Pay more tax to bail out Public Servants?

darkman2

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.


So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask


Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

SoupyNorman

Ah not tonight.

Pot Noodle =

I am in my Billix minimum wage from now on because they are nothing special a Wombat could there work

CDfm

Just get rid of the incremental pay rises based on years of service as a mechanism and in a few years the system would rectify itself.

10% paycut but you will automatically get X% increase

thats simple economics.

Madness and a spin

I couldnt make it Up in the Cuckoos Nest

CDfm

Pot wrote:

I am in my Billix minimum wage from now on because they are nothing special a Wombat could there work

Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

mikom

darkman2 wrote: »

Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Yes, I've set aside two grand for such a situation.
Happy now?

Pot Noodle =

CDfm wrote: »

Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

Hurrayah

Pot Noodle =

mikom wrote: »

Yes, I've set aside two grand for such a situation.
Happy now?

Assistant Secretary me tinks

Mal-Adjusted

CDfm wrote: »

Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

:rolleyes:

mikom

Pot wrote:

Assistant Secretary me tinks

You're a traveller?

Pot Noodle =

They are probably Special Though

Pot Noodle =

mikom wrote: »

You're a traveller?

MIKEY HOW ARE YA

CDfm

mikom wrote: »

Yes, I've set aside two grand for such a situation.
Happy now?

Send the money to Pot Noodle= - he handles all donations of that type PM him your address and have the money ready.

bean na gaeilge

Firstly, I hate the way you generalise public servants and presume we are all secure etc .... studied 4 years for my qualification, had no financial help from parents... now I'm teaching and getting sweet f a... pay has been cut 3 times since I started teaching. I understand what you are saying but not all 'public servants' are in the same boat. Im not even hitting the 30k a year and I am hoping to build a house, it will be a long time in the pipeline. I hear my collegues complaining about 'the quality of life' change etc, but all that means for them is cutting down on a few holidays a year, or having to cut back on forking out 50 or 60 euro a week on manicures, facials etc, a luxury most of us never have had to begin with. I see your point, but less of the generalisation please!:D

mikom

Pot wrote:

MIKEY HOW ARE YA

Not a bother boss.
Have ya seen me brudder John Paul about?

BrianD3

Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector.

How much wealth does the non-exporting private sector (which is a big chunk of it) generate for this country.

CDfm

But BnaG you studied and it was your choice. You would not be working as a teacher if the pay and conditions were better elsewhere now would you.:rolleyes:

EDIT 436 a week net is not bad starting off

Fulton Crown

A half serious reply for a change in AH !

No - I would not pay more tax to bail out "Civil" Servants .

I really beliefe that though there are many dedicated and hard working civil servs - there is a serious canker all acoss the Public Service.

Not entirely their fault...take somebody in a local authority charged with dealing with the public....what incentive have they to be helpful and go the extra mile..the "customer" can't go elsewhwere..and the whole supervisory structure is to avoid responsibility at all costs.

Not a surprise realy that we should be so poorly served by our Public Servants .

arybvtcw0eolkf

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

Firstly, I hate the way you generalise public servants and presume we are all secure etc .... studied 4 years for my qualification, had no financial help from parents... now I'm teaching and getting sweet f a... pay has been cut 3 times since I started teaching. I understand what you are saying but not all 'public servants' are in the same boat. Im not even hitting the 30k a year and I am hoping to build a house, it will be a long time in the pipeline. I hear my collegues complaining about 'the quality of life' change etc, but all that means for them is cutting down on a few holidays a year, or having to cut back on forking out 50 or 60 euro a week on manicures, facials etc, a luxury most of us never have had to begin with. I see your point, but less of the generalisation please!:D

When he's finished feeding from the bottom of the pond he posts up this crap from time to time, don't take it to heart and finally, don't humour him with a response.

bean na gaeilge

CDfm wrote: »

But BnaG you studied and it was your choice. You would not be working as a teacher if the pay and conditions were better elsewhere now would you.:rolleyes:

To be honest I would work as a teacher. I love my job and love the language. I worked for 6 years as a bar maid, loved every minute of it and the pay was crap but it got me by. The only downfall there was the shifts played havoc with my health. My career was my choice just like everyone chooses thier own path. I could be worse off, Im lucky to have a job I know that, don't get me wrong but not every public sector worker has it easy with big fat wage cheques every two weeks or 50 k + of a salary.... thats my point:rolleyes:. Any one who is complaining about being on 60k or that a year obviously has major priority issues....

darkman2

Madden Narrow Flake wrote: »

When he's finished feeding from the bottom of the pond he posts up this crap from time to time, don't take it to heart and finally, don't humour him with a response.

How about you don't insult posters? I shall refrain from complaining...for the moment. You would be better served presumably modding whatever forum you mod rather then having a go at other posters. That will only result in bad things happening.

bean na gaeilge

Madden Narrow Flake wrote: »

When he's finished feeding from the bottom of the pond he posts up this crap from time to time, don't take it to heart and finally, don't humour him with a response.

Thanks for the advice.... ps I lost a few classes this year due to cut backs.... so that 436 is no more.... :mad:

Ok guys time for the leaba.... I'll leave ye to it

SeaFields

aint this a simple principle....

Public sector workers your employer is broke. That employer is the irish state. Your employer gains its income to pay its employees through taxation of its citizens. Another problem...citizens are broke - through a combination of unemployment and debt. Solution for irish state - pay less to employees.

I should be the feckin taoiseach! :cool:

hooradiation

darkman2 wrote: »

Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

if it irritates you, I'll pay whatever is asked of me.

Some things money can't buy...but your populist hysteria?
Very cheap and worth every penny.

CDfm

Madden Narrow Flake wrote: »

When he's finished feeding from the bottom of the pond he posts up this crap from time to time, don't take it to heart and finally, don't humour him with a response.

he has a point -lots of public and civil servants benefited with huge payrises from unsustainable tax revenue as a result of the housing boom.

huge increments and earning wages up to 50% higher than the public sector and 20 to 30% higher than the european average for the same work.

taking an ostrich in the sand approach wont work.

arybvtcw0eolkf

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.... ps I lost a few classes this year due to cut backs.... so that 436 is no more.... :mad:

Ok guys time for the leaba.... I'll leave ye to it

Goodnight, and thanks for your service.

darkman2

hooradiation wrote: »

if it irritates you, I'll pay whatever is asked of me.

Some things money can't buy...but your populist hysteria?
Very cheap and worth every penny.

The only people this topic irritates for it's exposure to 1000's of posters is Civil Servants. Im not supprised at their reaction. The minority unfortunately for those is the public servants. The majority think as I think. And that worries public servants.

CDfm

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

To be honest I would work as a teacher. I love my job and love the language. I worked for 6 years as a bar maid, loved every minute of it and the pay was crap but it got me by. The only downfall there was the shifts played havoc with my health. My career was my choice just like everyone chooses thier own path. I could be worse off, Im lucky to have a job I know that, don't get me wrong but not every public sector worker has it easy with big fat wage cheques every two weeks or 50 k + of a salary.... thats my point:rolleyes:. Any one who is complaining about being on 60k or that a year obviously has major priority issues....

the current crop are overpaid - pity there isnt more of you who appreciate the cushy (and i use the word loosely) role

In a free market you would be able to compete and get the job you deserve

hooradiation wrote: »

if it irritates you, I'll pay whatever is asked of me.

Some things money can't buy...but your populist hysteria?
Very cheap and worth every penny.

Pot Noodle= is taking up a collection 2,000 is the usual donation. Have it ready and he will make sure it goes to the needy.

Fulton Crown

SeaFields wrote: »

aint this a simple principle....

Public sector workers your employer is broke. That employer is the irish state. Your employer gains its income to pay its employees through taxation of its citizens. Another problem...citizens are broke - through a combination of unemployment and debt. Solution for irish state - pay less to employees.

I should be the feckin taoiseach! :cool:

Good post pal ...but the gimpos dont seem to get it...feeling is that no matter how low the economy sinks "we should be paid the same".

Uh Oh ! Reality check needed urgently..

Why do they not get it ?

hooradiation

darkman2 wrote: »

The majority think as I think. .

It's cute you believe that, but AH is a classic angry tabloid echo chamber.

Just because you can create any topic about public servants being universally awful and have 20 mouth breathers jump on board saying how awesome you are doesn't mean you speak for the people, kid.

Red Hand

This thread makes want to vomit in rage!:mad:

darkman2

hooradiation wrote: »

It's cute you believe that, but AH is a classic angry tabloid echo chamber.

Just because you can create any topic about public servants being universally awful and have 20 mouth breathers jump on board saying how awesome you are doesn't mean you speak for the people, kid.

And you think public servants do?:pac:


What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike? Do you think the private sector would for one second support the public servants? I don't think so. I would say have the strike and we can get this stuff out of the way and sort the public service out once and for all.

That's what Maggie did. Not a fan of her Irish policy but she did Britain a service. More service then the public sector there ever did.

mikom

darkman2 wrote: »

What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike?

Priests with placards?

Helix

its gas

laughed at for years for being a civil servant on "awful wages when theres loads more money to be had in the private sector", now all of a sudden "everyone in the civil service is making a fortune"

if the civil service was that fcukin cushy a number why didnt everyone whos currently whinging about it join it when they had the chance?

CDfm

hooradiation wrote: »

It's cute you believe that, but AH is a classic angry tabloid echo chamber.

Just because you can create any topic about public servants being universally awful and have 20 mouth breathers jump on board saying how awesome you are doesn't mean you speak for the people, kid.

He speaks for me and if he is young he makes sence

ok

1+1=2

if i have sell 8 oranges but only have 5 in stock I am a civil servant

hooradiation

darkman2 wrote: »

And you think public servants do?:pac:

I can't recall any public servant telling me that the majority think as they do, so.... I'm going to go with no.

Only you, in your infinite yet impotent rage have made that claim.

CDfm wrote: »

He speaks for me and if he is young he makes sence

ok

1+1=2

if i have sell 8 oranges but only have 5 in stock I am a civil servant

Go to bed.

K-9

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.


So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask


Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Fulton Crown wrote: »

A half serious reply for a change in AH !

No - I would not pay more tax to bail out "Civil" Servants .

I really beliefe that though there are many dedicated and hard working civil servs - there is a serious canker all acoss the Public Service.

Not entirely their fault...take somebody in a local authority charged with dealing with the public....what incentive have they to be helpful and go the extra mile..the "customer" can't go elsewhwere..and the whole supervisory structure is to avoid responsibility at all costs.

Not a surprise realy that we should be so poorly served by our Public Servants .

Look, I supported the pension levy and cuts in Public Sector pay.

Barry would have took about a 6.5% Gross pay cut with the levy (3.3% Net, assuming top rate tax) and about another 5% Gross pay cut (about 2/2.5% Net).

As for the 300k mortgage, he got of light enough compared to some. Yes, he shouldn't have borrowed that much, but the banks, the ones we are bailing out, should never have lent him that much.

He is having his pay cut, show a little compassion. It isn't the sole preserve of the Private Sector. Plenty of Private Sector workers took out the same mortgages and are now unemployed, but getting State help through Mortgage Interest Relief.

Anyway, no, I am not prepared to prepared to pay more tax to bail him out. I am prepared to pay more tax to maintain the services he provides, like hospitals, schools etc.

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

CDfm

Helix wrote: »

its gas

laughed at for years for being a civil servant on "awful wages when theres loads more money to be had in the private sector", now all of a sudden "everyone in the civil service is making a fortune"

if the civil service was that fcukin cushy a number why didnt everyone whos currently whinging about it join it when they had the chance?

has it occured to you that it was a spin put out by the public service

i have friends in the public sector and never doubted how well paid they were -ever

EDIT

K-9 wrote: »

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

They are overpaid compared to the private sector

The incremental payrises based on years of service are bad economics

Helix

the ones in the middle make too much, if that makes any sense at all. but they ascend to middle management purely on seniority, not ability. they can be the worst in the world at their jobs, but putely coz theyve been there long enough theyll make pretty bloody good money. theyre the ones who cost the state in wasted money

the majority of people id imagine are at the lower pay scales (which are far from well paid), moving upwards towards the top in a decreasing pyramid

the ones at the top make too much too, but the effective ones would most likely just go to the private sector to get paid as much instead, and its probably better for the nation having them working in the public sector (this is something it took me a while to realise to be honest)

Pygmalion

CDfm wrote: »

Pot Noodle is right -they dont have special skills

Grand so, next time you need surgery give me a PM, I'll do it for €100, and I'll educate your kids for half that.

ejmaztec

bean na gaeilge wrote: »

I am hoping to build a house, it will be a long time in the pipeline.

Why do you want to build a house in a pipe?

K-9

CDfm wrote: »

has it occured to you that it was a spin put out by the public service

i have friends in the public sector and never doubted how well paid they were -ever

EDIT

They are overpaid compared to the private sector

The incremental payrises based on years of service are bad economics

Depends, many Private Sector companies apply increments too. I'm not up on the economics of it. Any links on it?

Some I'm sure are overpaid, some are probably paid ok, some are probably underpaid, who knows? One or 2 statistics can hide many small but important details.

This benchmarking lark was a disaster, nearly as bad as our property obsession. Public sector workers are obsessed in comparing with the Private Sector and then the Private Sector are probably more obsessed in comparing themselves vice versa.

Helix wrote: »

the ones in the middle make too much, if that makes any sense at all. but they ascend to middle management purely on seniority, not ability. they can be the worst in the world at their jobs, but putely coz theyve been there long enough theyll make pretty bloody good money. theyre the ones who cost the state in wasted money

the majority of people id imagine are at the lower pay scales (which are far from well paid), moving upwards towards the top in a decreasing pyramid

the ones at the top make too much too, but the effective ones would most likely just go to the private sector to get paid as much instead, and its probably better for the nation having them working in the public sector (this is something it took me a while to realise to be honest)

Nail on head. It tends to be middle management heavy. Another generalisation, but tends to be true.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Why do you want to build a house in a pipe?

an irish teacher from the gaeltacht

she will obviously get lots of grants and the pipe bit is probably new green technology

In soviet russia house buy you

anniehoo

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage.

darkman2 im only quoting a little of your post.Literally i could pick out problems with everything you've said.

A public sector job, yes.. was..."secure" and "pensionable" up until 5 years ago.Now its not so easy.Its taken me 9 yrs to get to the wage im on. I coudlve went elsewhere and got the perks of a company car,yearly bonuses etc, but i decided to stay with where i was.Security.:rolleyes:

It took me aaaaaages to earn a "decent" salary.

I took a mortgage out on the strength of that in 2007. I wasnt going to make major money, but i hoped i wasnt going to lose much either (how wrong was i?).I stayed in the middle.

OP you make it sound amazing "wooo €53k"!!

That gave me on my own a €240k mortgage by myself in 07. You're conveniently forgetting thats a "gross value". Take off a stupid amount of PAYE,PRSI,Income Levy,Pension Levy,Spouse &Childrens Contribtion (yes compulsory)...hammered. Add on everyday bills...and seriously you're not left with much.

By the way reduce that gross figure by €3.5k gross from this yr.

Im sick to the back teeth of hearing "public sector this,public sector that".

The rest of the country have put us in a bubble in their heads going "lazy f*ckers,loaded,do feck all,brian cowens puppy blah blah blah"

K-9 wrote: »

Look, I supported the pension levy and cuts in Public Sector pay.

I supported some kind of pay cut, but not to the extent of whats gone on in the last yr.

K-9 wrote: »

The public service have had their pay cut. Time for tax increases for everybody now and ps. that includes public servants.

+1

AH isnt the place for this kind of debate,but if one person on here realises that "most" people in the public sector arent to blame for the state of the gaff that is our country....ill be a happy bunny.

Super-Rush

Guys can we keep this CIVIL please?


Seriously.

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

Depends, many Private Sector companies apply increments too. I'm not up on the economics of it. Any links on it?

not to the same extent and are productivity profit based

it would be very unusual for clerical/admin staff to be on equivalent increments that offer up to twice starting salary after 30 years.

you would not get that

This benchmarking lark was a disaster, nearly as bad as our property obsession. Public sector workers are obsessed in comparing with the Private Sector and then the Private Sector are probably more obsessed in comparing themselves vice versa.

Disaster - it was a conjob

It did not compare to the private sector like for like or to the wages for equivalent jobs in europe

alone it contributed to the escalation/spiraling of house prices as it drove salaries up and mortgages are a multiple of salaries.

increments also meant a person like our friend could borrow more than a prudent 3 times salary on his mortgage

also the pension levy is only right and is probvably on a tenth of what it should be

ascanbe

darkman2 wrote: »

Public Servants, ah those with secure jobs and pensions, they are not too happy atm with a mere downgrade of their "quality of life". Or so said a recent letter to the Irish Times by "Barry" who was moaning about his measly 53,000 a year and 300k mortgage. (he describes himeself as a "low to middle pay public worker" btw, 53,000!) Not a mention of course of the further 3,000 actual wealth creators added to the dole from the private sector. What is their "quality of life" like now I wonder? The mere fact this letter talked about "quality of life" had me fuming. "Quality of life"!?. Well thats what they are moaning about and treathening to strike over. Im left asking did I force him, as a taxpayer, to take out his unaffordable mortgage? Did I do something wrong? It's like the teacher who was attacking Brian Lenihan for the mere pension levy because she had a 600k mortgage.


So I am contemplating this. Their Unions threathen us in the real world who create money with strikes (i.e everyone in the private sector) and they use the argument about "bailing out banks". Considering alot of Public Servants seem to have made stupid financial decisions themselves I want to ask


Are you prepared to pay more tax to bail out public servants?

Hilarious.
You have to pick out examples, whose position you then misrepresent, and are in no way representative anyway, and use this set up to attack public sector workers.
Hasn't this been done ad nauseum?
By the way, all the suppossed 'wealth creators' who have now lost their jobs aren't paying tax, at the moment, anyway, so what are you talking about?
I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.
Perhaps you were one of the 'wealth creators' or someone who CHOSE to work for them and perhaps, CHOSE to sign up for a mortgage and get yourself in debt that you now can't pay.
But only the public sector deserves to be attacked; it's their fault, right?
I suggest you take a course in basic logic.
So you now attack people who happen to work for the public sector?
If you have a legitimate point to make about how Ireland can get out of this mess, theN make it.
Ramp down the hysteria.
Personally, i can't see a way, at this moment. Your beloved 'wealth creators', in combination with their lackeys in government, have made it all but impossible.

Fulton Crown

Look Pal ..it's not about generalisations!

My take on this ? Most public sector workers are decent people who want to contribute.

But the whole management structure is rotten to the core....

Fcuk all incentive..fcuk all reward to go the extra mile.

People sink into the swamp of conformity and the sub norm becomes the norm

Ad infinitum.

K-9

anniehoo wrote: »

I supported some kind of pay cut, but not to the extent of whats gone on in the last yr.


+1

AH isnt the place for this kind of debate,but if one person on here realises that "most" people in the public sector arent to blame for the state of the gaff that is our country....ill be a happy bunny.

Well, I differed because I could see there wasn't much other option in the last budget. This time, I see it differently. People can't expect 1 sector of society to shoulder the major cuts.

If that is the agenda in the next budget, I think cuts in the minimum wage and Social Welfare should also be the agenda. One sector can't shoulder all the burden, 3 budgets in a row.

And remember if minimum wage and SW is on the agenda, everybody else's wages will be cut. Smaller minimum wage and cuts in wages = less tax receipts = bigger budget shortfall = more cuts = more taxes.

CDfm wrote: »

not to the same extent and are productivity profit based

it would be very unusual for clerical/admin staff to be on equivalent increments that offer up to twice starting salary after 30 years.

you would not get that



Disaster - it was a conjob

It did not compare to the private sector like for like or to the wages for equivalent jobs in europe

alone it contributed to the escalation/spiraling of house prices as it drove salaries up and mortgages are a multiple of salaries.

increments also meant a person like our friend could borrow more than a prudent 3 times salary on his mortgage

also the pension levy is only right and is probvably on a tenth of what it should be

House prices drove all wages up, including private sector wages.

Increments of double a wage over 30 years wherenormal. The Private Sector and Employers where part of partnership you know?

The Pension levy should be about 65% Gross? Maybe it should but good luck with that!

Any sign of those economic links?

CDfm

ascanbe wrote: »

I'd imagine you're one of those people who were laughing at those dumb enough to stick with public sector jobs, when the 'wealth creators' were riding high and all but fellating themselves.

i would like to see you post links to actual factual statistics that the public service were ever underpaid compared to the private sector or compared to their european or uk equivalents

the basis for benchmarking was a public service spin

Perhaps you were one of the 'wealth creators' or someone who CHOSE to work for them and perhaps, CHOSE to sign up for a mortgage and get yourself in debt that you now can't pay.

lots of the taxes were paid by peoiple such as blocklayers and labourers and foreign nationals who are no longer here or working.

so unemployment in the private sector rose but not the public sector who get paid the same money

But only the public sector deserves to be attacked; it's their fault, right?
I suggest you take a course in basic logic.

so the public sector workers do not make up a huge interest group with political power and insider knowledge.

Personally, i can't see a way, at this moment. You're beloved 'wealth creators', in combination with their lackeys in government, have made it all but impossible.

i think when you get down to it you are saying that it was the taxes of carpenters electricians blocklayers factory workers barstaff and shopworkers that paid the public service wages

the big developers are only a handful of people everyone else lives normal lives

you need to transfer your thinking to that of ordinary folk and not these mythical government lackeys

ascanbe

darkman2 wrote: »

And you think public servants do?:pac:


What do you think will happen if there is a mass strike? Do you think the private sector would for one second support the public servants? I don't think so. I would say have the strike and we can get this stuff out of the way and sort the public service out once and for all.

That's what Maggie did. Not a fan of her Irish policy but she did Britain a service. More service then the public sector there ever did.

Are you aware of 'Maggie's' role in driving Britain away from manufacturing? Y'know, actually producing stuff?
Are you aware of how Maggie and Reagan's drive towards making their countries reliant on 'financial services' i.e. the whims and imagination of the 'masters of the universe' deified in their respective countries, have led to their ruin?
Are you aware that we are in this position because we followed the same 'pie in the sky' economics?
Produce nothing, borrow, spend, spend, spend. Build houses, ramp up employment based on building these houses on borrowed money, have those employed borrow money to buy these houses from the same banks who have lent the money to those 'wealth creators' who have built the houses.
Yeah, that's genius; that's why we are where we are.
Still, why bother trying to understand when you can direct your vitriol towards the public service?