got off lightly in my opinion. 9 months without golf gives people time to forget and i cant see too many people shunning him when he returns to be honest. When he comes back will he need a new handicap or would he assume his old one as you cant really count on his golfnet to be an honest reflection of his abillity.

Mr. Larson

Licksy wrote: »

And I don't mean an NR because you scratched a hole in a strokeplay event - you can still get adjusted for that anyway.

Really? That's interesting. So if you are off 18 for Example, Par is 72 and you shoot 92, but this involved a 9 on one hole and you shot only +11 for the remaining 17 holes you can get cut?

I would imagine this requires that you have an extra vigilant Handicap secretary or the guys checking the scores are being extra vigilant. Tbh my goal in playing golf is to get as low as possible, and I have often stood level par or better on the 6th or 7th and taken a 9 on a hole and switched off immediately.

If I knew for sure that I shot the lights out in a medal barring one massive blowout on a hole, I would be more inclined to try and score well, knowing I could potentially get cut.

AldilaMan

Clause 19.8
For all holes completed, the player's Nett Differential is reduced by the number of strokes taken on any hole in excess of nett double bogey.
For holes with no score recorded, a score of nett double bogey is entered.
In laymans terms an 18 handicapper (in strokeplay) with a shot on every hole can score a max of 7 on a par 4 for handicapping purposes (nett double bogey). If you take a 12 the full score counts for the competition but it will be reduce to 7 for handicap reduction/increase. This reduction can be seen clearly on golfnet records. An 18 handicapper could shoot 94 on a par 72 (giving a nett 76) but having scored a 10 on 2 of the par fours would have the nett score reduced by 6 strokes giving a nett 70 and therefore being cut .6 assuming CSS of 72.

On the issue of vigilant Handicap secs to monitor these scores - not neccessary - computerisation deals with this automatically.

AldilaMan

BUACHAILL

I believe the guy deserved everything he got and its foolish on his behalf because like everyone has said his name is muck and will never be looked at again in the same light which is already punishment enough.

On the NR's, My club introduced a system last year that there is a handicap review every November. They will go through everyone. Anybody that has had substantial non returns will get cut all these .1's with some interest. Last year some of the so called bandits got cut 2 shots etc, to say they were not happy was an understatement but I think its a great way of sorting it.

Unfortunately they can win events before the cut but I dont think you can get a perfect system to be honest as its mostly down to the honesty and integrity of the players involved.

Nemesis

If you enter the competition and don't return your card the advice the GUI suggests is a warning letter after the first offence and suspension from club competitions for 4 weeks after the second offence.

If you have a few NR's on your card and you return your card all is fine.

The penalty is there but a lot of the time when a card isn't entered is due to someone not having a clue about entering the computer or has moved club and isn't setup on the system correctly.

A bigger problem is the guys who play 9 holes and go in early because of the rain or want to watch a match on TV.


I've seen a guy who had 18 points after 9 and 9 NRs on back 9 get .1 back a few years ago.

fatherbuzcagney

2yrs ago i got cut from 16 to 14.2 after a competition , the next comp round(away) i played of 14 and had 39pts and css was 36pts,so i was due a cut of .9 which would technically have me playing of 13. the computer was not working so the cards were left in box in hut. When i rang next day to see what won i was told 40pts won and beat on cb for 2nd and i asked the club official to notify my club so i could get cut. I also called into our club hc secretary to notify him. No adjustment was made to my hc. The next couple of rounds i played of 13 even though i was 14 but played poorly and did not return cards as so adjustment was made which in my own mind balanced out things. Not able to play off 13 i drifted out to 15 before the season ended, is what i done wrong or against rules?

dvemail

fatherbuzcagney wrote: »

2yrs ago i got cut from 16 to 14.2 after a competition , the next comp round(away) i played of 14 and had 39pts and css was 36pts,so i was due a cut of .9 which would technically have me playing of 13. the computer was not working so the cards were left in box in hut. When i rang next day to see what won i was told 40pts won and beat on cb for 2nd and i asked the club official to notify my club so i could get cut. I also called into our club hc secretary to notify him. No adjustment was made to my hc. The next couple of rounds i played of 13 even though i was 14 but played poorly and did not return cards as so adjustment was made which in my own mind balanced out things. Not able to play off 13 i drifted out to 15 before the season ended, is what i done wrong or against rules?

Happened me a few times when i was a junior as your handicap wouldnt get cut straight away(may take a week or so).
So i would play off , what i felt should be my new handicap even if i was still down as being off a higher handicap just to be safe.
Im not really sure though what is the right thing to do here either.

f22

It's your responsibility to cut yourself, regardless of the the time it takes to filter through the system.

GreeBo

In my club once you sign into the computer you automatically get 0.1 back unless you are within/under your buffer.
Irrespective of whether or not you hand in/enter you card afterwards.

It was to stop people keeping their handicap artificially low (which is just as prevalent as the artificially high crowd)

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

In my club once you sign into the computer you automatically get 0.1 back unless you are within/under your buffer.
Irrespective of whether or not you hand in/enter you card afterwards.

It was to stop people keeping their handicap artificially low (which is just as prevalent as the artificially high crowd)

Good idea, but would the GUI not have an issue with this approach?

GreeBo

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Good idea, but would the GUI not have an issue with this approach?

Well by definition its an NR as you didnt return your card...

Linksman

I got a .1 from a singles on Saturday which brings my handicap up a stroke. My new handicap has been posted on the club noticeboard but I thought only cuts to handicaps took immediate effect - when your handicap went up you had to wait until the end of the month to get the shot back?

GreeBo

for a good while now both take immediate effect...

PhilipMarlowe

Alterations are immediate in the sense that once they are processed by your Home Club then they take immediate effect. So if you play a competition at home then your 0.1 increase will be there as soon as the competition is closed.
For an away competition, you must wait until the away competition is closed and your home secretary downloads and processes the away scores.
The end of the month thing was done away with at the start of 2008/9 I think?

Linksman

Licksy wrote: »

Alterations are immediate in the sense that once they are processed by your Home Club then they take immediate effect. So if you play a competition at home then your 0.1 increase will be there as soon as the competition is closed.
For an away competition, you must wait until the away competition is closed and your home secretary downloads and processes the away scores.
The end of the month thing was done away with at the start of 2008/9 I think?

Cool. Thanks.