Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

Biggins · 29-01-2010 05:52PM

prinz wrote: »

May I ask what schools people are applying for? I went to a school ostensibly run by a Catholic religious order and never one was I/or my parents asked for a baptism cert Catholic or otherwise? Neither was I ever asked indicate my religous affiliation. Not only that by my year included Protestants and Muslims. The only religious instruction we got was half an hour a week in all the world's major religions. The two best teachers in the place were members of the religious order and neither were involved in teaching the religion class. It was an excellent school, and excellent because of the people who ran the school i.e. a Catholic order, however not once in 5 years was I or my class exposed to any sort of Catholic instruction, Christian bias etc.

Your lucky.
I have four young children. When applying for a placement in schools in our area we were continuously asked if we could supply a copy of their baptism cert.
When we mentioned that we didn't possess one for them, the words back was roughly the same: "You know that makes things very difficult for you then..."
(I paraphrase)
We are not the only ones. Over time I've come across reports from other parents who go where my kids go now (to an "Educate Together" school) that they meet or met the same brick wall.
There was if my memory serves me right, a number of media stories also in the last year or so by similar parents.

Here is an example of the type of form that was handed to us:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~clontubrid/about_us/01401policy_enrolment.html

Religious Denomination: _________________________________
Date and Place of Baptism: _________________________________
(Please attach copy of Baptismal Cert. if baptised outside "where-ever" Parish.)

Once the above was brought to the attention of the school we were applying to - BANG - the face of the brick wall hit us!

So to repeat the words....

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

...pure PR bullschite.

prinz · 29-01-2010 05:56PM

Antbert wrote: »

And if that is the case, handing the schools over to the state clearly either makes no difference, or makes a positive difference to the children, depending on the school...Except it does still make a difference. Even if some schools are more relaxed about their indoctrination, having the schools run by the church stands as a really bad symbol for the country.

Not necessarily. If you investigate somewhere like Germany, where state schools and schools run by religious are completely different you would see that "Christian" run schools have waiting lists, fare better on comparative studies, have students that perform better than those in State run schools, etc etc.

By all means have 'state schools' and 'church' run schools but be prepared for the outcome as someone said already a "third tier". All the people who were so vocal for the church role to be removed will be the very ones joining a waiting list to get little Mary or John into the church run school a few years later.

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2010 05:57PM

Wazdakka wrote: »

Does nobody remember the dark ages??

We'd all be living in space, eating food in pill form, have solved the energy crisis and own hover boards by now if it wasn't for religious organisations interfering in the progression of the species.

I want a hoverboard Dammit!! :mad:

As I history student I just can't let this go...

I think you'll find that the lose of technology during the dark ages had more to do with the fall of the Roman Empire, and along with it it's knowledge, then the Roman Catholic church.

The power the church gained was more of a bi-product of the loss of thechnology then the cause.

Overheal · 29-01-2010 06:00PM

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
The worst that 30 minutes of Christian education a day can do is make children more altruistic in nature by believing in Jesus.

See this is what I dont get: You think its impossible to instill love, kindness, honesty repsect and altruism without making it Religious? I can't be kind unless I believe in Jesus Christ? Riiight.

Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.

I think you may be seriously overlooking the factor of Conformity. It would not be the first discussion had on these here boards about Parents who Identify their children as catholic and have their children Baptised only in so that their child is given a better chance at school.

Why do they have a better chance at school? Because the Church has its hands stuck so far up the State's hole that the State has become its puppet, and like the Troll said earlier, this arrangement is leaving the Secular schools out in the fringes of nowhere while the Catholic-run schools are afforded the Lion's share of the taxpayer's money and afforded the best facilities while Secular schools run into disrepair.

Further, the argument that the church doesn't have the right to instil Christian values such as love and respect in children is bogus because it is these same religious principals that most Irish people hold to be true.

Churches, Synagogues, Mosques - Nobody in the United States prevents children from going to these religious organizations to seek a religiously founded learning. The Major Difference is it doesnt happen in School between the hours of 8 and 3.

Where in the hell are all of Ireland's Sunday Schools, I ask you.

prinz · 29-01-2010 06:01PM

Biggins wrote: »

Here is an example of the type of form that was handed to us:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~clontubrid/about_us/01401policy_enrolment.html

No child is refused admission for reasons of ethnicity, special educational needs, disability, language/accent, gender (except for schools with a single sex tradition) traveller status, asylum-seeker/refugee status, religious/political beliefs and values, family or social circumstances.

Those dastardly discriminating bast*rds..... :rolleyes:

Biggins · 29-01-2010 06:03PM

prinz wrote: »

Those dastardly discriminating bast*rds..... :rolleyes:

Aye right!

Catholic schools in Ireland have the right to refuse the enrolment of children who are not Catholic i.e. not baptised. The Equal Status Act (2000 - 2004) states that:
"where the establishment is a school providing primary or post-primary education to students and the objective of the school is to provide education in an environment which promotes certain religious values, it admits persons of a particular religious denomination in preference to others or it refuses to admit as a student a person who is not of that denomination and, in the case of a refusal, it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school."
A similar provision is outlined in the guidelines for the board of management of national schools i.e.

You were saying?

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:03PM

prinz wrote: »

Not necessarily. If you investigate somewhere like Germany, where state schools and schools run by religious are completely different you would see that "Christian" run schools have waiting lists, fare better on comparative studies, have students that perform better than those in State run schools, etc etc.

Link?

All that shows anyway is that the state need to run their schools better. Could be an issue anywhere, regardless of religious influence.

By all means have 'state schools' and 'church' run schools but be prepared for the outcome as someone said already a "third tier". All the people who were so vocal for the church role to be removed will be the very ones joining a waiting list to get little Mary or John into the church run school a few years later.

First of all, I don't even think there should be BOTH. I think there should be only state run schools. Second of all, if there were both, I don't care in the slightest that there's a big waiting list for church-run schools.

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 06:05PM

Antbert wrote: »

Link?

All that shows anyway is that the state need to run their schools better. Could be an issue anywhere, regardless of religious influence..

Doesn't the tax payer in Germany fund religious schools? Also, as Antbert says all that shows is that state schools are poorly funded, perhaps an argument to remove state funding of religious schools and focus solely on state schools.:D

prinz · 29-01-2010 06:11PM

Antbert wrote: »

All that shows anyway is that the state need to run their schools better. Could be an issue anywhere, regardless of religious influence..

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,438790,00.html

http://www.focus.de/schule/schule/schulwahl/schulserie/konfessionelle-schulen/konfessionelle-vs-staatliche-schulen_aid_24604.html

But according to you removing any Church role from a school could only make for an improvement

Suddenly Church schools are being preferred... I wonder why... surely not because they are worse?

Antbert wrote: »

First of all, I don't even think there should be BOTH. I think there should be only state run schools.

Freedom of choice....lovely.

Antbert wrote: »

Second of all, if there were both, I don't care in the slightest that there's a big waiting list for church-run schools.

So you are taking a crusade to save people from themselves is it?

justaday · 29-01-2010 06:13PM

religion in ireland is coming to an end, a bit later than other european countries but slowly but surely its influence has gone. its a natural progression. the old phobies incharge of schools and stuff are religious but the new generation are not religious at all. i have loads of teachers in my school who are atheist and nearly everyone in my third year class is atheist(we did a poll)

my school appears catholic but in reality is not a catholic school at all.

Overheal · 29-01-2010 06:13PM

Antbert wrote: »

First of all, I don't even think there should be BOTH. I think there should be only state run schools. Second of all, if there were both, I don't care in the slightest that there's a big waiting list for church-run schools.

Ah now see even I disagree with that. Privately funded religious schools have operated in the United States for years without problem.

Should the taxpayer pay for them? Hell to the No. The only Grey Matter is what taxes need to be imposed on private religious schools.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:15PM

prinz wrote: »

But according to you removing any Church role from a school could only make for an improvement Suddenly Church schools are being preferred... I wonder why... surely not because they are worse?

See mine and Malty_T's reply.

Freedom of choice....lovely.

Well, I think here the problem lies in people not seeing the difference between "a religion" and "no religion". People imagine that sending children to a secular school means they're going to be taught atheism. But there's nothing to teach. To use a very commonly used analogy, it's like teaching children how to not collect stamps.

I don't think any children should be subject to any sort of religious influence in schools. If parents want to raise their children in their own religion then they have to do it in their own time. It has no relevance to learning actual facts about the world.

I have absolutely no opposite to religionS being taught from a historical and factual point of view.

And I'm not being petty but er... I don't speak German.

prinz · 29-01-2010 06:19PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Doesn't the tax payer in Germany fund religious schools? Also, as Antbert says all that shows is that state schools are poorly funded, perhaps an argument to remove state funding of religious schools and focus solely on state schools.:D

Short answer; no. The schools may get some subsidies based upon performance, but the religious schools are usually funded either (a) from the pool of "Church Tax", which people contribute to i.e. not everyone does or (b) contributions from parents.

Overheal · 29-01-2010 06:22PM

To use a very commonly used analogy, it's like teaching children how to not collect stamps.

I cant believe im going to say this but my 4th grade teacher did show us how to collect stamps.

Granted this took all of 20 minutes but it was fun nonetheless to submerge stamps in water then get them onto a collection sheet.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:24PM

Overheal wrote: »

I cant believe im going to say this but my 4th grade teacher did show us how to collect stamps.

Granted this took all of 20 minutes but it was fun nonetheless to submerge stamps in water then get them onto a collection sheet.

Ah but you see, she didn't teach you how not to collect stamps.

prinz · 29-01-2010 06:27PM

Antbert wrote: »

Well, I think here the problem lies in people not seeing the difference between "a religion" and "no religion". People imagine that sending children to a secular school means they're going to be taught atheism. But there's nothing to teach.

Slight difference between not being taught atheism, and not being taught major part of world history, current affairs, social studies, customs etc.

Antbert wrote: »

It has no relevance to learning actual facts about the world..

Just the majority of conflicts, national histories, historical figures etc. Yes a little knowledge about religion is of no relevance whatsoever to learning about the Middle East, the Crusades, Irish history etc etc.

Antbert wrote: »

And I'm not being petty but er... I don't speak German.

Well there are hardly going to be many articles in English on the Germans comparing schools.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:28PM

prinz wrote: »

Slight difference between not being taught atheism, and not being taught major part of world history, current affairs, social studies, customs etc.

Just the majority of conflicts, national histories, historical figures etc. Yes a little knowledge about religion is of no relevance whatsoever to learning about the Middle East, the Crusades, Irish history etc etc.

Well there are hardly going to be many articles in English on the Germans comparing schools.

?!

I said it should be taught from a historical and political point of view!

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 06:28PM

Prinz I think you are confusing teaching religion with preaching religion. It's the latter I have the problem with.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:29PM

Antbert wrote: »

I have absolutely no opposite to religionS being taught from a historical and factual point of view.

Here.

prinz · 29-01-2010 06:31PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Prinz I think you are confusing teaching religion with preaching religion. It's the latter I have the problem with.

Well then it gets into a very grey area does it not? Where do we draw the line?

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:32PM

prinz wrote: »

Well then it gets into a very grey area does it not? Where do we draw the line?

How is that a grey area?

'Catholocism teaches that homosexualism is a sin'
vs
'Homosexualism is a sin'

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 06:34PM

prinz wrote: »

Well then it gets into a very grey area does it not? Where do we draw the line?

?????
Presumably you were taught about Islam in your own school.

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2010 06:37PM

Antbert wrote: »

How is that a grey area?

'Catholocism teaches that homosexualism is a sin'
vs
'Homosexualism is a sin'

Because sin cannot exist if God doesn't exist. Therefore if the church is wrong in it's teachings that God doesn't exist then the of homosexuality isn't a sin.
Hence grey area.

Overheal · 29-01-2010 06:37PM

Antbert wrote: »

How is that a grey area?

'Catholocism teaches that homosexualism is a sin'
vs
'Homosexualism is a sin'

"And we are a Catholic School therefore we teach that Homosexuality is a sin"

Semantics are fun.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because sin cannot exist if God doesn't exist. Therefore if the church is wrong in it's teachings that God doesn't exist then the of homosexuality isn't a sin.
Hence grey area.

Alright so.

'Catholocism teaches us that Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'
vs
'Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'

'Catholocism teaches us that Jesus came back to life'
vs
'Jesus came back to life'

I'd love to throw in some Hindu and Islam ones but I don't know enough.

Overheal · 29-01-2010 06:47PM

Antbert wrote: »

Alright so.

'Catholocism teaches us that Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'
vs
'Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'

'Catholocism teaches us that Jesus came back to life'
vs
'Jesus came back to life'

I'd love to throw in some Hindu and Islam ones but I don't know enough.

You dont see a problem with that?

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2010 06:48PM

Antbert wrote: »

Alright so.

'Catholocism teaches us that Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'
vs
'Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus Christ'

Yep, if the church is wrong then Mary wasn't a virgin when she gave birth.

Antbert wrote: »

'Catholocism teaches us that Jesus came back to life'
vs
'Jesus came back to life'

I'd love to throw in some Hindu and Islam ones but I don't know enough.

And again if the Church is wrong then Jesus didn't come back to life.

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2010 06:49PM

Overheal wrote: »

You dont see a problem with that?

Yes, the font on the word "US" is out of sync with the rest of the text.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 06:50PM

Overheal wrote: »

You dont see a problem with that?

I see a problem in that I made a mistake when I typed it.

I mean to say "Catholocism teaches its followers".

Please accept this humble apology.

Biggins · 29-01-2010 06:50PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, the font on the word "US" is out of sync with the rest of the text.

:pac: ...I can't help but laugh.
Sorry.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Define "sin"?

My ex-wife.

Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

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