MRBI Poll suggests "Catholic Church should give up control of primary schools"

Dades

Given that the most frequent defense to the suggestion that the Church should step away from schools is that "most people still want them involved" - I think this deserves a new thread.


In short:

Irish Times wrote:

When asked about the issue, 61 per cent of people said the church should give up control of the school system, 28 per cent said it should maintain its position and 11 per cent had no opinion on the matter.

This is (to me) unexpected:

Irish Times wrote:

There were no great differences in terms of age. Over 65s were marginally more supportive of the church’s position, but the views of the 18-24 age group were almost identical.

Full Article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0125/1224263037668.html?via=rel

Related comment in IT:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0125/1224263035014.html

Dave!

Sweet :cool:

Ghost Buster

Brilliant and very welcome news. Any chance of a change before my 4 year old starts in sept;).
I could pray I 'spose:rolleyes:

Algernon

Finally, some sanity.

Daftendirekt

Is it really that surprising?

Particularly after the Ryan and Murphy reports...

Dades

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Is it really that surprising?

Particularly after the Ryan and Murphy reports...

Well it's surprising in that poll results have historically been the reverse. This seems like a big swing even with the help of the reports. Or maybe it's just that the previous polls were sponsored by the Iona Institute.

liamw

Although I'd like to think that the general population are thinking rationally about church/state seperation etc., I reckon this it mostly driven by the child abuse scandals. I'm cynical. But still, the result is good.

Daftendirekt

Dades wrote: »

Well it's surprising in that poll results have historically been the reverse. This seems like a big swing even with the help of the reports. Or maybe it's just that the previous polls were sponsored by the Iona Institute.

I suppose.

It's good news anyway. Time for the gov to start paying attention!

dvpower

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Time for the gov to start paying attention!

And the church, but that's not going so well

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

Algernon

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

That would be a perfectly reasonable sample size. Why?

Galvasean

A thousand doesn't sound like a whole bunch. It is promising though. I would like to see a larger demograph though.

ChocolateSauce

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

didn't they only ask 1000 or so people in that survey?

1000 sampled at 100 polling stations around the country, usually a fair sample.


I for one am shocked, pleasantly for once.

Algernon

Galvasean wrote: »

A thousand doesn't sound like a whole bunch. It is promising though. I would like to see a larger demograph though.

No, it doesn't seem like much, but for survey research a sample as small as 300 can suffice, so long as it is well designed and carried out.

pH

Whilst the current government are still giving billions of euro worth of institutions to religious orders, it seems highly optimistic to think either the govt or the Catholic church would even contemplate giving any up.

The State is committed to building a single national children’s hospital. That hospital is to be part of the Mater Misericordiae complex in Dublin. Both the Mater and the national children’s hospital will therefore be under the control of the Sisters of Mercy. An absolute majority of the members of the private limited company that owns the Mater and the children’s hospital are members of the order. Both hospitals must be run “in accordance with the mission and traditions of the Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy in Ireland”.

Just last week, we learned that the Department of Education has not responded after 15 months to a request by the parents’ group Educate Together to be recognised as a patron for second-level schools. We also heard Catholic bishops demanding that they be made co-patrons of new, non-Catholic State primary schools. The arrogant demand for control has not changed.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0526/1224247402157.html

Bduffman

For me the removal of religion from schools can't come quickly enough - particularly as my eldest is starting school in Sept.
We were only filling out his enrollment form last night & there was a section for what religion he is - as if a 4 year old has a religion. They might as well have a section for the childs star sign.

Turtwig

Bduffman wrote: »

They might as well have a section for the child's star sign.

Dades

pH wrote: »

Just last week, we learned that the Department of Education has not responded after 15 months to a request by the parents’ group Educate Together to be recognised as a patron for second-level schools. We also heard Catholic bishops demanding that they be made co-patrons of new, non-Catholic State primary schools. The arrogant demand for control has not changed.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0526/1224247402157.html

That article is from last May - I'd like to think the public's change in attitude means this type of bullsh*t won't be tolerated anymore.

hiorta

Aren't the parents able to have the religious element set aside for their child?
In Scotland RC controlled schools must accept local children, provided there's space, but all children can be opted out of religious indoctrination which is generally termed religious education.
This is probably an EU ruling.

Dades

hiorta wrote: »

Aren't the parents able to have the religious element set aside for their child?

Sure they can - the real problem is many feel they have to produce a baptismal cert to get them in to begin.

hiorta

That must surely contravene Human Rights Law, or Ireland does not have religious freedom?

Dades

hiorta wrote: »

That must surely contravene Human Rights Law, or Ireland does not have religious freedom?

Maybe and no, I would suggest.

Read this introduction to the Irish education system here.

Long story short:

Shadow Report by Educate Together wrote:

In 2000 the Equal Status Act granted schools with religious patronage exemptions to discriminate in favour of persons of their own religion in order to protect their ethos. This is allowed in the employment of staff, in the enrolment of children and in the selection of Board members. Given that 99% of schools are under religious patronage, the education system can be fairly described as discriminatory against persons of minority religions.

Antbert

This is excellent news.

There is one tiny thing that irritates me about it though... And it's kind of related to something I heard on the radio the other day (I don't even know what the show was because FM 104 goes out of range when I reach my house). Someone (I know, worst source ever) attributed growing violence in Dublin to a fall in respect for the Catholic Church due to the reports. They implied basically that lots of people are no longer religious, and as a result have no morals. So many things wrong with the statement.

Argh.

And this is a teeny little bit like that. No one ever bothers to question all of the important flaws in the system of having church-run schools. They just suddenly change their mind because of the child abuse scandal.

But that aside, if the upshot is that schools are handed over to the state I'm certainly not going to complain. Apart from this tiny rant.

dvpower

Antbert wrote: »

This is excellent news.

It is good news, but it is not likely to translate to much. The church is still very resistant to change in this area.

A meeting took place in mid-November between education officials and representatives of the hierarchy but, contrary to the department’s expectations, the bishops did not produce a list of schools where they would be willing to give up patronage.

Antbert

Why were the bishops asked to provide a list of schools? There's no reason they should have a say in the matter.

Sigh. Why do I even bother being indignant when I already know.

eblistic

Bduffman wrote: »

For me the removal of religion from schools can't come quickly enough

I do think it's worth educating children on religious beliefs and their role in society. Just as long as they're taught in a factual way. "Approximately x million people are claimed to hold these beliefs and this is what they are" kind of thing.

I don't think that you were really suggesting otherwise but anyway...

Bduffman

eblistic wrote: »

I do think it's worth educating children on religious beliefs and their role in society. Just as long as they're taught in a factual way. "Approximately x million people are claimed to hold these beliefs and this is what they are" kind of thing.

I don't think that you were really suggesting otherwise but anyway...

If we need to 'educate' children on religious beliefs then shouldn't we also educate them on other beliefs such as astrology, homeopathy, crystal healing etc? After all, approximately x million people claim to hold these beliefs.....

dvpower

Antbert wrote: »

Why were the bishops asked to provide a list of schools? There's no reason they should have a say in the matter.

Sigh. Why do I even bother being indignant when I already know.

Like it or not, the Church do have a big say in the matter. And they're already fighting back against the fiindings of the poll.
Browsing the Irish Times this morning there was an opinion piece by some catholic bishop, basically saying that the poll was contaminated because it used the word 'control' in the question, and that this word has negative connotations designed to produce a certain response.
There were two letters in the letters page on the topic, each from a catholic priest and each following a similar line.

Dades

dvpower wrote: »

basically saying that the poll was contaminated because it used the word 'control' in the question, and that this word has negative connotations designed to produce a certain response.

What exactly are they doing on school boards, if not "controlling" the enrollment and employment and "ethos" in schools?

*shakes fist at church*

hiorta

dvpower wrote: »

Like it or not, the Church do have a big say in the matter. And they're already fighting back against the fiindings of the poll.

It can be difficult to prise the debilitating tentacles from their prey and sustenance.
I remember the people were faced with a similar situation having drug-pushers in their communities. Officialdom were ineffective, but a way was devised to remove them - eviction.
Civilisation has it that no group can control without the consent of the majority of those 'ruled' and this point seems to have been reached.
Mental and physical harm from Church activities has no place in a civiised society.

eblistic

Bduffman wrote: »

If we need to 'educate' children on religious beliefs then shouldn't we also educate them on other beliefs such as astrology, homeopathy, crystal healing etc? After all, approximately x million people claim to hold these beliefs.....

It's not so much the numbers that might be important as the cultural impact. Unfortunately the influence of religious beliefs can't be completely avoided (especially in a country like this), so teaching kids why certain things are the way they are in society would be of some benefit, no?

eblistic

Dades wrote: »

What exactly are they doing on school boards, if not "controlling" the enrollment and employment and "ethos" in schools?

*shakes fist at church*

That objection seems to be similar at the outrage they appear to display occasionally when accused of attempting to run sectarian schools. I never quite understood what the objection to the use of the term sectarian in that context was. The boards are allowed actively discriminate on religious grounds when employing staff and accepting enrollments... Seems pretty straightforward.

Bduffman

eblistic wrote: »

It's not so much the numbers that might be important as the cultural impact. Unfortunately the influence of religious beliefs can't be completely avoided (especially in a country like this), so teaching kids why certain things are the way they are in society would be of some benefit, no?

Maybe it could be covered in history class when schools become completely religion-free. :pac:

Dave!

Today:

Cardinal defends right of church to have role in State schools

IT IS “blatantly unjust” and “a complete red herring” to say that the Catholic Church has no right to be involved in schools that receive State funding, Cardinal Seán Brady said yesterday, in a strong defence of the role of the church in education.

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

“Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools.

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

The presumption the Catholic Church wanted to control as many schools as it could, irrespective of parental demands, was increasingly seen to be unfounded, he added.

“Equally, the idea that the only way to accommodate religious and cultural diversity in society is to remove the church completely from State-funded schools is increasingly seen as unjust, unhelpful and contrary to the principle of pluralism.”

Cardinal Brady said a new maturity had entered the debate about education and the church, and this had cleared the way “for what could be the most creative and constructive dialogue about the future of education in this country since partition”.

The church was willing to be an enthusiastic and constructive partner if the debate was based on mutual respect and genuine concern for the rights of parents and children.

“If, on the other hand, the dialogue is simply a Trojan horse for removing faith from schools – whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim – then we are destined to remain locked in unnecessary tensions about the future of education, to the detriment of children and society.”

Cardinal Brady said the suggestion schools were unable to be overtly Catholic and accommodate a degree of religious, cultural or ethnic diversity was “unfair and not borne out by experience”. Nor should the church create an impression that no room existed for sharing with other religious and secular approaches, he added.

“We should not apologise for who we are. In an increasingly diverse culture the future lies in ensuring that our schools become more authentically Catholic, both in terms of the authentic Catholic doctrine they teach and the Christian environment which they create.”

Setting out possible guiding principles for agreement on the future of schooling, the cardinal suggested that the Catholic Church should not create the impression that no room existed for mutual collaboration with other religious and secular approaches; that parents had the right to have their children educated in accordance with their convictions; and that the Catholic Church was open to diversity of provision, but Catholic parents had to be treated on the same basis as others.

Cardinal Brady was speaking at the launch of the Catholic Schools Partnership in Dublin yesterday.

He said he was “surprised and saddened” at the results of the Irish Times Ipsos/MRBI poll, which found that 61 per cent of people believed the church should give up control of the school system. “But opinion polls change and it’s the task of people who believe in Catholic schools to proclaim their worth,” he said.

He also called for stronger systems of inspection and accountability by the State in applying best practice in safeguarding children at school.

Separately, head of Amnesty International Ireland Colm O’Gorman said yesterday the quality of a child’s education in Ireland was still directly related to the ability of their parents to provide financial support to the school system. He was addressing the annual conference of the Irish Primary Principals’ Network.

Dades

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

To disadvantage any group of parents because of their (lack of) faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

Fixed your post, your worshipfullness.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

parents [have] a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

And Bishops on school boards have a 'right' to turn turn kids away whose parents don't match their philosophical and religious convictions.


*continues to shake fist at church*

Mark Hamill

What Brady left out (in itialics):

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

IT IS “blatantly unjust” and “a complete red herring” to say that the Catholic Church has no right to be involved in schools that receive State funding, Cardinal Seán Brady said yesterday, in a strong defence of the role of the church in education.

Sure its not like anything bad has ever happened with the Church in charge of schools

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

The Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland said parents had a right to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical and religious convictions and the State had a duty to support this with public funds.

As long as those philosophical and religious convictions are the same as mine

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

“Those parents who choose and value the Catholic education provided for their children are taxpayers in exactly the same way as parents who send their children to other types of schools.

And these are the only parents we should support.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

“To disadvantage any group of parents because of their faith is completely contrary to the principle of equality and pluralism,” he said

Especially if they are catholic parents who want the church in charge of schools, because they are more important than any other group of parents

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

The presumption the Catholic Church wanted to control as many schools as it could, irrespective of parental demands, was increasingly seen to be unfounded, he added.

Its not like there is any evidence that, say, 61% of people think that the church should give up control of schools and we are continuing to ignore it.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

“Equally, the idea that the only way to accommodate religious and cultural diversity in society is to remove the church completely from State-funded schools is increasingly seen as unjust, unhelpful and contrary to the principle of pluralism.”

Come on, the only way to be fair to everyone is to not give one group unfounded and unsupported authority over all the others? How is that fair to me?

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

Cardinal Brady said a new maturity had entered the debate about education and the church, and this had cleared the way “for what could be the most creative and constructive dialogue about the future of education in this country since partition”.

The church was willing to be an enthusiastic and constructive partner if the debate was based on mutual respect and genuine concern for the rights of parents and children.

“If, on the other hand, the dialogue is simply a Trojan horse for removing faith from schools – whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim – then we are destined to remain locked in unnecessary tensions about the future of education, to the detriment of children and society.”

We will happily enter debates onhow schools should be run, but we are willing to hurt the education of children if we do not get what we want, regardless of what everyone else wants.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

Cardinal Brady said the suggestion schools were unable to be overtly Catholic and accommodate a degree of religious, cultural or ethnic diversity was “unfair and not borne out by experience”. Nor should the church create an impression that no room existed for sharing with other religious and secular approaches, he added.

But catholics will be our first choice as students. And teachers. And on the boards of schools. Even if we have to import them

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

“We should not apologise for who we are.

We realise these demands are hipocritical and despicible be we dont care.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

In an increasingly diverse culture the future lies in ensuring that our schools become more authentically Catholic, both in terms of the authentic Catholic doctrine they teach and the Christian environment which they create.”

The only way for the catholic church to keep its hold on this country is to indoctrinate kids when they are too young to question it.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

Setting out possible guiding principles for agreement on the future of schooling, the cardinal suggested that the Catholic Church should not create the impression that no room existed for mutual collaboration with other religious and secular approaches; that parents had the right to have their children educated in accordance with their convictions; and that the Catholic Church was open to diversity of provision, but Catholic parents had to be treated on the same basis as others.

Even if those catholic parents didn't actually want the church in charge of schools, they had the right to have their kids indoctrinated against their will.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

He said he was “surprised and saddened” at the results of the Irish Times Ipsos/MRBI poll, which found that 61 per cent of people believed the church should give up control of the school system. “But opinion polls change and it’s the task of people who believe in Catholic schools to proclaim their worth,” he said.

Its a terrible pity that that opinion poll managed to get a reasonable representation of the the people in ireland, next time, people who want catholic run schools should search out the people running the polls and use different disguises so they can give multiple responses and really give their opinion the higher weight it actually deserves.

Cardinal Se&#225 wrote: »

He also called for stronger systems of inspection and accountability by the State in applying best practice in safeguarding children at school.

But these should probably still be run by the church to prevent them saying that the church should give the schools back in order to give the kids an unbiased education or anything crazy like that.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

*continues to shake fist at church*

Perhaps we could meet up outside the Pro-Cathedral and jointly shake our fists at this bunch of pink-hatted layabouts?

I'm sure we could twitter up a respectable crowd on Saturday evening

robindch

Mr Daly wrote:

He also called for stronger systems of inspection and accountability by the State in applying best practice in safeguarding children at school.

ie, while he wants his religious organization to control appointments to the school staff, he doesn't want his organization to be responsible for what they do once they are appointed.

This is structurally the same as the popes appointing of bishops to Ireland, but Ratzinger's subsequent denial of responsibility for what these bishops did.

.

Galvasean

I see the good people of After Hours have weighed in on the subject:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64222142&posted=1#post64222142
Very few siding with the cardinal on this one.
Say what you will about After Hours, but I think it's an excellent window peek at Ireland's Zeitgeist.