Pay more tax to bail out Public Servants?

darkman2 · 06-02-2010 02:43AM

hooradiation wrote: »

It's cute you believe that, but AH is a classic angry tabloid echo chamber.

Just because you can create any topic about public servants being universally awful and have 20 mouth breathers jump on board saying how awesome you are doesn't mean you speak for the people, kid.

And you think public servants do?:pac:

What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike? Do you think the private sector would for one second support the public servants? I don't think so. I would say have the strike and we can get this stuff out of the way and sort the public service out once and for all.

That's what Maggie did. Not a fan of her Irish policy but she did Britain a service. More service then the public sector there ever did.

mikom · 06-02-2010 02:44AM

darkman2 wrote: »

What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike?

Priests with placards?

Helix · 06-02-2010 02:49AM

its gas

laughed at for years for being a civil servant on "awful wages when theres loads more money to be had in the private sector", now all of a sudden "everyone in the civil service is making a fortune"

if the civil service was that fcukin cushy a number why didnt everyone whos currently whinging about it join it when they had the chance?

CDfm · 06-02-2010 02:49AM

hooradiation wrote: »

It's cute you believe that, but AH is a classic angry tabloid echo chamber.

Just because you can create any topic about public servants being universally awful and have 20 mouth breathers jump on board saying how awesome you are doesn't mean you speak for the people, kid.

He speaks for me and if he is young he makes sence

ok

1+1=2

if i have sell 8 oranges but only have 5 in stock I am a civil servant

hooradiation · 06-02-2010 02:49AM

darkman2 wrote: »

And you think public servants do?:pac:

I can't recall any public servant telling me that the majority think as they do, so.... I'm going to go with no.

Only you, in your infinite yet impotent rage have made that claim.

CDfm wrote: »

He speaks for me and if he is young he makes sence

ok

1+1=2

if i have sell 8 oranges but only have 5 in stock I am a civil servant

Go to bed.

K-9 · 06-02-2010 02:50AM

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.

So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask

Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Fulton Crown wrote: »

A half serious reply for a change in AH !

No - I would not pay more tax to bail out "Civil" Servants .

I really beliefe that though there are many dedicated and hard working civil servs - there is a serious canker all acoss the Public Service.

Not entirely their fault...take somebody in a local authority charged with dealing with the public....what incentive have they to be helpful and go the extra mile..the "customer" can't go elsewhwere..and the whole supervisory structure is to avoid responsibility at all costs.

Not a surprise realy that we should be so poorly served by our Public Servants .

Look, I supported the pension levy and cuts in Public Sector pay.

Barry would have took about a 6.5% Gross pay cut with the levy (3.3% Net, assuming top rate tax) and about another 5% Gross pay cut (about 2/2.5% Net).

As for the 300k mortgage, he got of light enough compared to some. Yes, he shouldn't have borrowed that much, but the banks, the ones we are bailing out, should never have lent him that much.

He is having his pay cut, show a little compassion. It isn't the sole preserve of the Private Sector. Plenty of Private Sector workers took out the same mortgages and are now unemployed, but getting State help through Mortgage Interest Relief.

Anyway, no, I am not prepared to prepared to pay more tax to bail him out. I am prepared to pay more tax to maintain the services he provides, like hospitals, schools etc.

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

CDfm · 06-02-2010 02:57AM

Helix wrote: »

its gas

laughed at for years for being a civil servant on "awful wages when theres loads more money to be had in the private sector", now all of a sudden "everyone in the civil service is making a fortune"

if the civil service was that fcukin cushy a number why didnt everyone whos currently whinging about it join it when they had the chance?

has it occured to you that it was a spin put out by the public service

i have friends in the public sector and never doubted how well paid they were -ever

EDIT

K-9 wrote: »

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

They are overpaid compared to the private sector

The incremental payrises based on years of service are bad economics

Helix · 06-02-2010 03:02AM

the ones in the middle make too much, if that makes any sense at all. but they ascend to middle management purely on seniority, not ability. they can be the worst in the world at their jobs, but putely coz theyve been there long enough theyll make pretty bloody good money. theyre the ones who cost the state in wasted money

the majority of people id imagine are at the lower pay scales (which are far from well paid), moving upwards towards the top in a decreasing pyramid

the ones at the top make too much too, but the effective ones would most likely just go to the private sector to get paid as much instead, and its probably better for the nation having them working in the public sector (this is something it took me a while to realise to be honest)

Pygmalion · 06-02-2010 03:03AM

CDfm wrote: »

Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

Grand so, next time you need surgery give me a PM, I'll do it for €100, and I'll educate your kids for half that.

ejmaztec · 06-02-2010 03:05AM

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

I am hoping to build a house, it will be a long time in the pipeline.

Why do you want to build a house in a pipe?

K-9 · 06-02-2010 03:22AM

CDfm wrote: »

has it occured to you that it was a spin put out by the public service

i have friends in the public sector and never doubted how well paid they were -ever

EDIT

They are overpaid compared to the private sector

The incremental payrises based on years of service are bad economics

Depends, many Private Sector companies apply increments too. I'm not up on the economics of it. Any links on it?

Some I'm sure are overpaid, some are probably paid ok, some are probably underpaid, who knows? One or 2 statistics can hide many small but important details.

This benchmarking lark was a disaster, nearly as bad as our property obsession. Public sector workers are obsessed in comparing with the Private Sector and then the Private Sector are probably more obsessed in comparing themselves vice versa.

Helix wrote: »

the ones in the middle make too much, if that makes any sense at all. but they ascend to middle management purely on seniority, not ability. they can be the worst in the world at their jobs, but putely coz theyve been there long enough theyll make pretty bloody good money. theyre the ones who cost the state in wasted money

the majority of people id imagine are at the lower pay scales (which are far from well paid), moving upwards towards the top in a decreasing pyramid

the ones at the top make too much too, but the effective ones would most likely just go to the private sector to get paid as much instead, and its probably better for the nation having them working in the public sector (this is something it took me a while to realise to be honest)

Nail on head. It tends to be middle management heavy. Another generalisation, but tends to be true.

CDfm · 06-02-2010 03:25AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Why do you want to build a house in a pipe?

an irish teacher from the gaeltacht

she will obviously get lots of grants and the pipe bit is probably new green technology

In soviet russia house buy you

anniehoo · 06-02-2010 03:34AM

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage.

darkman2 im only quoting a little of your post.Literally i could pick out problems with everything you've said.

A public sector job, yes.. was..."secure" and "pensionable" up until 5 years ago.Now its not so easy.Its taken me 9 yrs to get to the wage im on. I coudlve went elsewhere and got the perks of a company car,yearly bonuses etc, but i decided to stay with where i was.Security.:rolleyes:

It took me aaaaaages to earn a "decent" salary.

I took a mortgage out on the strength of that in 2007. I wasnt going to make major money, but i hoped i wasnt going to lose much either (how wrong was i?).I stayed in the middle.

OP you make it sound amazing "wooo €53k"!!

That gave me on my own a €240k mortgage by myself in 07. You're conveniently forgetting thats a "gross value". Take off a stupid amount of PAYE,PRSI,Income Levy,Pension Levy,Spouse &Childrens Contribtion (yes compulsory)...hammered. Add on everyday bills...and seriously you're not left with much.

By the way reduce that gross figure by €3.5k gross from this yr.

Im sick to the back teeth of hearing "public sector this,public sector that".

The rest of the country have put us in a bubble in their heads going "lazy f*ckers,loaded,do feck all,brian cowens puppy blah blah blah"

K-9 wrote: »

Look, I supported the pension levy and cuts in Public Sector pay.

I supported some kind of pay cut, but not to the extent of whats gone on in the last yr.

K-9 wrote: »

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

+1

AH isnt the place for this kind of debate,but if one person on here realises that "most" people in the public sector arent to blame for the state of the gaff that is our country....ill be a happy bunny.

Super-Rush · 06-02-2010 03:36AM

Guys can we keep this CIVIL please?

Seriously.

CDfm · 06-02-2010 03:36AM

K-9 wrote: »

Depends, many Private Sector companies apply increments too. I'm not up on the economics of it. Any links on it?

not to the same extent and are productivity profit based

it would be very unusual for clerical/admin staff to be on equivalent increments that offer up to twice starting salary after 30 years.

you would not get that

This benchmarking lark was a disaster, nearly as bad as our property obsession. Public sector workers are obsessed in comparing with the Private Sector and then the Private Sector are probably more obsessed in comparing themselves vice versa.

Disaster - it was a conjob

It did not compare to the private sector like for like or to the wages for equivalent jobs in europe

alone it contributed to the escalation/spiraling of house prices as it drove salaries up and mortgages are a multiple of salaries.

increments also meant a person like our friend could borrow more than a prudent 3 times salary on his mortgage

also the pension levy is only right and is probvably on a tenth of what it should be

ascanbe · 06-02-2010 03:50AM

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.

So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask

Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Hilarious.
You have to pick out examples, whose position you then misrepresent, and are in no way representative anyway, and use this set up to attack public sector workers.
Hasn't this been done ad nauseum?
By the way, all the suppossed 'wealth creators' who have now lost their jobs aren't paying tax, at the moment, anyway, so what are you talking about?
I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.
Perhaps you were one of the 'wealth creators' or someone who CHOSE to work for them and perhaps, CHOSE to sign up for a mortgage and get yourself in debt that you now can't pay.
But only the public sector deserves to be attacked; it's their fault, right?
I suggest you take a course in basic logic.
So you now attack people who happen to work for the public sector?
If you have a legitimate point to make about how Ireland can get out of this mess, theN make it.
Ramp down the hysteria.
Personally, i can't see a way, at this moment. Your beloved 'wealth creators', in combination with their lackeys in government, have made it all but impossible.

Fulton Crown · 06-02-2010 04:01AM

Look Pal ..it's not about generalisations!

My take on this ? Most public sector workers are decent people who want to contribute.

But the whole management structure is rotten to the core....

Fcuk all incentive..fcuk all reward to go the extra mile.

People sink into the swamp of conformity and the sub norm becomes the norm

Ad infinitum.

K-9 · 06-02-2010 04:05AM

anniehoo wrote: »

I supported some kind of pay cut, but not to the extent of whats gone on in the last yr.

+1

AH isnt the place for this kind of debate,but if one person on here realises that "most" people in the public sector arent to blame for the state of the gaff that is our country....ill be a happy bunny.

Well, I differed because I could see there wasn't much other option in the last budget. This time, I see it differently. People can't expect 1 sector of society to shoulder the major cuts.

If that is the agenda in the next budget, I think cuts in the minimum wage and Social Welfare should also be the agenda. One sector can't shoulder all the burden, 3 budgets in a row.

And remember if minimum wage and SW is on the agenda, everybody else's wages will be cut. Smaller minimum wage and cuts in wages = less tax receipts = bigger budget shortfall = more cuts = more taxes.

CDfm wrote: »

not to the same extent and are productivity profit based

it would be very unusual for clerical/admin staff to be on equivalent increments that offer up to twice starting salary after 30 years.

you would not get that

Disaster - it was a conjob

It did not compare to the private sector like for like or to the wages for equivalent jobs in europe

alone it contributed to the escalation/spiraling of house prices as it drove salaries up and mortgages are a multiple of salaries.

increments also meant a person like our friend could borrow more than a prudent 3 times salary on his mortgage

also the pension levy is only right and is probvably on a tenth of what it should be

House prices drove all wages up, including private sector wages.

Increments of double a wage over 30 years wherenormal. The Private Sector and Employers where part of partnership you know?

The Pension levy should be about 65% Gross? Maybe it should but good luck with that!

Any sign of those economic links?

CDfm · 06-02-2010 04:07AM

ascanbe wrote: »

I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.

i would like to see you post links to actual factual statistics that the public service were ever underpaid compared to the private sector or compared to their european or uk equivalents

the basis for benchmarking was a public service spin

Perhaps you were one of the 'wealth creators' or someone who CHOSE to work for them and perhaps, CHOSE to sign up for a mortgage and get yourself in debt that you now can't pay.

lots of the taxes were paid by peoiple such as blocklayers and labourers and foreign nationals who are no longer here or working.

so unemployment in the private sector rose but not the public sector who get paid the same money

But only the public sector deserves to be attacked; it's their fault, right?
I suggest you take a course in basic logic.

so the public sector workers do not make up a huge interest group with political power and insider knowledge.

Personally, i can't see a way, at this moment. You're beloved 'wealth creators', in combination with their lackeys in government, have made it all but impossible.

i think when you get down to it you are saying that it was the taxes of carpenters electricians blocklayers factory workers barstaff and shopworkers that paid the public service wages

the big developers are only a handful of people everyone else lives normal lives

you need to transfer your thinking to that of ordinary folk and not these mythical government lackeys

ascanbe · 06-02-2010 04:09AM

darkman2 wrote: »

And you think public servants do?:pac:

What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike? Do you think the private sector would for one second support the public servants? I don't think so. I would say have the strike and we can get this stuff out of the way and sort the public service out once and for all.

That's what Maggie did. Not a fan of her Irish policy but she did Britain a service. More service then the public sector there ever did.

Are you aware of 'Maggie's' role in driving Britain away from manufacturing? Y'know, actually producing stuff?
Are you aware of how Maggie and Reagan's drive towards making their countries reliant on 'financial services' i.e. the whims and imagination of the 'masters of the universe' deified in their respective countries, have led to their ruin?
Are you aware that we are in this position because we followed the same 'pie in the sky' economics?
Produce nothing, borrow, spend, spend, spend. Build houses, ramp up employment based on building these houses on borrowed money, have those employed borrow money to buy these houses from the same banks who have lent the money to those 'wealth creators' who have built the houses.
Yeah, that's genius; that's why we are where we are.
Still, why bother trying to understand when you can direct your vitriol towards the public service?

darkman2 · 06-02-2010 04:10AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Hilarious.
You have to pick out examples, whose position you then misrepresent, and are in no way representative anyway, and use this set up to attack public sector workers.
Hasn't this been done ad nauseum?
By the way, all the suppossed 'wealth creators' who have now lost their jobs aren't paying tax, at the moment, anyway, so what are you talking about?
I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.

Which Unions were walking in and out of Government buildings with massive pay increases every year? You talk about wealth creators now not wealth creating. No **** Sherlock they have been sacked. Which means less money for the public servant cohort. Can you, unlike the Unions, put 2 and 2 together? Less employed in the private sector means less for public sector. Half of them should be sacked. The remaining half a 40% pay cut on top of the cuts already. This will happen anyway when the IMF comes. May aswell do it now.

BTW everyone attacking the OP is a public servant or has a relation public servant. I understand you don't like the truth. But you will just have to find out and take it.

K-9 · 06-02-2010 04:11AM

Oh and a reminder of what a well paid Public Servants pays on over 50k odd

41% Tax

8% PRSI

2% Income Levy

10% New Pension levy

6% old Pension Levy

Yep, 67% deductions, about 59/60% Net. Great incentive for overtime.

My Dad used to give out about deductions like that in the 80's.

ascanbe · 06-02-2010 04:13AM

CDfm wrote: »

i would like to see you post links to actual factual statistics that the public service were ever underpaid compared to the private sector or compared to their european or uk equivalents

the basis for benchmarking was a public service spin

lots of the taxes were paid by peoiple such as blocklayers and labourers and foreign nationals who are no longer here or working.

so unemployment in the private sector rose but not the public sector who get paid the same money

so the public sector workers do not make up a huge interest group with political power and insider knowledge.

i think when you get down to it you are saying that it was the taxes of carpenters electricians blocklayers factory workers barstaff and shopworkers that paid the public service wages

the big developers are only a handful of people everyone else lives normal lives

you need to transfer your thinking to that of ordinary folk and not these mythical government lackeys

I was about to try and find a way to break up the points you made, as you did mine, in order to respond; don't know how to do that.
Then i read the points you made, in response to mine, and realised that, in each case, you were responding to points i didn't infact make.
So i didn't bother.

K-9 · 06-02-2010 04:14AM

CDfm wrote: »

you would not get that

I very much get that, so need for that.

CDfm · 06-02-2010 04:17AM

K-9 wrote: »

House prices drove all wages up, including private sector wages.

Increments of double a wage over 30 years wherenormal. The Private Sector and Employers where part of partnership you know?

The Pension levy should be about 65% Gross? Maybe it should but good luck with that!

Any sign of those economic links?

its years since i did any work on economics but i am an economist by training

anyway i am sure you are familiar with the accounting practice of amortizing which breaks large payments into smaller installments over time or acturial assumptions.

if the assumptions you use in your model are wrong then it doesnt work

you do not need links to tell you the assumptions were wrong - common sense would tell you that

clinging to the partnership or using that as justification is silly as its assumptions were wrong and to work it would have to allow decreases back to a base - as a mechanism it worked in a boom.

it also was not accountable to parliment or its assumptions could not be checked. a magic roundabout,

ascanbe · 06-02-2010 04:23AM

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.

So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask

Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Hilarious.
You have to pick out examples, who's position you then misrepresent, and are in no way representative anyway, and use this set up to attack public sector workers.
Hasn't this been done ad nauseum?
By the way, all the suppossed 'wealth creators' who have now lost their jobs aren't paying tax, at the moment, anyway, so what are you talking about?
I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.
Perhaps you were one of the 'wealth creators' or someone who CHOSE to work for them and perhaps, CHOSE to sign up for a mortgage and get yourself in debt that you now can't pay.
But only the public sector deserves to be attacked; it's their fault, right?
I suggest you take a course in basic logic.
So you now attack people who happen to work for the public sector?
If you have a legitimate point to make about how Ireland can get out of this mess, the make it.
Ramp down the hysteria.
Personally, i can't see a way, at this moment. You're beloved 'wealth creators', in combination with their lackeys in government, have made it all put impossible.

Tigger · 06-02-2010 04:24AM

nobody is happy with a paycut

i have takeen a 60% cut (stalk me if you want but where i work is immiterial)

if i'm still paying tax i';m happy; now look inside work harder and lets productivity ourselves outa this

CDfm · 06-02-2010 04:24AM

ascanbe wrote: »

I was about to try and find a way to break up the points you made, as you did mine, in order to respond; don't know how to do that.
Then i read the points you made, in response to mine, and realised that, in each case, you were responding to points i didn't infact make.
So i didn't bother.

my arguments are logical and factual and not based on economic politics

CDfm · 06-02-2010 04:27AM

Tigger wrote: »

nobody is happy with a paycut

i have takeen a 60% cut (stalk me if you want but where i work is immiterial)

if i'm still paying tax i';m happy; now look inside work harder and lets productivity ourselves outa this

lots of people have taken huge cuts soime have gone broke too

not a civil servant though

CDfm · 06-02-2010 04:30AM

K-9 wrote: »

Oh and a reminder of what a well paid Public Servants pays on over 50k odd

41% Tax

8% PRSI

2% Income Levy

10% New Pension levy

6% old Pension Levy

Yep, 67% deductions, about 59/60% Net. Great incentive for overtime.

My Dad used to give out about deductions like that in the 80's.

now you are getting the seriousness of it

its like the movie back to the future where we are being driven back to the 80s and no housing boom will bail us out

the assumptions/expectations people are making assume such an event -it is gone

Pay more tax to bail out Public Servants?

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