Irish FTA DTT logo - "Saorview"

The Cush · 26-01-2010 12:18AM

Article from yesterday's Sunday Business Post on Saorview.

RTE plans for Saorview digital TV service

24 January 2010 By Samantha McCaughren

Plans for Ireland’s new digital television service, to be called Saorview, are moving ahead, with RTE appointing a company to test receivers for the new signal.

The state broadcaster is continuing with plans for its digital terrestrial television (DTT) service, even though the commercial side of the project has yet to be agreed. Saorview is likely to become a household name when the old analogue television signal - which is received via aerials - is switched off in 2012. Television viewers will then either switch to Saorview or sign up to an operator such as Sky or UPC for a paid for service.

Saorview will be a free public service giving viewers access to RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4 and several other channels.

However, the plan is that a commercial operator will also operate on DTT, so that customers can obtain paid-for extras, such as movie packages.

RTE last week appointed television services company Teracom to test receivers or decoders for compatibility with the Irish free-to-air signal. Receivers which pass the test by meeting the Irish DTT specifications will be eligible to be licensed to use RTE’s Saorview logo.

The Eircom-backed OneVision consortium was awarded the commercial DTT contract last May. While it has yet to sign up for the project, sources close to the process said significant progress was being made.

The major stumbling block is reaching agreement with RTE on transmission costs and guarantees.

RTE is spending €100 million on the DTT network and wants a commitment from the commercial partner.

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/rte-plans-for-saorview-digital-tv-service-46949.html#mon

marclt · 26-01-2010 11:31AM

The Cush wrote: »

Article from yesterday's Sunday Business Post on Saorview.

You gotta love the little line, that says the major stumbling block is agreeing costs with RTE! Err, I'm sure they'd have had some idea on costs beforehand... we all know the real facts...

Pay DTT doesn't work... !

If they had any sense they would try and corner the households with 2nd/3rd and 4th tv sets...

The Cush · 26-01-2010 03:56PM

From Broadband TV News today

RTE to control receivers for Saorview DTT
By Julian Clover
January 26, 2010 11.40 UK

RTE has appointed Sweden’s Teracom to test the receivers for its free-to-air DTT platform that has been named Saorview. Discussions with Teracom stretch back to the ill-fated bid by Boxer subsidiary Boxer to run the pay-TV multiplexes on the Irish DTT platform. Broadband TV News understands that RTE wanted to act as the gatekeeper for its FTA channels and joined the Scandinavian technical group NorDig.

RTE has subsequently become an active member of NorDig and will use the NorDig unified receiver specification for DVB-T, adding the MHEG-5 middleware that is also used in the UK. Using the NorDig specification should help to bring down the costs for receiver manufacturers while tapping into Teracom’s facility that already serves the Boxer affiliates in Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

Plans for Boxer to also use MHEG-5 itself have been put on ice following the withdrawal from the licensing process in April 2009.

Subsequently the Eircom-backed OneVision consortium was awarded the commercial DTT contract. The lack of movement has put back the official launch of DTT services, but these are now said to be making progress.

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/01/26/rte-to-control-receivers-for-saorview-dtt/

Nowso · 27-01-2010 02:48PM

Im getting it on 5 different frequencys ! Rubbish

Elmo · 27-01-2010 03:22PM

Nowso wrote: »

Im getting it on 5 different frequencys ! Rubbish

It has not be "launched" yet.

The Cush · 27-01-2010 04:46PM

Nowso wrote: »

Im getting it on 5 different frequencys ! Rubbish

You are receiving 5 channels on the current pre-launch DTT engineering test transmissions which are subject to interruption and even shutdown until the official launch. The 5 TV channels/4 radio channels are transmitted on one multiplex / frequency channel.

Saorview will be the name of the post launch FTA DTT service.

Digital Roll Out

RTÉNL is undertaking DTT technical test transmissions in a number of areas. This is being done to verify the engineering integrity of the systems and to confirm coverage.

These test transmissions will operate for varying durations and are subject to regular variations and prolonged interruptions. The test transmissions will cease in the majority of areas once testing is complete.

Permanent transmissions will not commence until the service is formally launched by the broadcasters.

Under no circumstances should the test transmissions be considered an operational service.

http://www.rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

muchos04 · 28-01-2010 01:13PM

I take it one the trials have completed there will be an unknown length of downtime. How long do you think?

Elmo · 28-01-2010 01:20PM

muchos04 wrote: »

I take it one the trials have completed there will be an unknown length of downtime. How long do you think?

Why?

The Cush · 28-01-2010 01:40PM

muchos04 wrote: »

I take it one the trials have completed there will be an unknown length of downtime. How long do you think?

Elmo wrote: »

Why?

RTÉNL have stated on their website - The test transmissions will cease in the majority of areas once testing is complete (see RTÉNL quote in my last post).

Don't think this will happen, although Mullaghanish has been down now since early Jan (ligtning & ice damage there I think). I think this is a safety net in case the process was to drag on indefinitely.

Apogee · 03-02-2010 10:24PM

Ryan leaves a hostage to fortune on Dáil record regarding ASO.

Eamon Ryan wrote:

I have already set deadlines. There is a deadline within the legislation we recently enacted for the switch on of a free-to-air digital service in December 2011. There is a deadline for us of 2012, which is when we will switch off our analogue system because the valuable spectrum we can then accrue for broadband and other purposes is of real importance to us. That is a certain deadline
[...]
The 2012 deadline is real and absolute. It also gives any party involved a clear deadline to be able to effectively set up whatever alternative service comes out of this process. We are clearly coming very close to the time lines where we have to act immediately. A deadline is set for 2012 which would require all parties involved to make their minds up and make their commercial decisions quickly. Come what may, that deadline will be met. We will switch off our analogue services and, despite the difficulties and the slowness of the process, I am still confident we will have an alternative digital service to offer the Irish public.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-01-26.39.0

The Cush · 05-02-2010 08:52AM

Looks like the British/Irish MoU and possible collapse of negotiations with OneVision are reasons RTÉ decided to go ahead with Saorview. Might not be good for the EasyTV group (RTÉ/UPC) either. As for Sky - who cares.

All not happy with a free digital Beeb
Fri, Feb 05, 2010

...

Good news for viewers, perhaps, but it caused quite a stir with pay TV operators NTL/ Chorus and Sky, who between them pay millions of euros each year to the BBC to carry their channels, which are hugely popular with Irish viewers.

They’re not impressed at the prospect of the Beeb being available for free on the public service DTT multiplex, a move that could potentially cost them subscribers.

This might also put the kibosh on the viability of a commercial DTT multiplex, which the Eircom-led OneVision consortium is trying to construct.

It would be hard for a commercial DTT operator to compete with a free-to-air DTT service that already offers RTÉ, TV3, TG4 and the BBC channels.

A source close to OneVision said this could potentially drive a “horse and coach” through its business plan.

Denis O’Brien has already walked away from DTT, handing back his licence last year.

Ryan’s deal might result in OneVision going the same way, not to mention some stiffly-worded correspondence from NTL/Chorus and Sky.

© 2010 The Irish Times

Elmo · 05-02-2010 11:28AM

The Cush wrote: »

Looks like the British/Irish MoU and possible collapse of negotiations with OneVision are reasons RTÉ decided to go ahead with Saorview. Might not be good for the EasyTV group (RTÉ/UPC) either. As for Sky - who cares.

It is called providing choice. This is the one thing that this agreement actually insists on. Cable and Satellite Pay TV providers providing actual choice or different services.

One Vision are possible better of going for a pay VoD system with pay live sports. Techincal question could 2 of the muxs be set up as VoD systems? Either that or HD services.

slegs · 05-02-2010 11:46AM

Elmo wrote: »

One Vision are possible better of going for a pay VoD system with pay live sports. Techincal question could 2 of the muxs be set up as VoD systems? Either that or HD services.

They would never make enough money to be viable. All these commerical setups need the basic monthly fee to keep them above water.

Elmo · 05-02-2010 11:54AM

slegs wrote: »

They would never make enough money to be viable. All these commerical setups need the basic monthly fee to keep them above water.

Meteor have done well concentrating on the Pay as You Go market. I know it is in telephony but I am just pointing out that companies can be creative in the way that the attract customers. As has been already pointed out by nearly all boardies One Vision was a failed option due to the high penetration of Sky and UPC in the market and the availability of FTA satellite. And One Visions lack of choice.

marclt · 05-02-2010 12:31PM

Elmo wrote: »

Meteor have done well concentrating on the Pay as You Go market. I know it is in telephony but I am just pointing out that companies can be creative in the way that the attract customers. As has been already pointed out by nearly all boardies One Vision was a failed option due to the high penetration of Sky and UPC in the market and the availability of FTA satellite. And One Visions lack of choice.

Creativity is going to win out. Perhaps shorter contracts for a start, a month by month approach? The BT Vision package seems to hold people, and of course offering people a subsidised PVR might nail it too.

Grabbing viewers from Sky and cable is going to be the key area. It is possible.

slegs · 05-02-2010 12:55PM

Elmo wrote: »

Meteor have done well concentrating on the Pay as You Go market. I know it is in telephony but I am just pointing out that companies can be creative in the way that the attract customers. As has been already pointed out by nearly all boardies One Vision was a failed option due to the high penetration of Sky and UPC in the market and the availability of FTA satellite. And One Visions lack of choice.

Pay as you go on mobile works because you dont get anything for free on mobile (no matter what the marketing says - I know I have worked in mobile for 10 years). If you are already giving someone 75% of what they want for free (via free TV) you will not make enough money out of the rest of your services to have a business to support the costs involved..

givecredit · 05-02-2010 01:05PM

slegs wrote: »

If you are already giving someone 75% of what they want for free (via free TV) you will not make enough money out of the rest of your services to have a business to support the costs involved..

But if you were to pick 10 people at random and ask them if they knew that you could get bbc/itv/ch4/ch5 etc free by satellite how many would actually know that?
If you were to offer those same people those same channels and a few more for Eur9.99 per month how many would be interested?(assuming you hadnt told them they were available free!)
How many of those 10 are paying Sky or NTL Eur 23-Eur30 per month to watch these channels?

marclt · 05-02-2010 01:20PM

givecredit wrote: »

But if you were to pick 10 people at random and ask them if they knew that you could get bbc/itv/ch4/ch5 etc free by satellite how many would actually know that?
If you were to offer those same people those same channels and a few more for Eur9.99 per month how many would be interested?(assuming you hadnt told them they were available free!)
How many of those 10 are paying Sky or NTL Eur 23-Eur30 per month to watch these channels?

Exactly, people just want convenience. Many don't understand the technology and are too embarrassed or simply not interested enough to ask.

One box, a low or no fee will have people very interested indeed.

slegs · 05-02-2010 01:34PM

Yes, people dont move to the Satellite FTA model is massive numbers because they dont know about it but mostly because its not an organised service. It all seems a bit too complicated for many regular folk until they see it in the flesh. They fear the hidden costs that Sky absorb in subsidies like set top box cost and installer fees etc. It is safer to stay with the solid good service Sky offer for many of them. Bit like moving bank...

Saorview will be an organised service with marketing and support information etc. Now if this organsied service offers enough free channels say RTE, TV3, TG4, BBC and amaybe 3e / UTV - then you have a product that is both free and has the support structure to make it appealing in mass market way. That could be radical in the Irish market and that is why Sky/NTL are now sitting up.

This is where Onevision and Boxer before them have a huge problem. What can you add to this basic but substantial free offering to make it appealing for the customer to actually pay over a monthly sub no matter what it is (€5, €10,€20). Sports channels? Dave/MTV and such like, Movies? To carry premium sports and movies cost money that has be recouped in subscription.

Once the customer has the basics of what he wants on his 7 day TV guide for free it is very difficult to get them to hand over subscription.

Where is Onevision's customer base then? PPV sounds nice but it is way too niche to be of interest in its own right. It just wouldnt make enough money for Onevision. Standalone monthly subscription movie / sports addon packs also sound like a possibility but how can Onevision be competitive on these alone without a full channel package - the wholesale costs from Sky will make sure that they cant make enough margin to make a big enough impact.

I said it since day 1.
- Pay DTT is doomed.
- The UK channels wont appear en mass on a DTT Freeview type model here.
- A combination of FTA DTT and Freesat/FTA Satellite is the only fully free TV model we will have and that has its limitations unless someone comes up with an integrated combo freesat solution

There is one other possibility to really shake up the market if we could get a competitor in the Pay satellite area who took a risk on subsidising RTE to go FTV on satellite to get people onto their competitor non Sky platform. That could be very interesting.

marclt · 05-02-2010 02:05PM

slegs wrote: »

Yes, people dont move to the Satellite FTA model is massive numbers because they dont know about it but mostly because its not an organised service. It all seems a bit too complicated for many regular folk until they see it in the flesh. They fear the hidden costs that Sky absorb in subsidies like set top box cost and installer fees etc. It is safer to stay with the solid good service Sky offer for many of them. Bit like moving bank...

yes, I know people who have a fta sat box, channels move frequency and the box doesn't update. They end up losing their favourites - and end up thinking it doesn't work.

slegs wrote: »

This is where Onevision and Boxer before them have a huge problem. What can you add to this basic but substantial free offering to make it appealing for the customer to actually pay over a monthly sub no matter what it is (€5, €10,€20). Sports channels? Dave/MTV and such like, Movies? To carry premium sports and movies cost money that has be recouped in subscription.

I do agree with that. But, maybe EasyTV has an advantage with RTE and UPC in the frame (if onevision gives up). UPC already have agreements with digital broadcasters... creating an Irish version of some of those channels with Irish advertising could persuade them to hop on board.

slegs wrote: »

Where is Onevision's customer base then? ... the wholesale costs from Sky will make sure that they cant make enough margin to make a big enough impact.

Any Pay DTT customer base would come from people selling it differently, offering a lower price. Creating the overall package. Irish DTT, its new - God, they could even make it SEXY! All your favourite Irish channels, with the best of your favourite UK channels... No spending money on things you don't need... Plus the addition of video on demand from the website, on your mobile etc etc... It needs to give something, a convenience not already available.

The convenience comes in from being able to choose and buy your box, and easy self-installation. For those who want more, insert a card, possibly Pay as you go or pay in advance, activate and watch away. No installer doing a bodge job, sticking a sat dish where you don't want it, no long term contracts, blah blah blah.

In other news, Sky may well have to drop it's wholesale costs if Ofcom says otherwise... Virgin or BT have claimed their costs are too high. It could become very interesting.

I'm not fully convinced about pay tv on dtt... but that was before when it was RTE for free and pay for everything else.

Elmo · 05-02-2010 04:23PM

marclt wrote: »

I do agree with that. But, maybe EasyTV has an advantage with RTE and UPC in the frame (if onevision gives up). UPC already have agreements with digital broadcasters... creating an Irish version of some of those channels with Irish advertising could persuade them to hop on board.

AHHHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHDHFAKLSDFASDJFKLAJSDFLKASDF;SDK;FJ

AND BREATH.

Why not allow new and existing Irish broadcasts to set up FTA* channels on DTT and rather than having advertising revenue disappear to different countries. So that RTÉ, TV3, TG4 and Setanta can have an opportunity to compete against bigger conglomerates like Viacom, ITV, C4, BBC Worldwide, Discovery, Sky, Virgin etc etc.

If we allow 50% of the ad revenue disappear into foreign hands we will have no money to produce TV in this country.

*That would also be available on UPC and Sky as must carries as the BAI can have cross broader co-operation with OfCom in relation to EPGs and they can also control Irish EPGs.

marclt · 05-02-2010 05:22PM

Elmo wrote: »

AHHHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHDHFAKLSDFASDJFKLAJSDFLKASDF;SDK;FJ AND BREATH.

Why not allow new and existing Irish broadcasts to set up FTA* channels on DTT and rather than having advertising revenue disappear to different countries. So that RTÉ, TV3, TG4 and Setanta can have an opportunity to compete against bigger conglomerates like Viacom, ITV, C4, BBC Worldwide, Discovery, Sky, Virgin etc etc. If we allow 50% of the ad revenue disappear into foreign hands we will have no money to produce TV in this country.

*That would also be available on UPC and Sky as must carries as the BAI can have cross broader co-operation with OfCom in relation to EPGs and they can also control Irish EPGs.

Set up the channels by all means... but where is the content coming from? Irish channels already import programmes, from the UK and elsewhere.

Even if they make interesting programmes, will they draw an audience... Look at the poorly produced stuff already on TV3... can you stomach any more of it? Xpose ... What a great programme that is. Ireland AM looks awful when compared to GMTV! It doesn't have to... it's the way it is created. The Afternoon Show on RTE has greater flow. But there are only so many types of programmes you can make...

Elmo · 05-02-2010 06:56PM

marclt wrote: »

Set up the channels by all means... but where is the content coming from? Irish channels already import programmes, from the UK and elsewhere.

Yeah but you can earn ad rev that can be put back in to programming with a proper regulatory system <sigh>. All of the companies I mentioned just take the money they earn out of the economy. At least with Irish companies earning some money they can keep it in the country for other uses.

E4 V 3E
BBC 3 V RTE 3
Five V a new Irish company

I think I know where I stand.

BoredNaMoaner · 11-02-2010 01:14PM

Any chance of getting the Saorview standard approval for a FreeSat combo box? That would be one hell of a product and would get Ireland out of the current DTT hell it had made for itself. Would there be any legitimate reason such a product would be unavailable to the consumer?

Elmo · 11-02-2010 01:29PM

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Any chance of getting the Saorview standard approval for a FreeSat combo box? That would be one hell of a product and would get Ireland out of the current DTT hell it had made for itself. Would there be any legitimate reason such a product would be unavailable to the consumer?

I am assuming that a DTT/Satellite combo box with MPEG 4 would work with Irish DTT.

slegs · 11-02-2010 01:47PM

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Any chance of getting the Saorview standard approval for a FreeSat combo box? That would be one hell of a product and would get Ireland out of the current DTT hell it had made for itself. Would there be any legitimate reason such a product would be unavailable to the consumer?

Technically none but as usual with these things its a little more complicated than that.

All current MPEG4 Combo DTT/Satellite FTA boxes are built to a generic European wide standard. The only significant thing they dont have to make them Saorview compliant is the MHEG5 middleware and profile for UK/Ireland (for digital teletext). As analogue teletext still works fine on these boxes this is not such a big deal.

There is also no technical reason why there couldnt be a dual compliant Saorview/Freesat combo with integrated 7 day EPG. This is less likely as the Freesat business model seems to be to control the EPG from the service for commerical reasons. They dont want a user managed EPG as can be seen from how they handle non-freesat satellite FTA channels.

Also the already existing Freesat compatible TVs already are capable of both Saorview/UK Freeview and Freesat but they do not combine the EPGs. Even though both are compatible in the one box it may as well be two separate Freesat and Saorview set top boxes with the way it is implemented (by design).

Sam Russell · 11-02-2010 02:02PM

Another problem with that is that Freesat is a UK only project, and so cannot be integrated with a 'foreign' system. Maybe some day, even if notionally for NI use.

BoredNaMoaner · 11-02-2010 02:07PM

So a combined MPEG4/FreeSat solution already exists, although the teletext is the old analogue style and the EPGs are not smoothly integrated. Sounds good to me, but that raises the question why is the Irish Government trying to force a DTT subscription service on the public that is certainly no improvement on this totally free service? Is it trying to corner the market on stupid subscribers? :rolleyes:

slegs · 11-02-2010 02:27PM

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

So a combined MPEG4/FreeSat solution already exists, although the teletext is the old analogue style and the EPGs are not smoothly integrated. Sounds good to me, but that raises the question why is the Irish Government trying to force a DTT subscription service on the public that is certainly no improvement on this totally free service? Is it trying to corner the market on stupid subscribers? :rolleyes:

It is combo DTT/Satellite FTA. Its not freesat. In a nutshell this means an integrated EPG with 7 day guide for DTT and now and next for satellite.

Lossy · 11-02-2010 02:46PM

slegs wrote: »

There is one other possibility to really shake up the market if we could get a competitor in the Pay satellite area who took a risk on subsidising RTE to go FTV on satellite to get people onto their competitor non Sky platform. That could be very interesting.

.....well if this is real and not a hoax....
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1194240

.....then maybe this could be a possibility......
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=37705588&postcount=21

Irish FTA DTT logo - "Saorview"

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