MRBI Poll suggests "Catholic Church should give up control of primary schools"

Dades · 25-01-2010 04:07PM #1

Given that the most frequent defense to the suggestion that the Church should step away from schools is that "most people still want them involved" - I think this deserves a new thread.

In short:

Irish Times wrote:

When asked about the issue, 61 per cent of people said the church should give up control of the school system, 28 per cent said it should maintain its position and 11 per cent had no opinion on the matter.

This is (to me) unexpected:

Irish Times wrote:

There were no great differences in terms of age. Over 65s were marginally more supportive of the church’s position, but the views of the 18-24 age group were almost identical.

Full Article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0125/1224263037668.html?via=rel

Related comment in IT:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0125/1224263035014.html

Dave! · 25-01-2010 07:12PM

Sweet :cool:

Ghost Buster · 25-01-2010 09:29PM

Brilliant and very welcome news. Any chance of a change before my 4 year old starts in sept;).
I could pray I 'spose:rolleyes:

Algernon · 25-01-2010 09:43PM

Finally, some sanity.

Daftendirekt · 25-01-2010 09:45PM

Is it really that surprising?

Particularly after the Ryan and Murphy reports...

Dades · 25-01-2010 09:53PM

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Is it really that surprising?

Particularly after the Ryan and Murphy reports...

Well it's surprising in that poll results have historically been the reverse. This seems like a big swing even with the help of the reports. Or maybe it's just that the previous polls were sponsored by the Iona Institute.

liamw · 25-01-2010 10:03PM

Although I'd like to think that the general population are thinking rationally about church/state seperation etc., I reckon this it mostly driven by the child abuse scandals. I'm cynical. But still, the result is good.

Daftendirekt · 25-01-2010 10:09PM

Dades wrote: »

Well it's surprising in that poll results have historically been the reverse. This seems like a big swing even with the help of the reports. Or maybe it's just that the previous polls were sponsored by the Iona Institute.

I suppose.

It's good news anyway. Time for the gov to start paying attention!

dvpower · 25-01-2010 11:20PM

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Time for the gov to start paying attention!

And the church, but that's not going so well

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 25-01-2010 11:21PM

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

Algernon · 25-01-2010 11:27PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

That would be a perfectly reasonable sample size. Why?

Galvasean · 25-01-2010 11:29PM

A thousand doesn't sound like a whole bunch. It is promising though. I would like to see a larger demograph though.

ChocolateSauce · 25-01-2010 11:29PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

1000 sampled at 100 polling stations around the country, usually a fair sample.

I for one am shocked, pleasantly for once.

Algernon · 26-01-2010 12:09AM

Galvasean wrote: »

A thousand doesn't sound like a whole bunch. It is promising though. I would like to see a larger demograph though.

No, it doesn't seem like much, but for survey research a sample as small as 300 can suffice, so long as it is well designed and carried out.

pH · 26-01-2010 12:33AM

Whilst the current government are still giving billions of euro worth of institutions to religious orders, it seems highly optimistic to think either the govt or the Catholic church would even contemplate giving any up.

The State is committed to building a single national children’s hospital. That hospital is to be part of the Mater Misericordiae complex in Dublin. Both the Mater and the national children’s hospital will therefore be under the control of the Sisters of Mercy. An absolute majority of the members of the private limited company that owns the Mater and the children’s hospital are members of the order. Both hospitals must be run “in accordance with the mission and traditions of the Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland”.

Just last week, we learned that the Department of Education has not responded after 15 months to a request by the parents’ group Educate Together to be recognised as a patron for second-level schools. We also heard Catholic bishops demanding that they be made co-patrons of new, non-Catholic State primary schools. The arrogant demand for control has not changed.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0526/1224247402157.html

Bduffman · 26-01-2010 10:17AM

For me the removal of religion from schools can't come quickly enough - particularly as my eldest is starting school in Sept.
We were only filling out his enrollment form last night & there was a section for what religion he is - as if a 4 year old has a religion. They might as well have a section for the childs star sign.

Turtwig · 26-01-2010 10:25AM

Bduffman wrote: »

They might as well have a section for the child's star sign.

Dades · 26-01-2010 10:53AM

pH wrote: »

Just last week, we learned that the Department of Education has not responded after 15 months to a request by the parents’ group Educate Together to be recognised as a patron for second-level schools. We also heard Catholic bishops demanding that they be made co-patrons of new, non-Catholic State primary schools. The arrogant demand for control has not changed.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0526/1224247402157.html

That article is from last May - I'd like to think the public's change in attitude means this type of bullsh*t won't be tolerated anymore.

hiorta · 26-01-2010 11:18AM

Aren't the parents able to have the religious element set aside for their child?
In Scotland RC controlled schools must accept local children, provided there's space, but all children can be opted out of religious indoctrination which is generally termed religious education.
This is probably an EU ruling.

Dades · 26-01-2010 11:38AM

hiorta wrote: »

Aren't the parents able to have the religious element set aside for their child?

Sure they can - the real problem is many feel they have to produce a baptismal cert to get them in to begin.

hiorta · 26-01-2010 03:28PM

That must surely contravene Human Rights Law, or Ireland does not have religious freedom?

Dades · 26-01-2010 04:37PM

hiorta wrote: »

That must surely contravene Human Rights Law, or Ireland does not have religious freedom?

Maybe and no, I would suggest.

Read this introduction to the Irish education system here.

Long story short:

Shadow Report by Educate Together wrote:

In 2000 the Equal Status Act granted schools with religious patronage exemptions to discriminate in favour of persons of their own religion in order to protect their ethos. This is allowed in the employment of staff, in the enrolment of children and in the selection of Board members. Given that 99% of schools are under religious patronage, the education system can be fairly described as discriminatory against persons of minority religions.

Antbert · 26-01-2010 05:03PM

This is excellent news.

There is one tiny thing that irritates me about it though... And it's kind of related to something I heard on the radio the other day (I don't even know what the show was because FM 104 goes out of range when I reach my house). Someone (I know, worst source ever) attributed growing violence in Dublin to a fall in respect for the Catholic Church due to the reports. They implied basically that lots of people are no longer religious, and as a result have no morals. So many things wrong with the statement.

Argh.

And this is a teeny little bit like that. No one ever bothers to question all of the important flaws in the system of having church-run schools. They just suddenly change their mind because of the child abuse scandal.

But that aside, if the upshot is that schools are handed over to the state I'm certainly not going to complain. Apart from this tiny rant.

dvpower · 26-01-2010 06:41PM

Antbert wrote: »

This is excellent news.

It is good news, but it is not likely to translate to much. The church is still very resistant to change in this area.

A meeting took place in mid-November between education officials and representatives of the hierarchy but, contrary to the department’s expectations, the bishops did not produce a list of schools where they would be willing to give up patronage.

Antbert · 26-01-2010 08:55PM

Why were the bishops asked to provide a list of schools? There's no reason they should have a say in the matter.

Sigh. Why do I even bother being indignant when I already know.

eblistic · 28-01-2010 12:06AM

Bduffman wrote: »

For me the removal of religion from schools can't come quickly enough

I do think it's worth educating children on religious beliefs and their role in society. Just as long as they're taught in a factual way. "Approximately x million people are claimed to hold these beliefs and this is what they are" kind of thing.

I don't think that you were really suggesting otherwise but anyway...

Bduffman · 28-01-2010 01:06PM

eblistic wrote: »

I do think it's worth educating children on religious beliefs and their role in society. Just as long as they're taught in a factual way. "Approximately x million people are claimed to hold these beliefs and this is what they are" kind of thing.

I don't think that you were really suggesting otherwise but anyway...

If we need to 'educate' children on religious beliefs then shouldn't we also educate them on other beliefs such as astrology, homeopathy, crystal healing etc? After all, approximately x million people claim to hold these beliefs.....

dvpower · 28-01-2010 01:37PM

Antbert wrote: »

Why were the bishops asked to provide a list of schools? There's no reason they should have a say in the matter.

Sigh. Why do I even bother being indignant when I already know.

Like it or not, the Church do have a big say in the matter. And they're already fighting back against the fiindings of the poll.
Browsing the Irish Times this morning there was an opinion piece by some catholic bishop, basically saying that the poll was contaminated because it used the word 'control' in the question, and that this word has negative connotations designed to produce a certain response.
There were two letters in the letters page on the topic, each from a catholic priest and each following a similar line.

Dades · 28-01-2010 01:55PM

dvpower wrote: »

basically saying that the poll was contaminated because it used the word 'control' in the question, and that this word has negative connotations designed to produce a certain response.

What exactly are they doing on school boards, if not "controlling" the enrollment and employment and "ethos" in schools?

*shakes fist at church*

hiorta · 28-01-2010 03:12PM

dvpower wrote: »

Like it or not, the Church do have a big say in the matter. And they're already fighting back against the fiindings of the poll.

It can be difficult to prise the debilitating tentacles from their prey and sustenance.
I remember the people were faced with a similar situation having drug-pushers in their communities. Officialdom were ineffective, but a way was devised to remove them - eviction.
Civilisation has it that no group can control without the consent of the majority of those 'ruled' and this point seems to have been reached.
Mental and physical harm from Church activities has no place in a civiised society.

eblistic · 29-01-2010 12:59AM

Bduffman wrote: »

If we need to 'educate' children on religious beliefs then shouldn't we also educate them on other beliefs such as astrology, homeopathy, crystal healing etc? After all, approximately x million people claim to hold these beliefs.....

It's not so much the numbers that might be important as the cultural impact. Unfortunately the influence of religious beliefs can't be completely avoided (especially in a country like this), so teaching kids why certain things are the way they are in society would be of some benefit, no?

MRBI Poll suggests "Catholic Church should give up control of primary schools"

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