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Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

  • 29-01-2010 10:52AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭


    IT IS “blatantly unjust” and “a complete red herring” to say that the Catholic Church has no right to be involved in schools that receive State funding, Cardinal Seán Brady said yesterday, in a strong defence of the role of the church in education.

    The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

    “Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools.

    “To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

    The presumption the Catholic Church wanted to control as many schools as it could, irrespective of parental demands, was increasingly seen to be unfounded, he added.

    “Equally, the idea that the only way to accommodate religious and cultural diversity in society is to remove the church completely from State-funded schools is increasingly seen as unjust, unhelpful and contrary to the principle of pluralism.”

    Cardinal Brady said a new maturity had entered the debate about education and the church, and this had cleared the way “for what could be the most creative and constructive dialogue about the future of education in this country since partition”.

    The church was willing to be an enthusiastic and constructive partner if the debate was based on mutual respect and genuine concern for the rights of parents and children.

    “If, on the other hand, the dialogue is simply a Trojan horse for removing faith from schools – whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim – then we are destined to remain locked in unnecessary tensions about the future of education, to the detriment of children and society.”

    Cardinal Brady said the suggestion schools were unable to be overtly Catholic and accommodate a degree of religious, cultural or ethnic diversity was “unfair and not borne out by experience”. Nor should the church create an impression that no room existed for sharing with other religious and secular approaches, he added.

    “We should not apologise for who we are. In an increasingly diverse culture the future lies in ensuring that our schools become more authentically Catholic, both in terms of the authentic Catholic doctrine they teach and the Christian environment which they create.”

    Setting out possible guiding principles for agreement on the future of schooling, the cardinal suggested that the Catholic Church should not create the impression that no room existed for mutual collaboration with other religious and secular approaches; that parents had the right to have their children educated in accordance with their convictions; and that the Catholic Church was open to diversity of provision, but Catholic parents had to be treated on the same basis as others.

    Cardinal Brady was speaking at the launch of the Catholic Schools Partnership in Dublin yesterday.

    He said he was “surprised and saddened” at the results of the Irish Times Ipsos/MRBI poll, which found that 61 per cent of people believed the church should give up control of the school system. “But opinion polls change and it’s the task of people who believe in Catholic schools to proclaim their worth,” he said.

    He also called for stronger systems of inspection and accountability by the State in applying best practice in safeguarding children at school.

    Separately, head of Amnesty International Ireland Colm O’Gorman said yesterday the quality of a child’s education in Ireland was still directly related to the ability of their parents to provide financial support to the school system. He was addressing the annual conference of the Irish Primary Principals’ Network.

    What do ye make of this? Douchebag?


«134

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭Wazdakka


    Last gasp whinging of an outdated, shamed, group of society.

    No religious organisation should have ANY place in education.
    Especially Christianity.

    Religion should be a choice, not something to force on you while growing up.

    I think they're worried because humankind is evolving beyond the need for blind faith.
    They're influence and money are going to dry up.

    Does nobody remember the dark ages??

    We'd all be living in space, eating food in pill form, have solved the energy crisis and own hover boards by now if it wasn't for religious organisations interfering in the progression of the species.

    I want a hoverboard Dammit!! :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The usual wanting to have the cake and eat it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Wazdakka wrote: »

    Does nobody remember the dark ages??

    We'd all be living in space, eating food in pill form, have solved the energy crisis and own hover boards by now if it wasn't for religious organisations interfering in the progression of the species.

    This is one of the most enduring myths about the 'dark ages'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭KungPao


    Nodin wrote: »
    The usual wanting to have the creampie and eat it.

    The dirty divils.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,755 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    This is one of the most enduring myths about the 'dark ages'.

    Its really called that cos they had no lights


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Well of course he's going to say stuff like this - he's a cardinal, it's his place to say up with this sort of thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Alex_Jones


    Wazdakka wrote: »
    No religious organisation should have ANY place in education.
    I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.

    For someone who has no religion, that's a very principled stance you have there. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.

    For someone who has no religion, that's a very principled stance you have there. :pac:

    9 posts to Godwin. Not bad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭CokaColumbo


    Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

    Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
    The worst that 30 minutes of Christian education a day can do is make children more altruistic in nature by believing in Jesus.

    Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
    Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.
    Further, the argument that the church doesn't have the right to instil Christian values such as love and respect in children is bogus because it is these same religious principals that most Irish people hold to be true.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    I know, let's have and education system like the Nazis. Comlete with morning exercises and a salut to Brian Cowen.
    Oh of course - that's the only possible alternative a person opposed to organised religion in the classroom could be looking for...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    He was misquoted.

    He meant the right to get their hole in state schools.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
    Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people. .

    Perhaps you have it the wrong way around. Maybe part of the reason so many people blindly tick the 'catholic' box on the census forms is because of the Catholic churches influence from a young age in school.

    Without that, I believe that number would be a lot lower.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 478 ✭✭CokaColumbo


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Perhaps you have it the wrong way around. Maybe part of the reason so many people blindly tick the 'catholic' box on the census forms is because of the Catholic churches influence from a young age in school.

    Without that, I believe that number would be a lot lower.

    Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.

    Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
    The worst that 30 minutes of Christian education a day can do is make children more altruistic in nature by believing in Jesus.

    Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
    Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.
    Further, the argument that the church doesn't have the right to instil Christian values such as love and respect in children is bogus because it is these same religious principals that most Irish people hold to be true.

    The worst it can do is indoctrinate them into feeling part of an organisation that excels at putting down any people, groups or opinions different to their own.

    If you sheltered every child from any religion until they were 18 and then sat them down and explained everything to them and let them make up their own mind - that would be fair. Indoctrination is not. It's downright evil.

    Let's not kid ourselves into thinking the Catholic church is in any way about "love, kindness, honesty, respect" as you put it. While there are good people in the organisation, as a whole it's only concerned with self-preservation and power.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,594 ✭✭✭bonerm


    We should probably hand over the schools to the multinational corporations like they do in America. That way kids can be rared with proper values i.e. to know which product to buy and which consumer lifestyle to follow. That's the only value most of them will ever be to society anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

    Why is Ireland supposedly Catholic then and not muslim. Of course it has to do with what's instilled in you when a child.

    You also have plenty of grown up stupidity. My sister got her children baptised and I asked do you believe in god and she said not really......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    This isn't an anti religion rant, as that would be just boring, but...
    Firstly, our primary education system, as a whole, is one of the best of its kind; it provides children with a very high standard of education. It works in what it is designed to do.
    Would it not do so without religion?
    Secondly, Christian influence in our school system instils, in children, values which most people, regardless of religious substance, strive for: love, kindness, honesty, respect etc.
    Agreed the imparting of these values is a good thing, but again, can that not be done without the religious subcontext? These are not just christian values, they are universal ones.
    Thirdly, according to the 2006 CSO records (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm), out of 3,706,683 Irish people, 3,409,381 of them are identified as Catholics.
    Based on this, it is clear that the influence of the Church in the primary education system is reflective of the religion of most Irish people.
    As said, could be just the ticking of a box. I'm a Roman catholic as I was baptised as one, but that's as far as it goes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

    Things you are taught as a kid have a huge influence in your adult life. Things that are drilled into you day after day, with the alternative being hell and suffering, tend to stick with a lot of people for a long time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭baalthor


    Stuff about majority being Catholic
    The fact that a person is Catholic doesn't imply that they want a Catholic Church run school system.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Are you saying that people cannot decide, as they become adults, whether or not they agree or disagree with things they were taught in school; that so many Irish men and Irish women are incapable of independent reason?

    Yes.

    Not only Irish men and women, but the majority of people on the face of the earth.

    The proof of this is the fact that you see millions of people living in the same country with the same religion. If the masses were all capable of independent thought when it came to religion, this wouldnt be the case.

    For the majority of the populace of the world, your upbringing defines your religion. Only a small percentage of people truely break away from this.

    A huge part of your up bringing is your education as a child.

    Therefore - catholic education in school plays a massive role in which religion box people tick when they are older.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Slightly off topic - but does anyone know when the next national census is next to be taken?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Alex_Jones


    bonerm wrote: »
    We should probably hand over the schools to the multinational corporations like they do in America. That way kids can be rared with proper values i.e. to know which product to buy and which consumer lifestyle to follow. That's the only value most of them will ever be to society anyway.

    Yeah, like at Columbine High... Or that place in Finland that hit the headlines last year...

    If the State can't even build an inter-city motorway network, what hope do parents have that they'll educate their children properly. I'd place my children in the care of priests and nuns any day of the week, than be relying on some transient gombeen like Batt O'Keefe to deliver. Employees of the State aren't bound by a Christian vocation. They just draw the salary and go home at 5 to watch TV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Alex_Jones


    Will there be a national school uniform in this Utopian State-run education system that's being proposed?

    I'm thinking bonny caps and an armband with a harp on it. Compulsory marching too.

    bb.jpg

    YOU WERE LATE THIS MORNING. REPORT TO MY OFFICE IMMEDIATELY.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    Yeah, like at Columbine High... Or that place in Finland that hit the headlines last year...

    So any school that isn't run by the church is doomed to have massacres?

    By the same logic, I could say any school that is run by the church is going to result in massive numbers of child sexual abuse.

    (Actually, numbers prove that the second one is much more likely)
    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    I'd place my children in the care of priests and nuns any day of the week

    You're a dying breed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭enda1


    Biggins wrote: »
    Slightly off topic - but does anyone know when the next national consensus is next to be taken?

    http://www.cso.ie/census/Census_2011_Consultation.htm

    Consensus was reached in 2009 on the questions too.

    So A. Are you in any way Catholic (even just going to mass for Christmas/saying "For God's sake or ah Jasus!", is ok)?
    or B. Are you a God hating pagan!?

    Same as usual I guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    Yeah, like at (.........)atch TV.

    Isn't that the same crap you rolled out in Politics before your ear was clipped? Wasn't it deal with in full there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Alex_Jones


    o1s1n wrote: »
    You're a dying breed.
    You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Alex_Jones wrote: »
    You'd prefer the State employee? You're a very trusting person.

    And putting your children in the hands of people associated with an organisation who in recent times has been in the middle of a massive child sexual abuse scandal is better?

    Your trust far exceeds my own.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    enda1 wrote: »

    Cheers.
    Judging by the numbers last time that put down "Jedi" as religion - can they now take over the schools and run them?
    That would be class! :D


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