Religion and Irish schools

Overheal · 06-02-2010 05:32PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Sulmac wrote: »

If you want religious education for your children, you should teach them yourselves or pay for it - and I'm talking for all religions here, not just Catholic. Many seem to forget there are publicly-funded Church of Ireland, Methodist, other Christian, Islamic and Jewish schools - it's like funding sectarianism in the education sector.

And you wonder why education is such a crippling share of the National Budget though. Still, I cant even say that I think private schools in the US receive no funding from taxes. It would seem like they would get some allowance based on the number of children they had enrolled, but it would hardly cover all operating expenses as if it were a county school.

Antbert wrote: »

Ah see, we agree on almost everything. I still think that private religious schools shouldn't exist. If parents insist on indoctrination, I don't think schools should be available to help them.

Thats entirely unreasonable. You can't exactly ban whole swaths of society from educating their children the way they want, in all shapes and forms.

Clearly you've had some kind of traumatic encounter with religion? Or you just happen to paint everyone who is religious with the same Pedo-Terrorist brush.

@ We'llhavetea I always sat in on that confession crap at school and all but the first time did I ever participate in any of it (I was curious, always curious) - apparently it was a communion and that teacher was very livid I had eaten the body of her lord or some such lore.

Tasted shyte anyway.

Still I never felt outcast. Maybe its because there weren't any Zealots in my class groups or maybe it was because I was confident enough being an atheist that it never bothered me.

pooch90 · 06-02-2010 05:34PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In theory this could even extend to hetrosexual teachers who openly cohabit with an (unmarried/divorced) partner ?

This is the position I'm in. Moved down the country to live with my OH, not married. This is a situation that I've felt the need to lie about in interviews. Why did you more here? There's two reasons why I feel the need to lie. (1) the face on the priest the few times i've just said F**k it, I'm sick of lying. How could somebody so immoral and flaunting it possibly teach kids about the Catholic ethos? (2) If I'm not married to my partner and things go t1ts up between us then i'm seen as a flight risk who'll just pack up and go back home.

Wellallhavetea: feel the need to emphasise that this was a tiny country school with less than 100 pupils, not indicative of every school. The choir was a whole school activity- from 1st-6th class. This was perhaps the reason why the child/parents opted for him to join in the choir activities without actually partaking in the Communion. Personally, I don't think the parents should have allowed him to do the choir, as it was just setting him up for disappointment. Then the question arises: What else was he going to do?

I had pupils in 5th/6th who weren't participating in the confirmation who didn't feel left out at all, it was just that little fella in Communion class who did.

Don't really understand your thinking behind baptising your child and not including it in the sacraments. Surely if you want the child to make up their own mind regarding their own faith at a later date you should have left them unbaptised and they could chose to do this as an adult. No child in school would be aware of whether or not their friend is baptised. They will be aware of them not participating of sacraments but I've found the kids don't really give a sh*t about religions of others. (Unless they have extreme parents who have bred intolerance into the kids) Not trying to attack you, just easily confused after a week of screaming kids!

RE is not a part of the Primary Curriculum, therefore inspectors won't give two hoots about it when they call to a school. It's for this reason I don't place a huge emphasis on it in my classroom. The day is short enough as it is without trying to squeeze a half hour of religion into everyday. I much prefer to emphasise what is known as the Catholic Ethos (my interpretation of it anyway) of tolerance and respect. If kids come away from my class with these values, I'm much happier than if they know what Zaccheus (sp) did for a living. The religion programme taught in schools (Alive-O) is the greatest pile of sh1te I've ever encountered in my life. I hate it with a passion,as do the majority of teachers I know.

caseyann · 06-02-2010 05:39PM

Overheal wrote: »

And you wonder why education is such a crippling share of the National Budget though. Still, I cant even say that I think private schools in the US receive no funding from taxes. It would seem like they would get some allowance based on the number of children they had enrolled, but it would hardly cover all operating expenses as if it were a county school.

Thats entirely unreasonable. You can't exactly ban whole swaths of society from educating their children the way they want, in all shapes and forms.

Clearly you've had some kind of traumatic encounter with religion? Or you just happen to paint everyone who is religious with the same Pedo-Terrorist brush.

@ We'llhavetea I always sat in on that confession crap at school and all but the first time did I ever participate in any of it (I was curious, always curious) - apparently it was a communion and that teacher was very livid I had eaten the body of her lord or some such lore.

Tasted shyte anyway.

Still I never felt outcast. Maybe its because there weren't any Zealots in my class groups or maybe it was because I was confident enough being an atheist that it never bothered me.

haha always made me feel ill and got stuck to pallet of my mouth

Parents are happy with their children learning it in school so why not.Nothing to do with anyone.If you don't like it don't christen your kids and don't go to mass.
If not christened or don't wish to be in religious classes or do communion or confirmation you do not have to and you make it known when you enter the school.
The whole people having a faith bashing is a pain now i am so sick of it.
I do not practice and i dont care if anyone wants to is their business.

Teclo · 06-02-2010 05:46PM

What a load of ****e. People are forced to hand over their money to the government. The government tell them this money will be used for services that will benefit themselves and others. Why should one particular group of taxpayers, parents who wish to send their children to a school with a religious ethos, not see any return on their contributions?

Overheal · 06-02-2010 05:47PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

caseyann wrote: »

haha always made me feel ill and got stuck to pallet of my mouth

Parents are happy with their children learning it in school so why not.Nothing to do with anyone.If you don't like it don't christen your kids and don't go to mass.
If not christened or don't wish to be in religious classes or do communion or confirmation you do not have to and you make it known when you enter the school.
The whole people having a faith bashing is a pain now i am so sick of it.
I do not practice and i dont care if anyone wants to is their business.

It really does become your business when you are ushered into a chapel for 90 minutes to hear about Easter.

caseyann · 06-02-2010 05:51PM

Overheal wrote: »

It really does become your business when you are ushered into a chapel for 90 minutes to hear about Easter.

If you don't want to go get a letter from your parents saying you don't want to go.If your parents have christened you then take it up with them.No one forced them to christen you and make you take part.I know my mother didn't force me to partake in anything and that's how it should be.But its the parents not anyone else who are the ones at fault.
Only thing that bothered me about sitting listening to masses was the sitting in one place to long on hard wood.

Dionysus · 06-02-2010 05:55PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Sulmac wrote: »

By the time she gets to college, most of the "normal" people will be atheist, agnostic, irreligious or, at the very least, "lapsed".

And what's the betting that at that time it will be "cool" to reject all of the above.:)

Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.

Overheal · 06-02-2010 05:56PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

caseyann wrote: »

If you don't want to go get a letter from your parents saying you don't want to go.If your parents have christened you then take it up with them.No one forced them to christen you and make you take part.I know my mother didn't force me to partake in anything and that's how it should be.But its the parents not anyone else who are the ones at fault.
Only thing that bothered me about sitting listening to masses was the sitting in one place to long on hard wood.

sitting

hard wood

catholicism

irony

after hours! \:pac:/

caseyann · 06-02-2010 06:02PM

Overheal wrote: »

sitting

hard wood

catholicism

irony

after hours! \:pac:/

Oh the pain

Kidding lol

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-02-2010 06:04PM

Antbert wrote: »

There's an absolutely massive difference between teaching something with no actual evidence behind it, to teaching maths.

Languages have uses. They aren't promoted ahead of maths... I don't actually think Irish should be compulsory either, but I did pass level for the Leaving Cert and that was fine for me.

In fact... I think it's correct that you do English and Maths in the Leaving Cert. You can do pass or honours (or foundation) level, but these are things everyone should have basic knowledge in. So maybe we can sort of agree on Irish, but I completely don't understand the rest of your reasoning.

They are be virtue of being compulsary subjects. Anyway, my point is, I think the curriculum could be more balanced in the subjects it teaches, by adding some practical subjects that don't nessicarily have an exam at the end that you need to pass to get points. This is off topic, though. On topic, my point about religious schools being ok as long as they ar self-funding still stands.

Antbert · 06-02-2010 06:09PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Overheal wrote: »

Thats entirely unreasonable. You can't exactly ban whole swaths of society from educating their children the way they want, in all shapes and forms.

But would you think it reasonable to have schools that dedicate teaching hours to Tarot readings? Or to The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or the Metro horoscopes?

Antbert · 06-02-2010 06:19PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Overheal wrote: »

Clearly you've had some kind of traumatic encounter with religion? Or you just happen to paint everyone who is religious with the same Pedo-Terrorist brush.

Deeply resent that comment. I'm forever saying 'enough of the bloody paedophile ranting' on all the other threads.

I just don't see why a massive part of children's lives should be taken over by religion. People see it as 'educating the way they wish' but... Why? As far as I can tell it's just because that's the way it always has been. Religion shouldn't be synonymous with education. In any scenario.

I'm not on a crusade trying to stop parents ramming religion down their kids throats in their own time.

EDIT: Sorry, that was very much a "AND ANOTHER THING..." way to start a second post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-02-2010 07:05PM

Antbert wrote: »

But would you think it reasonable to have schools that dedicate teaching hours to Tarot readings? Or to The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or the Metro horoscopes?

Techically, tarot cards have a very rich and artistic history, whether or not you believe in hat they can and can not do. I love them because of the artwork and symbolism. How would people feel if spirituality and meditation techniques were taught in schools? Too practical? Too hokey-pokey?

brummytom · 06-02-2010 07:53PM

Antbert wrote: »

But would you think it reasonable to have schools that dedicate teaching hours to Tarot readings? Or to The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or the Metro horoscopes?

If enough people truly believed in those, I wouldn't see the problem with dedicated schools being set up for them to be honest.

It does seem as though the Church has too much involvement in the state over there, though. Our system seems better - the state fully funds secular schools while they only part-fund religious schools (with the respective Churches paying the rest) ?

Antbert · 06-02-2010 07:54PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Techically, tarot cards have a very rich and artistic history, whether or not you believe in hat they can and can not do. I love them because of the artwork and symbolism. How would people feel if spirituality and meditation techniques were taught in schools? Too practical? Too hokey-pokey?

Too practical?!

There's a difference again, between teaching The History of Tarot Cards (not exactly as politically releveant as the history of religion) and teaching children how to read tarot cards.

Antbert · 06-02-2010 07:57PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

brummytom wrote: »

If enough people truly believed in those, I wouldn't see the problem with dedicated schools being set up for them to be honest.

Alright. There is where you and I completely differ.

brummytom · 06-02-2010 08:00PM

Antbert wrote: »

Alright. There is where you and I completely differ.

You know, I respect anyone's beliefs; whether I agree with them or not.

I'm a Catholic, I don't actively try and impose my views on others, but I will defend them when questioned. Just because I'm Catholic doesn't mean I don't respect the views of non-believers, either. I don't see why people feel the need to control what people are allowed to believe

I mean, Jesus Christ, people talk about indoctrination. The amount of atheists who are determined for people to share their beliefs is quite staggering given that they object to the church for 'forcing' beliefs on others. Live and let live, FFS

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-02-2010 08:05PM

Antbert wrote: »

Too practical?!

There's a difference again, between teaching The History of Tarot Cards (not exactly as politically releveant as the history of religion) and teaching children how to read tarot cards.

Not suggesting the reading of Tarot cards, I suggested them as a cultural reference.

As regards "practical", you misread: I intended that question on a broader sense. The the bit in bold should clarify.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Techically, tarot cards have a very rich and artistic history, whether or not you believe in hat they can and can not do. I love them because of the artwork and symbolism. How would people feel if spirituality and meditation techniques were taught in schools? Too practical? Too hokey-pokey?

Antbert · 06-02-2010 08:08PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

brummytom wrote: »

I mean, Jesus Christ, people talk about indoctrination. The amount of atheists who are determined for people to share their beliefs is quite staggering given that they object to the church for 'forcing' beliefs on others. Live and let live, FFS

What beliefs are these?

we'llallhavetea_old · 06-02-2010 08:19PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Mike 1972 wrote: »

i know, i know! as a parent you just try to do your best, i just want to have a happy child!

GLaDOS · 06-02-2010 08:41PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

brummytom wrote: »

I mean, Jesus Christ, people talk about indoctrination. The amount of atheists who are determined for people to share their beliefs is quite staggering given that they object to the church for 'forcing' beliefs on others. Live and let live, FFS

Nobody wants to teach atheism, in fact most of us think it's important for kids to learn about religions. It's the schools being a religious body in itself (in terms of teaching their particular religion ie, it's the truth) and the resulting discrimination that can occur is the problem.

plein de force · 06-02-2010 08:52PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

religion has no place in education, education is for instilling knowledge into our minds not preaching superstition, currently there are not many alternatives for people who don't want to send their kids to catholic schools. The school i go to is a catholic one at least they don't ram catholicism down our throats, we never even have any masses and none of the teachers are religious figures either so you'd never even know it has a catholic board of management

i've often found it quite strange that a lot of irish schools, places where you go to learn factual material are run by institutions based around superstition.

Overheal · 06-02-2010 09:29PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

brummytom wrote: »

I mean, Jesus Christ, people talk about indoctrination. The amount of atheists who are determined for people to share their beliefs is quite staggering given that they object to the church for 'forcing' beliefs on others. Live and let live, FFS

If I sound like I'm a bit irritable its only because my boss has insisted upon WayFM, all ****ing day.

I'd be just as happy if we turned on elevator music and never spoke about Religion at work, but between The Feet of Jesus and Theres a God Shaped Hole in All of Us - yeah, I'm a bit irritable of late.

Antbert wrote: »

But would you think it reasonable to have schools that dedicate teaching hours to Tarot readings? Or to The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or the Metro horoscopes?

And now we get to why Private schools receive partial state funding. In exchange for some state funding the schools are required to uphold standard curriculum - English, Math, etc.

These schools still fall under the jurisdiction of State Examinations. Tarot Cards, Jesus, it doesnt matter as long as your students can keep a healthy GPA.

finlma · 06-02-2010 09:35PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

I'm a primary school teacher and an atheist. However, I have no choice but to teach a religion that I don't even belief. It's completely wrong that Catholicism is shoved down the throat of 95% of children in our wonderful country.

I do the bare minimum to cover my ass but I also teach the children in my class about the origins of the universe and evolution and I encourage them to think for themselves. Hopefully I get through to some of them and that they can see through the bullsh1t.

Before people tell me that I should just go and teach in an Educate Together school - there are very few of them and very difficult to get into. I love teaching and shouldn't have to teach children about a man in the clouds.

planetX · 06-02-2010 09:36PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

i know, i know! as a parent you just try to do your best, i just want to have a happy child!

Hi there, I've a child in communion year - small rural school where EVERYONE is making the communion. He's also the only one from a single parent household, so I really didn't want him to be singled out. No-one actually asked whether he was making it or not, so I thought we'd just slide through. I don't believe in a god, plan for me was to look at it like going to a school play, grin and bear. But it's actually much much worse than I'd thought, really feel like I can't stomach what's being 'taught', and now the spectre of first confession is looming. I don't know whether to withdraw him - but other kids will really notice it now, or just not turn up on the day, or take a valium and go for it. It's a nightmare, one Granny is already asking about a suit (YUK). I've already had to sit through a school mass where the priest gave a sermon about broken homes. I'm so so angry at the school system that is reinforcing prejudice against us, I had no choice over the type of school.

E.T. · 06-02-2010 09:45PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

finlma wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher and an atheist. However, I have no choice but to teach a religion that I don't even belief. It's completely wrong that Catholicism is shoved down the throat of 95% of children in our wonderful country.

I do the bare minimum to cover my ass but I also teach the children in my class about the origins of the universe and evolution and I encourage them to think for themselves. Hopefully I get through to some of them and that they can see through the bullsh1t.

Before people tell me that I should just go and teach in an Educate Together school - there are very few of them and very difficult to get into. I love teaching and shouldn't have to teach children about a man in the clouds.

I think there are a lot of teachers in a similar situation. I don't go to mass but I do believe in a god. I teach the Alive-O programme because it's part of my job. (It's an awful programme in my humble opinion and I have made that known to other staff and to the religious inspector)

I don't ever want to have a communion or confirmation class because I don't feel qualified to teach children about a topic that's so important to a church I don't believe in. As finlma said, there's no real alternative for non-Catholic teachers, I think it's 90% (roughly) of schools in Ireland are Catholic, so there'd be a hell of a lot of teachers queuing for jobs in Educate Together schools!

I do believe strongly that religious education and moral education should be taught in some shape or form in schools. Children should be taught about different religions to encourage understanding and respect for others' beliefs, and morals because unfortunately there's a growing minority of children who aren't getting any from their parents (I'm not parent bashing! I'm talking about the children who grow up in the families you hear about in the news who are obviously not going to get good guidance from bad parents)

E.T. · 06-02-2010 09:48PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

planetX wrote: »

Hi there, I've a child in communion year - small rural school where EVERYONE is making the communion. He's also the only one from a single parent household, so I really didn't want him to be singled out. No-one actually asked whether he was making it or not, so I thought we'd just slide through. I don't believe in a god, plan for me was to look at it like going to a school play, grin and bear. But it's actually much much worse than I'd thought, really feel like I can't stomach what's being 'taught', and now the spectre of first confession is looming. I don't know whether to withdraw him - but other kids will really notice it now, or just not turn up on the day, or take a valium and go for it. It's a nightmare, one Granny is already asking about a suit (YUK). I've already had to sit through a school mass where the priest gave a sermon about broken homes. I'm so so angry at the school system that is reinforcing prejudice against us, I had no choice over the type of school.

planetX - your story really reinforces exactly the reasons why I believe schools shouldn't be forced to teach only one religion. I really feel sorry for you, it's a crap situation and I can completely understand why children who hardly ever set foot in a church end up getting their communion/confirmation. That's bad enough without listening to rubbish from a priest like that. I hope you know that (most) teachers are completely understanding of your situation but our hands are totally tied by the school system.

planetX · 06-02-2010 09:55PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Thanks, I realise a lot of teachers are in this boat. You'd think that would make the 'real' catholics out there agree that religious education would be better taught outside of school by believers. I have no problem standing up for my non-beliefs. I do have a problem with my child having to do so. At 8 he is too young to have beliefs or not.

E.T. · 06-02-2010 10:01PM

Parents have a right to send their children to state schools of their religion

Completely agree - I've no problem admitting that I'm not a practising catholic but I think it's unfair that children aren't getting any options, and being subjected to ceremonies they're far too young to fully comprehend, with a lot of it out of pure fear that they'll feel left out of things.

aDeener · 06-02-2010 10:01PM

Sulmac wrote: »

By the time she gets to college, most of the "normal" people will be atheist, agnostic, irreligious or, at the very least, "lapsed".

one of the most if not the most condescending cock-like posts i have ever read

Religion and Irish schools

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