Does this make me a racist?

Judgement Day · 20-01-2010 01:34PM #1

Am I the only person who is sick and tired of reading report in the local and national papers of criminal behaviour by non-nationals? This weeks' Guardian is particular bad with court reports on the following:

1) Czech national pleads guilty to running a brothel in Ferns.
2) Lithuanian crashed car while over the limit.
3) Lidl whiskey thief in court. A Lativian with a two year list of convictions including five counts of theft and two of public drunkeness.
4) Polish man tried to steal cans. Unemployed Polish man tried to steal cans of beer from Pettits.
5) Man found drunk could not remember incident. 49 year old, unemployed Polish man found lying on street.
6) House damaged in girlfriend row. 31 year Lithuanian man. Criminal damage, threatening behaviour and breach of the peace.

Similar stories every week. Of course there are lots of local (Irish) people also in court for similar offences but that is my point - we have enough home-grown troublemakers without importing them! I know having been on the receiving end of them. The whole scenario where EU nationals can roam about Europe with little or no passport checks etc is a recipe for disaster. It should be made very difficult for anybody with a criminal record to enter the state, and when they are convicted in an Irish court they should be deported and banned from re-entering the state on completion of their sentence. This is the situation that pertains on the Isle of Man and results in them having virtually zero crime. Any thoughts?

mike65 · 20-01-2010 01:46PM

Yeah you're a racist/xenophobe

Judgement Day · 20-01-2010 01:49PM

mike65 wrote: »

Yeah you're a racist/xenophobe

I'm afraid I was hoping for a bit more than name calling!

Drummerboy08 · 20-01-2010 01:49PM

I tend to agree with you there. Nice to see someone has a bit of sense.

Judgement Day · 20-01-2010 01:50PM

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I tend to agree with you there. Nice to see someone has a bit of sense.

Who are you agreeing with?

Morlar · 20-01-2010 01:53PM

I think criminal convictions should restrict free movement across the EU. F*** em. No criminal convictions - fine. A list as long as your arm - then not welcome. I would apply this equally to Irish scumbags looking to move to anywhere else in the eu too.

mike65 · 20-01-2010 01:54PM

Okay, if you make judgements based on nationality or not being a certain nationality (Irish) then thats xenophobia. People are people. Some bad, most good (the ones you are not complaining about) the law is straightforward and EU citizens cannot be turfed out. Just as well bearing how many Irish are in other EU countries.

The Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

biko · 20-01-2010 01:57PM

Well if the incidents makes you look down on all fordiners, then yes that would be racism (judging people on ethnicity).
Everyone have racism in them to some degree, as long as it doesn't turn nasty (name calling, violence, refusing to get in the taxi, ...) I guess it can be tolerated - not everyone will embrace the new Ireland as quickly as others.

who the fug · 20-01-2010 02:00PM

A perfect circle as as I can see

Ireland not so long ago would give a person an option of a boat to Britain to avoid jail

God is Good

the iceman come · 20-01-2010 02:04PM

Xenaphobia ia just a label,

What about common sense? If someone wants to come here or an Irish person go there and cause havoc,let them be deported,no-one needs people like this so
as much as I hate to accept back the Irish scumbags who cause trouble elsewhere,they have to live somewhere.

Also I think it is fair to say there are a lot more non-national criminals in this country than you will find Irish criminals abroad, the truth is we are flooded with them. I am not a rascist but this is the plain truth.

TheScribbler · 20-01-2010 02:06PM

who the fug wrote: »

A perfect circle as as I can see

Ireland not so long ago would give a person an option of a boat to Britain to avoid jail

God is Good

Before that it was a one way ticket to Van Diemans land and Tasmania

plasmaguy · 20-01-2010 02:08PM

You are not racist.

Foreigners/non-nationals are neither perfect, friendlier, nicer, as some would have us believe, than Irish people, nor are they nastier, meaner, more prone to criminality.

In most nationalities you get roughly the same amount of criminality.

Judgement Day · 20-01-2010 02:10PM

Magnus wrote: »

Well if the incidents makes you look down on all fordiners, then yes that would be racism (judging people on ethnicity).
Everyone have racism in them to some degree, as long as it doesn't turn nasty (name calling, violence, refusing to get in the taxi, ...) I guess it can be tolerated - not everyone will embrace the new Ireland as quickly as others.

Thanks for some common sense. Of course I don't look down on foreigners but I do think we ought to operate a zero tolerance policy when it comes to crime be it foreigners or locals. I take people as I find them not by they colour or accent, but I don't think we are doing anybody any favours by letting the country disintegrate in to a general state of anarchy in order to be politically correct.

who the fug · 20-01-2010 02:14PM

TheScribbler wrote: »

Before that it was a one way ticket to Van Diemans land and Tasmania

Let us not forget our responsibility for supplying criminals to the USA & Barbados

psychopaul · 20-01-2010 02:19PM

You're worried about some Polish man stealing cans when we've got crooks in the Dail, Banks fleecing the public coffers, and paedofile priests?
<snip>

20-01-2010 02:42PM

Right, I'm happy enough for the moment to let this thread go on as I think the original point is an interesting and topical one.

However, the next person who starts engaging in personal abuse will get a weeks ban straight off. Consider this the final warning.

sallysaucer · 21-01-2010 10:10AM

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!

But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

Judgement Day · 21-01-2010 10:58AM

sallysaucer wrote: »

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!

But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

Thanks Sally but I doubt that the small scumbag element from amongst the many migrants, from Eastern Europe and elsewhere, are going to build a new Ireland. And your point about it getting more serious is also a concern of mine given that a lot of these anti-social crimes were already taking place at the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger - certainly from my own direct experience.

looksee · 23-01-2010 07:25PM

Much of the problem is the fact that non-nationals tend to be identified in the report. It makes a better story than to say 'a man was charged with theft' or even 'an Irish man was charged' - of course he was Irish, this is Ireland, so its not worth mentioning. Even with locals you would see 'father of five...' or 'property developer charged with...'. It used to be the practise to say 'A Catholic man...' or 'a Protestant man...' about offences in the North. Its all about giving the public a handle to put on the offender, and take an interest.

smellslikeshoes · 24-01-2010 10:59AM

sallysaucer wrote: »

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even
if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!
But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

There have been some serious cases. My own Uncle was attacked and beaten into a Coma on the streets of Gorey by a group of non nationals and died in hospital a few days later. I'm not racist I know most of Non nationals are great people but I do think that there are criminals that have gotten a free ride over here because if they were cracked down upon there would be cries of racism.

In my opinion there should be a 3 strikes system whereby, any non national that has moved here and gets convicted of 3 crimes in the space of say the first 3 years should be sent back. As well of course as what is detailed in Morlar's post

Judgement Day · 24-01-2010 12:43PM

Smellslikeshoes - why three strikes and out? One conviction and deportation on completion of sentence. No admission to State of anybody with a previous conviction as it the situation in USA, Australia (?) and other states with sensible border controls.

bmaxi · 24-01-2010 12:44PM

I think it's wrong and dangerous to pigeonhole people. The case of smellslikeshoes' uncle was a very recent and tragic event but it doesn't alter the fact that we have plenty of our own homegrown thugs on the streets.
The problem, as I see it, is drink and drugs and the Courts' attitude to the issue. How many times have we seen solicitors or barristers offer up the excuse " He wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for the drink", in defence of a client who has robbed, maimed or even killed someone
Not good enough IMO., people have got to be responsible for their own actions. If you can't control yourself then the State has a duty to protect other people from you. It's time the legal profession came to grips with this and stopped making excuses for bad behaviour.
The crime reports in the press tend to emphasise the fact when non-nationals are involved, to sensationalise the case.
I've seen reports in the papers of road accidents in County Wexford, stressing the involvement of non-nationals. I have to ask, given the proximity of Rosslare Harbour, what are the chances of a non-national being involved in a RTA, particularly if coming from a country which drives on the other side of the road?
Pure tabloid journalism.

Judgement Day · 24-01-2010 12:56PM

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Dr_Phil · 24-01-2010 01:20PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Absolutely. Being from Easter Europe myself I am sick of those thugs who by going abroad put the 99% of average post-communist society in a bad light. They should be locked down in their villages and be allowed to interact with locals only. I am also sick and tired of being identified with them, just because I was unlucky enough to be born in the same area of X.000 square miles. However I would appreciate if you refer to those people as "thieves" or "burglars" without highlihgting their nationality in a first place - I guess you want to fight with crime in general, not just with Polish, Slovakian or Lithuaninan crime, putting the Irish ones ("our lads are grand") on a long finger.

PS: How did the other countries deal with the Irish who break the law? Maybe Ireland should follow that example? Were there may Irish deported back from USA, UK, Australia, Spain, etc., etc.

smellslikeshoes · 24-01-2010 01:58PM

The crime reports in the press tend to emphasise the fact when non-nationals are involved, to sensationalise the case.

I personally think that is overstated. I spent the day in court in Wexford town once waiting with a friend who was up for something minor, non nationals are definitely over represented when the ratio of Non nationals to Irish nationals is considered.

I'm not saying that a non national is more likely to become a criminal I'm saying that moving to a new country without family, friends etc. to fall back on can leave one in a situation where commiting crimes is more likely to happen.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Smellslikeshoes - why three strikes and out? One conviction and deportation on completion of sentence. No admission to State of anybody with a previous conviction as it the situation in USA, Australia (?) and other states with sensible border controls.

Well by convictions I meant minor things like say, drunk and disorderly etc. In the case of major things they should see out their sentence and sent home.

To be honest I don't agree with the super strict visa controls in places like the US. Being in trouble for one little thing can stop you from getting into the US. I only think there should be restrictions on getting in to Ireland if someone was convicted of a serious offense or of a list of things.

Drummerboy08 · 24-01-2010 02:03PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who are you agreeing with?

Sorry. I agree with you, should have made it more clear!

I once worked with a guy from Latvia who bought a car, but wouldn't tax it or insure it. He was stopped by the Gardai one night leaving work, and he was well over the limit too, in addition to all the other bits. He continued to drive even after being done for drink driving. He though as this is what alot of people could get away with in his home country, he could do it here too.

I know that this is an isolated incident, but it's (in my opinion) what alot of Eastern Europeans are doing at the minute.

24-01-2010 02:11PM

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sorry. I agree with you, should have made it more clear!

I once worked with a guy from Latvia who bought a car, but wouldn't tax it or insure it. He was stopped by the Gardai one night leaving work, and he was well over the limit too, in addition to all the other bits. He continued to drive even after being done for drink driving. He though as this is what alot of people could get away with in his home country, he could do it here too.

I know that this is an isolated incident, but it's (in my opinion) what alot of Eastern Europeans are doing at the minute.

To be fair, Eastern Europeans are not the only people doing this.

I think that the papers will always highlight the issue of a foreign national in court and this thread supports this - it creates controversy and this sells papers.

Dr_Phil · 24-01-2010 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair, Eastern Europeans are not the only people doing this.

I think that the papers will always highlight the issue of a foreign national in court and this thread supports this - it creates controversy and this sells papers.

We are an easy target because we are white and european. Dump so much sh1t on a black/indian/asian person and you will end up in jail.

bmaxi · 24-01-2010 03:24PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Why would I be disingenuous, I don't have a vested interest?
I simply don't think it's a valid argument, I liken this to the stories of immigrants being given cars 'phones, houses etc., I've never seen any of those stories substantiated.
For my own part, I have seen the contribution immigrants have made to my community, which hasn't been matched by their indigenous neighbours and which hasn't made the pages of the local rag.
There can be black sheep in any family and my point is that newspapers will cherrypick incidents to report, for maximum effect.

Judgement Day · 24-01-2010 03:31PM

bmaxi wrote: »

Why would I be disingenuous, I don't have a vested interest?
I simply don't think it's a valid argument, I liken this to the stories of immigrants being given cars 'phones, houses etc., I've never seen any of those stories substantiated.
For my own part, I have seen the contribution immigrants have made to my community, which hasn't been matched by their indigenous neighbours and which hasn't made the pages of the local rag.
There can be black sheep in any family and my point is that newspapers will cherrypick incidents to report, for maximum effect.

You cannot liken my quotation of actual court reports from a local paper with urban myths about immigrants being given cars, phones, houses etc. Also, I am not talking about law abiding immigrants I am talking about the minority who do not accept their responsiblities to their new home and those with previous criminal records who come here and continue on their merry way.

24-01-2010 03:35PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

You cannot liken my quotation of actual court reports from a local paper with urban myths about immigrants being given cars, phones, houses etc. Also, I am not talking about law abiding immigrants I am talking about the minority who do not accept their responsiblities to their new home and those with previous criminal records who come here and continue on their merry way.

Yes you can - court reports are selective, the papers will put those which it believes are of interest to people in them. I don't know if all reports are published.

Does this make me a racist?

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