Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

Dave!

IT IS “blatantly unjust” and “a complete red herring” to say that the Catholic Church has no right to be involved in schools that receive State funding, Cardinal Seán Brady said yesterday, in a strong defence of the role of the church in education.

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

“Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools.

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

The presumption the Catholic Church wanted to control as many schools as it could, irrespective of parental demands, was increasingly seen to be unfounded, he added.

“Equally, the idea that the only way to accommodate religious and cultural diversity in society is to remove the church completely from State-funded schools is increasingly seen as unjust, unhelpful and contrary to the principle of pluralism.”

Cardinal Brady said a new maturity had entered the debate about education and the church, and this had cleared the way “for what could be the most creative and constructive dialogue about the future of education in this country since partition”.

The church was willing to be an enthusiastic and constructive partner if the debate was based on mutual respect and genuine concern for the rights of parents and children.

“If, on the other hand, the dialogue is simply a Trojan horse for removing faith from schools – whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim – then we are destined to remain locked in unnecessary tensions about the future of education, to the detriment of children and society.”

Cardinal Brady said the suggestion schools were unable to be overtly Catholic and accommodate a degree of religious, cultural or ethnic diversity was “unfair and not borne out by experience”. Nor should the church create an impression that no room existed for sharing with other religious and secular approaches, he added.

“We should not apologise for who we are. In an increasingly diverse culture the future lies in ensuring that our schools become more authentically Catholic, both in terms of the authentic Catholic doctrine they teach and the Christian environment which they create.”

Setting out possible guiding principles for agreement on the future of schooling, the cardinal suggested that the Catholic Church should not create the impression that no room existed for mutual collaboration with other religious and secular approaches; that parents had the right to have their children educated in accordance with their convictions; and that the Catholic Church was open to diversity of provision, but Catholic parents had to be treated on the same basis as others.

Cardinal Brady was speaking at the launch of the Catholic Schools Partnership in Dublin yesterday.

He said he was “surprised and saddened” at the results of the Irish Times Ipsos/MRBI poll, which found that 61 per cent of people believed the church should give up control of the school system. “But opinion polls change and it’s the task of people who believe in Catholic schools to proclaim their worth,” he said.

He also called for stronger systems of inspection and accountability by the State in applying best practice in safeguarding children at school.

Separately, head of Amnesty International Ireland Colm O’Gorman said yesterday the quality of a child’s education in Ireland was still directly related to the ability of their parents to provide financial support to the school system. He was addressing the annual conference of the Irish Primary Principals’ Network.

What do ye make of this? Douchebag?

Biggins

Irish times ran a poll yesterday morning: http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9207&subsiteid=356

Wazdakka

Last gasp whinging of an outdated, shamed, group of society.

No religious organisation should have ANY place in education.
Especially Christianity.

Religion should be a choice, not something to force on you while growing up.

I think they're worried because humankind is evolving beyond the need for blind faith.
They're influence and money are going to dry up.

Does nobody remember the dark ages??

We'd all be living in space, eating food in pill form, have solved the energy crisis and own hover boards by now if it wasn't for religious organisations interfering in the progression of the species.

I want a hoverboard Dammit!! :mad:

Nodin

The usual wanting to have the cake and eat it.

hooradiation

Wazdakka wrote: »

Does nobody remember the dark ages??

We'd all be living in space, eating food in pill form, have solved the energy crisis and own hover boards by now if it wasn't for religious organisations interfering in the progression of the species.

This is one of the most enduring myths about the 'dark ages'.

KungPao

Nodin wrote: »

The usual wanting to have the creampie and eat it.

The dirty divils.

Cookie_Monster

hooradiation wrote: »

This is one of the most enduring myths about the 'dark ages'.

Its really called that cos they had no lights

Dudess

Well of course he's going to say stuff like this - he's a cardinal, it's his place to say up with this sort of thing.

Alex_Jones

Wazdakka wrote: »

No religious organisation should have ANY place in education.

I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.

For someone who has no religion, that's a very principled stance you have there. :pac:

o1s1n

Alex_Jones wrote: »

I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.

For someone who has no religion, that's a very principled stance you have there. :pac:

9 posts to Godwin. Not bad.

CokaColumbo

Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
The worst that 30 minutes of Christian education a day can do is make children more altruistic in nature by believing in Jesus.

Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.
Further, the argument that the church doesn't have the right to instil Christian values such as love and respect in children is bogus because it is these same religious principals that most Irish people hold to be true.

Dudess

Alex_Jones wrote: »

I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.

Oh of course - that's the only possible alternative a person opposed to organised religion in the classroom could be looking for...

stovelid

He was misquoted.

He meant the right to get their hole in state schools.

o1s1n

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people. .

Perhaps you have it the wrong way around. Maybe part of the reason so many people blindly tick the 'catholic' box on the census forms is because of the Catholic churches influence from a young age in school.

Without that, I believe that number would be a lot lower.

CokaColumbo

o1s1n wrote: »

Perhaps you have it the wrong way around. Maybe part of the reason so many people blindly tick the 'catholic' box on the census forms is because of the Catholic churches influence from a young age in school.

Without that, I believe that number would be a lot lower.

Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

whatawaster

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
The worst that 30 minutes of Christian education a day can do is make children more altruistic in nature by believing in Jesus.

Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.
Further, the argument that the church doesn't have the right to instil Christian values such as love and respect in children is bogus because it is these same religious principals that most Irish people hold to be true.

The worst it can do is indoctrinate them into feeling part of an organisation that excels at putting down any people, groups or opinions different to their own.

If you sheltered every child from any religion until they were 18 and then sat them down and explained everything to them and let them make up their own mind - that would be fair. Indoctrination is not. It's downright evil.

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking the Catholic church is in any way about "love, kindness, honesty, respect" as you put it. While there are good people in the organisation, as a whole it's only concerned with self-preservation and power.

bonerm

We should probably hand over the schools to the multinational corporations like they do in America. That way kids can be rared with proper values i.e. to know which product to buy and which consumer lifestyle to follow. That's the only value most of them will ever be to society anyway.

Canis Lupus

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

Why is Ireland supposedly Catholic then and not muslim. Of course it has to do with what's instilled in you when a child.

You also have plenty of grown up stupidity. My sister got her children baptised and I asked do you believe in god and she said not really......

Dudess

This isn't an anti religion rant, as that would be just boring, but...

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

Would it not do so without religion?

Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.

Agreed the imparting of these values is a good thing, but again, can that not be done without the religious subcontext? These are not just christian values, they are universal ones.

Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.

As said, could be just the ticking of a box. I'm a Roman catholic as I was baptised as one, but that's as far as it goes.

whatawaster

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

Things you are taught as a kid have a huge influence in your adult life. Things that are drilled into you day after day, with the alternative being hell and suffering, tend to stick with a lot of people for a long time.

baalthor

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Stuff about majority being Catholic

The fact that a person is Catholic doesn't imply that they want a Catholic Church run school system.

o1s1n

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

Yes.

Not only Irish men and women, but the majority of people on the face of the earth.

The proof of this is the fact that you see millions of people living in the same country with the same religion. If the masses were all capable of independent thought when it came to religion, this wouldnt be the case.

For the majority of the populace of the world, your upbringing defines your religion. Only a small percentage of people truely break away from this.

A huge part of your up bringing is your education as a child.

Therefore - catholic education in school plays a massive role in which religion box people tick when they are older.

Biggins

Slightly off topic - but does anyone know when the next national census is next to be taken?

Alex_Jones

bonerm wrote: »

We should probably hand over the schools to the multinational corporations like they do in America. That way kids can be rared with proper values i.e. to know which product to buy and which consumer lifestyle to follow. That's the only value most of them will ever be to society anyway.

Yeah, like at Columbine High... Or that place in Finland that hit the headlines last year...

If the State can't even build an inter-city motorway network, what hope do parents have that they'll educate their children properly. I'd place my children in the care of priests and nuns any day of the week, than be relying on some transient gombeen like Batt O'Keefe to deliver. Employees of the State aren't bound by a Christian vocation. They just draw the salary and go home at 5 to watch TV.

Alex_Jones

Will there be a national school uniform in this Utopian State-run education system that's being proposed?

I'm thinking bonny caps and an armband with a harp on it. Compulsory marching too.



YOU WERE LATE THIS MORNING. REPORT TO MY OFFICE IMMEDIATELY.

o1s1n

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Yeah, like at Columbine High... Or that place in Finland that hit the headlines last year...

So any school that isn't run by the church is doomed to have massacres?

By the same logic, I could say any school that is run by the church is going to result in massive numbers of child sexual abuse.

(Actually, numbers prove that the second one is much more likely)

Alex_Jones wrote: »

I'd place my children in the care of priests and nuns any day of the week

You're a dying breed.

enda1

Biggins wrote: »

Slightly off topic - but does anyone know when the next national consensus is next to be taken?

http://www.cso.ie/census/Census_2011_Consultation.htm

Consensus was reached in 2009 on the questions too.

So A. Are you in any way Catholic (even just going to mass for Christmas/saying "For God's sake or ah Jasus!", is ok)?
or B. Are you a God hating pagan!?

Same as usual I guess.

Nodin

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Yeah, like at (.........)atch TV.

Isn't that the same crap you rolled out in Politics before your ear was clipped? Wasn't it deal with in full there?

Alex_Jones

o1s1n wrote: »

You're a dying breed.

You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.

o1s1n

Alex_Jones wrote: »

You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.

And putting your children in the hands of people associated with an organisation who in recent times has been in the middle of a massive child sexual abuse scandal is better?

Your trust far exceeds my own.

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/census/Census_2011_Consultation.htm

Cheers.
Judging by the numbers last time that put down "Jedi" as religion - can they now take over the schools and run them?
That would be class!

o1s1n

Biggins wrote: »

Cheers.
Judging by the numbers last time that put down "Jedi" as religion - can they now take over the schools and run them?
That would be class!

Only if P.E involves using light sabres

enda1

Alex_Jones wrote: »

You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.

You do realise that the teachers are state employees anyway, right?

Just usually that a church representative chairs the board of management. I went to a Catholic primary school and a Christian Brother secondary school where in both school there were no religious people employed. But the curriculum was highly tainted by religiousness, also ridiculous morning prayers and some teachers insisting on prayers before each class.

As a non Catholic I did not participate in the praying but of course did not make a big scene either as I was in a catholic school. But this pressure on kids needs to be removed, this pressure to conform to someone else's views and opinions.

Alex_Jones

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

If it means the State taking over all the crappy little schools in the back arse of nowhere (not to mention the ones in the housing estate wastelands of lower middle class suburbia), that's fine with me. So long as we get to keep the traditional educational power-houses that educate the men and women who'll go on to be the captains of industry and leaders of the political world. :pac:

I'll have the popcorn out while I watch all the new-age sociologists experiment with their extreme left-wing ideologies and secular indoctrination techniques. It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, these ideals trump individual afflictions of stupid people who insist that a Government with socialist tendencies is going to educate their children properly.

Dudess

Alex_Jones wrote: »

A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

That I agree with (disappointing and all that it must be for you that someone is agreeing with you).

Canis Lupus

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

If it means the State taking over all the crappy little schools in the back arse of nowhere (not to mention the ones in the housing estate wastelands of lower middle class suburbia), that's fine with me. So long as we get to keep the traditional educational power-houses that educate the men and women who'll go on to be the captains of industry and leaders of the political world. :pac:

I'll have the popcorn out while I watch all the new-age sociologists experiment with their extreme left-wing ideologies and secular indoctrination techniques. It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, these ideals trump individual afflictions of stupid people who insist that a Government with socialist tendencies is going to educate their children properly.

What?

enda1

Dudess wrote: »

That I agree with (disappointing and all that it must be for you that someone is agreeing with you).

Ah now, surely just a maiming would suffice?
And a bit of "tut-tut"ing and "you should have known better"!

TheZohanS

Alex_Jones wrote: »

I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis.

They lost in the end, just like you.

Banned.

Biggins

TheZohan wrote: »

They lost in the end, just like you.
Banned.

How many times is that now he's tried to stir things and got banned!
Someone lock the doors full time.

TheZohanS

Biggins wrote: »

How many times is that now he's tried to stir things and got banned!
Someone lock the doors full time.

Would have banned him after his first post only I'd get given out to for being ban happy...:(

Not allowed to use our precog powers.

Biggins

TheZohan wrote: »

Not allowed to use our precog powers.

Aaa... another Jedi!
May the farce be with you.

Son Of A Vidic

Religion and Education should not mix, religion class is one thing but having a school dominated or controlled by a religious group should not be allowed.
Especially in the light of what we all now know.

Sleepy

I love the sense of entitlement that has him thinking it's their "right" to have a say in anything beyond that afforded to members of the organisation with their individual votes.

Arrogant, delusional twat.

oppenheimer1

I honestly can't understand why some people here are really that keen to change a system that works. I mean if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is pretty fair at the moment, although I would like to see fee schools abolished. The education system in this country is one of the few things we have to be really proud of. We have high progression to third level, subtle changes to management could endanger that.

Realistically the Catholic church are not going to give up all the schools under their supervision. So the most plausible scenario is that we will be left with a system of public schools, free church schools, and fee paying private schools. So opposed to making education fairer, we will introduce a third tier. What will happen is the poorer will end up being sent to the public schools, the bright and the middle classes will go to the old catholic schools, and the rich will go to private. I wouldn't view that as progress tbh. Parents will compete to send their students to the better schools, thus the entrance exam will be seen as the first big test with more unnecesary pressure being placed on young people. (The traditional denominated school will be seen as the best, based on the experiences of other countries). We will be returning to the good old days of the primary cert or the 11+:rolleyes:

As for primary one only has to look to the UK to see what will happen. I know a person who now goes to mass every sunday just to ensure her children get a place in a denominated school. Its crazy but she wants to ensure the best education for her children. Its only familys that don't value educations as highly send their children to any school. What has ended up there is education stratified by social class. In certain parts its very pronounced.

Its not something I'd like to see in Ireland

Maruney

Alex_Jones wrote: »

It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, .

Your right, innocent children been left alone with these animals to be abused is horrible, the church has no place in education.
And children should have the freedom not to be forced into religion with baptism etc.

Glad you're coming round!

kraggy

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

If parents, whatever the religion, wish to have their children grow up in that religion, let them teach their children themselves.



“Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools."

Ok Cardinal, so you won't mind giving up control over a certain percentage of the schools currently in your power to accommodate the similar rights* of parents of other faiths to truly reflect the proportion of people following each religion in this country. That includes giving up some schools for the children of atheists because a lot of people in this country are either atheist or agnostic.

*similar rights here is a hypothetical proposition. In my view, no religion no matter what it advocates, has a place in state-funded education



“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said.

Again Cardinal, if you insist on religion playing a part in state-funded education, give up some of the schools you currently administrate to other religions to fairly reflect the demographics of Irish society today. Because, as you say yourself, "To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism".

But the above is purely academic (no pun intended). The fundamental point is: religion should be kicked out of all state-funded schools TODAY.

Sleepy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I honestly can't understand why some people here are really that keen to change a system that works. I mean if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is pretty fair at the moment, although I would like to see fee schools abolished. The education system in this country is one of the few things we have to be really proud of. We have high progression to third level, subtle changes to management could endanger that.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is an overly simplistic view of a system. Any system has to continuously improve or it falls into obselesence. Our system is nowhere near as good as you think it is. I agree with you regarding Fee paying schools but I'd take it further and insist on all schools being entirely government owned and run.

Realistically the Catholic church are not going to give up all the schools under their supervision. So the most plausible scenario is that we will be left with a system of public schools, free church schools, and fee paying private schools. So opposed to making education fairer, we will introduce a third tier. What will happen is the poorer will end up being sent to the public schools, the bright and the middle classes will go to the old catholic schools, and the rich will go to private. I wouldn't view that as progress tbh. Parents will compete to send their students to the better schools, thus the entrance exam will be seen as the first big test with more unnecesary pressure being placed on young people. (The traditional denominated school will be seen as the best, based on the experiences of other countries). We will be returning to the good old days of the primary cert or the 11+:rolleyes:

If the government refuse to fund the catholic schools what else are they going to do with the buildings? If they won't hand them over as payment for their rape of children and systematic cover up of same, I'm sure a tax on such buildings being unused could be imposed easily enough during budget 2011 in order to force their hand.

As for primary one only has to look to the UK to see what will happen. I know a person who now goes to mass every sunday just to ensure her children get a place in a denominated school. Its crazy but she wants to ensure the best education for her children. Its only familys that don't value educations as highly send their children to any school. What has ended up there is education stratified by social class. In certain parts its very pronounced.

Its not something I'd like to see in Ireland

If we ban religious involvement in education, this rules out the possibility of that scenario coming to pass.

We need a single tier, publicly funded, high quality education system. The Catholic Church currently stands as an obstacle to that so they should be forced out of the way.

Galvasean

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

So that will leave how many Catholics in the country, six, seven?

Turtwig

Galvasean wrote: »

So that will leave how many Catholics in the country, six, seven?

One.

CokaColumbo

Dudess wrote: »

Would it not do so without religion?

Well, the church ran hospitals more efficiently and more cheaply than the HSE does now so yes, perhaps it is because of the church that we have such an excellent primary education system.

Dudess wrote: »

Agreed the imparting of these values is a good thing, but again, can that not be done without the religious subcontext? These are not just christian values, they are universal ones.
As said, could be just the ticking of a box. I'm a Roman catholic as I was baptised as one, but that's as far as it goes.

I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I know that the religious education which was taught to me with which I was maliciously indoctrinated (not by a priest but by my teacher) was a wholly positive thing.

Although children could be indoctrinated with the same principals minus the loving Jesus part (which is what most posters on this thread want), I for one can say that the influence of the church on my education was in no way negative or malicious. It has shaped me into who I am now and I'm glad it has.

I, like the majority of Irish people, believe in a Christian God, whatever the reason may be, and we believe that God stands for altruism and social justice. No self identifying Christian could possibly be against their own values being instilled in their children. If Christianity was the reserve of a minority I would not be in favour of its presence in the school curriculum, but it isn't.

Note: I only left primary school about 6/7 years ago so things may have been different for me than they were for somebody who left 20 years ago.

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Turtwig

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Is most certainly broke! Catholicism isn't the only religious denomination attending public schools. Yet to be enrolled in many schools in this country many non Catholics have no choice but to baptise their children. To many atheists this is only a slight inconvenience, to many other athiests it goes against their principles. It definitely goes against the principles of members of other faiths. Not only that but it's wholly stupid anyway.