Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

o1s1n · 29-01-2010 01:46PM

Biggins wrote: »

Cheers.
Judging by the numbers last time that put down "Jedi" as religion - can they now take over the schools and run them?
That would be class!

Only if P.E involves using light sabres

enda1 · 29-01-2010 01:47PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.

You do realise that the teachers are state employees anyway, right?

Just usually that a church representative chairs the board of management. I went to a Catholic primary school and a Christian Brother secondary school where in both school there were no religious people employed. But the curriculum was highly tainted by religiousness, also ridiculous morning prayers and some teachers insisting on prayers before each class.

As a non Catholic I did not participate in the praying but of course did not make a big scene either as I was in a catholic school. But this pressure on kids needs to be removed, this pressure to conform to someone else's views and opinions.

Alex_Jones · 29-01-2010 01:49PM

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

If it means the State taking over all the crappy little schools in the back arse of nowhere (not to mention the ones in the housing estate wastelands of lower middle class suburbia), that's fine with me. So long as we get to keep the traditional educational power-houses that educate the men and women who'll go on to be the captains of industry and leaders of the political world. :pac:

I'll have the popcorn out while I watch all the new-age sociologists experiment with their extreme left-wing ideologies and secular indoctrination techniques. It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, these ideals trump individual afflictions of stupid people who insist that a Government with socialist tendencies is going to educate their children properly.

Dudess · 29-01-2010 01:53PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

That I agree with (disappointing and all that it must be for you that someone is agreeing with you).

Canis Lupus · 29-01-2010 01:53PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

If it means the State taking over all the crappy little schools in the back arse of nowhere (not to mention the ones in the housing estate wastelands of lower middle class suburbia), that's fine with me. So long as we get to keep the traditional educational power-houses that educate the men and women who'll go on to be the captains of industry and leaders of the political world. :pac:

I'll have the popcorn out while I watch all the new-age sociologists experiment with their extreme left-wing ideologies and secular indoctrination techniques. It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, these ideals trump individual afflictions of stupid people who insist that a Government with socialist tendencies is going to educate their children properly.

What?

enda1 · 29-01-2010 01:55PM

Dudess wrote: »

That I agree with (disappointing and all that it must be for you that someone is agreeing with you).

Ah now, surely just a maiming would suffice?
And a bit of "tut-tut"ing and "you should have known better"!

TheZohanS · 29-01-2010 02:01PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis.

They lost in the end, just like you.

Banned.

Biggins · 29-01-2010 02:04PM

TheZohan wrote: »

They lost in the end, just like you.
Banned.

How many times is that now he's tried to stir things and got banned!
Someone lock the doors full time.

TheZohanS · 29-01-2010 02:36PM

Biggins wrote: »

How many times is that now he's tried to stir things and got banned!
Someone lock the doors full time.

Would have banned him after his first post only I'd get given out to for being ban happy...:(

Not allowed to use our precog powers.

Biggins · 29-01-2010 02:39PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Not allowed to use our precog powers.

Aaa... another Jedi!
May the farce be with you.

Son Of A Vidic · 29-01-2010 02:46PM

Religion and Education should not mix, religion class is one thing but having a school dominated or controlled by a religious group should not be allowed.
Especially in the light of what we all now know.

Sleepy · 29-01-2010 03:09PM

I love the sense of entitlement that has him thinking it's their "right" to have a say in anything beyond that afforded to members of the organisation with their individual votes.

Arrogant, delusional twat.

oppenheimer1 · 29-01-2010 03:23PM

I honestly can't understand why some people here are really that keen to change a system that works. I mean if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is pretty fair at the moment, although I would like to see fee schools abolished. The education system in this country is one of the few things we have to be really proud of. We have high progression to third level, subtle changes to management could endanger that.

Realistically the Catholic church are not going to give up all the schools under their supervision. So the most plausible scenario is that we will be left with a system of public schools, free church schools, and fee paying private schools. So opposed to making education fairer, we will introduce a third tier. What will happen is the poorer will end up being sent to the public schools, the bright and the middle classes will go to the old catholic schools, and the rich will go to private. I wouldn't view that as progress tbh. Parents will compete to send their students to the better schools, thus the entrance exam will be seen as the first big test with more unnecesary pressure being placed on young people. (The traditional denominated school will be seen as the best, based on the experiences of other countries). We will be returning to the good old days of the primary cert or the 11+:rolleyes:

As for primary one only has to look to the UK to see what will happen. I know a person who now goes to mass every sunday just to ensure her children get a place in a denominated school. Its crazy but she wants to ensure the best education for her children. Its only familys that don't value educations as highly send their children to any school. What has ended up there is education stratified by social class. In certain parts its very pronounced.

Its not something I'd like to see in Ireland

Maruney · 29-01-2010 03:29PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

It's the innocent children I feel sorry for in all this. But as a citizen of this State and a someone who respects personal freedom, .

Your right, innocent children been left alone with these animals to be abused is horrible, the church has no place in education.
And children should have the freedom not to be forced into religion with baptism etc.

Glad you're coming round!

kraggy · 29-01-2010 03:36PM

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

If parents, whatever the religion, wish to have their children grow up in that religion, let them teach their children themselves.

“Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools."

Ok Cardinal, so you won't mind giving up control over a certain percentage of the schools currently in your power to accommodate the similar rights* of parents of other faiths to truly reflect the proportion of people following each religion in this country. That includes giving up some schools for the children of atheists because a lot of people in this country are either atheist or agnostic.

*similar rights here is a hypothetical proposition. In my view, no religion no matter what it advocates, has a place in state-funded education

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said.

Again Cardinal, if you insist on religion playing a part in state-funded education, give up some of the schools you currently administrate to other religions to fairly reflect the demographics of Irish society today. Because, as you say yourself, "To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism".

But the above is purely academic (no pun intended). The fundamental point is: religion should be kicked out of all state-funded schools TODAY.

Sleepy · 29-01-2010 03:40PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I honestly can't understand why some people here are really that keen to change a system that works. I mean if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is pretty fair at the moment, although I would like to see fee schools abolished. The education system in this country is one of the few things we have to be really proud of. We have high progression to third level, subtle changes to management could endanger that.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is an overly simplistic view of a system. Any system has to continuously improve or it falls into obselesence. Our system is nowhere near as good as you think it is. I agree with you regarding Fee paying schools but I'd take it further and insist on all schools being entirely government owned and run.

Realistically the Catholic church are not going to give up all the schools under their supervision. So the most plausible scenario is that we will be left with a system of public schools, free church schools, and fee paying private schools. So opposed to making education fairer, we will introduce a third tier. What will happen is the poorer will end up being sent to the public schools, the bright and the middle classes will go to the old catholic schools, and the rich will go to private. I wouldn't view that as progress tbh. Parents will compete to send their students to the better schools, thus the entrance exam will be seen as the first big test with more unnecesary pressure being placed on young people. (The traditional denominated school will be seen as the best, based on the experiences of other countries). We will be returning to the good old days of the primary cert or the 11+:rolleyes:

If the government refuse to fund the catholic schools what else are they going to do with the buildings? If they won't hand them over as payment for their rape of children and systematic cover up of same, I'm sure a tax on such buildings being unused could be imposed easily enough during budget 2011 in order to force their hand.

As for primary one only has to look to the UK to see what will happen. I know a person who now goes to mass every sunday just to ensure her children get a place in a denominated school. Its crazy but she wants to ensure the best education for her children. Its only familys that don't value educations as highly send their children to any school. What has ended up there is education stratified by social class. In certain parts its very pronounced.

Its not something I'd like to see in Ireland

If we ban religious involvement in education, this rules out the possibility of that scenario coming to pass.

We need a single tier, publicly funded, high quality education system. The Catholic Church currently stands as an obstacle to that so they should be forced out of the way.

Galvasean · 29-01-2010 03:42PM

Alex_Jones wrote: »

Fair play to the Cardinal. It's time the Irish clergy adopted a no-nonsense approach and became a smaller, truer and more agile organisation. A culling of the a la Carte Catholics is what's required.

So that will leave how many Catholics in the country, six, seven?

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 03:47PM

Galvasean wrote: »

So that will leave how many Catholics in the country, six, seven?

One.

CokaColumbo · 29-01-2010 04:15PM

Dudess wrote: »

Would it not do so without religion?

Well, the church ran hospitals more efficiently and more cheaply than the HSE does now so yes, perhaps it is because of the church that we have such an excellent primary education system.

Dudess wrote: »

Agreed the imparting of these values is a good thing, but again, can that not be done without the religious subcontext? These are not just christian values, they are universal ones.
As said, could be just the ticking of a box. I'm a Roman catholic as I was baptised as one, but that's as far as it goes.

I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I know that the religious education which was taught to me with which I was maliciously indoctrinated (not by a priest but by my teacher) was a wholly positive thing.

Although children could be indoctrinated with the same principals minus the loving Jesus part (which is what most posters on this thread want), I for one can say that the influence of the church on my education was in no way negative or malicious. It has shaped me into who I am now and I'm glad it has.

I, like the majority of Irish people, believe in a Christian God, whatever the reason may be, and we believe that God stands for altruism and social justice. No self identifying Christian could possibly be against their own values being instilled in their children. If Christianity was the reserve of a minority I would not be in favour of its presence in the school curriculum, but it isn't.

Note: I only left primary school about 6/7 years ago so things may have been different for me than they were for somebody who left 20 years ago.

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 04:20PM

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Is most certainly broke! Catholicism isn't the only religious denomination attending public schools. Yet to be enrolled in many schools in this country many non Catholics have no choice but to baptise their children. To many atheists this is only a slight inconvenience, to many other athiests it goes against their principles. It definitely goes against the principles of members of other faiths. Not only that but it's wholly stupid anyway.

CerebralCortex · 29-01-2010 04:28PM

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Well, the church ran hospitals more efficiently and more cheaply than the HSE does now so yes, perhaps.

Ah ya you had to put up with religious iconography. Not cool!

CokaColumbo wrote: »

I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I know that the religious education which was taught to me with which I was maliciously indoctrinated (not by a priest but by my teacher) was a wholly positive thing.

I can see how "believe in me or face eternal suffering" is "wholly positive".

CokaColumbo wrote: »

....I for one can say that the influence of the church on my education was in no way negative or malicious. It has shaped me into who I am now and I'm glad it has.

What their cheerleader?

CokaColumbo wrote: »

I, like the majority of Irish people, believe in a Christian God, whatever the reason may be, and we believe that God stands for altruism and social justice. No self identifying Christian could possibly be against their own values being instilled in their children. If Christianity was the reserve of a minority I would not be in favour of its presence in the school curriculum, but it isn't.

But we're not talking about just "Christianity" (btw I've met very few actual Christians by its definition) we're talking about the Roman Catholic Church which is only concerned with spreading it's meme by very effectively praying on the weakness of the human condition. Also just as an fyi altruism and social justice are emergent, evolved traits central to the survival of a human society. God is just an anthropomorphism of the ignorance or lack of awareness of that fact.

CokaColumbo wrote: »

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well it is so we have to I'm afraid.

Mike 1972 · 29-01-2010 04:28PM

CokaColumbo wrote: »

perhaps it is because of the church that we have such an excellent primary education system.

??????????

Crann na Beatha · 29-01-2010 04:35PM

This post has been deleted.

Elliemental · 29-01-2010 04:40PM

Dave! wrote: »

What do ye make of this? Douchebag?

Well ofcourse, I would expect nothing less from a cardinal. However, what the church needs to understand is, that faith is a private matter. If parents want to indoctrinate their children in the ways of the ancient superstitions, they can no longer expect the state (ie taxpayer) to foot the bill for it. They will simply have to find other means. Also, the wishes of Atheist parents are completely over looked here. They too have a right to have thier children raised in accordance to thier wishes. Many parents (my own included), strongly object to the teaching of religious education in state schools.
This is not an attack on Church privileges, either. There are plenty of outlets for the ancient superstitions, thats what Sunday Schools are for.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 05:05PM

This is my favourite ridiculously ironic part:

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

Biggins · 29-01-2010 05:15PM

Antbert wrote: »

This is my favourite ridiculously ironic part:

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

Aye, funny that (not!) - especially when an non-Christian goes to apply for a school placement for their child but can't produce a catholic baptism cert. Good luck applying after that!
Talk about a contradiction! :mad:
...but then again its not the first I suspect.

Galvasean · 29-01-2010 05:22PM

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland

Surely I cant be the only one immature enough to think of this?

Turtwig · 29-01-2010 05:26PM

Galvasean wrote: »

Surely I cant be the only one immature to think of this?

Nah we prefer this one.
http://www.thesharkguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/ratzistarwars.jpg

prinz · 29-01-2010 05:39PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Is most certainly broke! Catholicism isn't the only religious denomination attending public schools. Yet to be enrolled in many schools in this country many non Catholics have no choice but to baptise their children.

Biggins wrote: »

Aye, funny that (not!) - especially when an non-Christian goes to apply for a school placement for their child but can't produce a catholic baptism cert. Good luck applying after that!
Talk about a contradiction!

May I ask what schools people are applying for? I went to a school ostensibly run by a Catholic religious order and never one was I/or my parents asked for a baptism cert Catholic or otherwise? Neither was I ever asked indicate my religous affiliation. Not only that by my year included Protestants and Muslims. The only religious instruction we got was half an hour a week in all the world's major religions. The two best teachers in the place were members of the religious order and neither were involved in teaching the religion class. It was an excellent school, and excellent because of the people who ran the school i.e. a Catholic order, however not once in 5 years was I or my class exposed to any sort of Catholic instruction, Christian bias etc.

Antbert · 29-01-2010 05:43PM

prinz wrote: »

May I ask what schools people are applying for? I went to a school ostensibly run by a Catholic religious order and never one was I/or my parents asked for a baptism cert Catholic or otherwise? Neither was I ever asked indicate my religous affiliation. Not only that by my year included Protestants and Muslims. The only religious instruction we got was half an hour a week in all the world's major religions. The two best teachers in the place were members of the religious order and neither were involved in teaching the religion class. It was an excellent school, and excellent because of the people who ran the school i.e. a Catholic order, however not once in 5 years was I or my class exposed to any sort of Catholic instruction, Christian bias etc.

Wow. Lucky you.

Sounds the absolute polar opposite to my primary school experience.

And if that is the case, handing the schools over to the state clearly either makes no difference, or makes a positive difference to the children, depending on the school.

Except it does still make a difference. Even if some schools are more relaxed about their indoctrination, having the schools run by the church stands as a really bad symbol for the country.

Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

Comments