Does this make me a racist?

Judgement Day

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you can - court reports are selective, the papers will put those which it believes are of interest to people in them. I don't know if all reports are published.

I don't know whether or not all court reports are published but given the amount of space that they take up in the Guardian/Echo I would be surprised if they aren't! To me a disproportionate of them concern foreign nationals. I still don't see how court reports can be compared to tabloid rubbish/urban myths about handouts to foreign nationals - that is just muddying the waters. It's the old tradition - you don't like the message shoot (me) the messenger.

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't know whether or not all court reports are published but given the amount of space that they take up in the Guardian/Echo I would be surprised if they aren't! To me a disproportionate of them concern foreign nationals. I still don't see how court reports can be compared to tabloid rubbish/urban myths about handouts to foreign nationals - that is just muddying the waters. It's the old tradition - you don't like the message shoot (me) the messenger.

The parameters are the same, reports of Irish people receiving handouts are not newsworthy.
I haven't seen any reports in the Wexford media to say that those before the Courts are serial offenders, indeed you would expect those people to be wary of coming in contact with the law.
Employment in Wexford was heavily concentrated on construction, construction was heavily populated with non-nationals. Wexford probably has a disproportionate number of non-nationals compared to most other counties, surely a factor that would have an influence on the numbers before the Courts but not a fact the papers choose to highlight.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story", as Hearst is reputed to have said.

LeBash

Morlar wrote: »

I think criminal convictions should restrict free movement across the EU. F*** em. No criminal convictions - fine. A list as long as your arm - then not welcome. I would apply this equally to Irish scumbags looking to move to anywhere else in the eu too.

100% agree. I dont want to export our scumbags on other nations, and I feel we shouldnt have to tollerate it the other way around. If someone has alot of minor offences such as shoplifting, or one major offence like GBH or armed robbery, then turn them around at the expense of the Airline that took them here.

As for Irish people that cause trouble here, same dealio. When they are off to Costa del Sol and Playa Del Ingles etc, turn them back at passport control.

Judgement Day

bmaxi wrote: »

The parameters are the same, reports of Irish people receiving handouts are not newsworthy.
I haven't seen any reports in the Wexford media to say that those before the Courts are serial offenders, indeed you would expect those people to be wary of coming in contact with the law.
Employment in Wexford was heavily concentrated on construction, construction was heavily populated with non-nationals. Wexford probably has a disproportionate number of non-nationals compared to most other counties, surely a factor that would have an influence on the numbers before the Courts but not a fact the papers choose to highlight.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story", as Hearst is reputed to have said.

I'm afraid that there is no point in arguing any further with you as you are clearly not au fait with what is going in the local papers - only last week there was one particular case of a non-national repeat offender in the Guardian. If you like I will put the relevant piece up tomorrow?

Back in 2007 there were a number of serious incidents involving non-national offenders with serious criminal records (including rape, extortion etc) - I wrote to the then Justice Minister Michael 'last Sting of a dying wasp' McDowell but sadly he was out of office a few weeks later and so all I had was the standard civil service holding letter. We cannot sleepwalk through this life and not expect serious consequences.

How about this as an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0210/1233867928861.html

Note that the deceased, also a non-national was jailed in July 1990 for the rape of an underage female and for theft and hooliganism. He was released in 1994 but was returned to prison in 1995 to serve 11 years for robbery. What on earth was he doing in Ireland??

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm afraid that there is no point in arguing any further with you as you are clearly not au fait with what is going in the local papers - only last week there was one particular case of a non-national repeat offender in the Guardian. If you like I will put the relevant piece up tomorrow?

Back in 2007 there were a number of serious incidents involving non-national offenders with serious criminal records (including rape, extortion etc) - I wrote to the then Justice Minister Michael 'last Sting of a dying wasp' McDowell but sadly he was out of office a few weeks later and so all I had was the standard civil service holding letter. We cannot sleepwalk through this life and not expect serious consequences.

How about this as an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0210/1233867928861.html

Note that the deceased, also a non-national was jailed in July 1990 for the rape of an underage female and for theft and hooliganism. He was released in 1994 but was returned to prison in 1995 to serve 11 years for robbery. What on earth was he doing in Ireland??

Unfortunately I don't have any links to contributions made by my immigrant neighbours, as I said before, not newsworthy
You are right in one respect, there is no point arguing with me. I will never accept sensational newspaper reports over the evidence of my own eyes but I promise as soon as the Polish carpenter down the road has finished repairs to the door and floor of the community centre, I will personally supervise his being frogmarched to the quay in Rosslare. I'll even go to the local scumbags who burst the door in the first place for help in doing it.

Judgement Day

bmaxi wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't have any links to contributions made by my immigrant neighbours, as I said before, not newsworthy
You are right in one respect, there is no point arguing with me. I will never accept sensational newspaper reports over the evidence of my own eyes but I promise as soon as the Polish carpenter down the road has finished repairs to the door and floor of the community centre, I will personally supervise his being frogmarched to the quay in Rosslare. I'll even go to the local scumbags who burst the door in the first place for help in doing it.

And do you seriously suggest that that is what I am saying?

Oh and by the way I checked with a senior reporter in one of the local newspapers today and he confirmed my belief that all the court cases are reported - not just the 'sexy' ones.

I think people need to relax for a second, there are two unrelated issues at play here.

The first is the nature of the reports - Court reporters will only comment on those cases which they believe are newsworthy (read 'makes people go and buy the papers'). That is not to say that there aren't a large number of foreign nationals appearing in front of our courts, but I would want to see statistics from the courts on this matter. I will ask some people in this area if these stats exist.

Secondly is the nature of immigration in Ireland - this is one of the costs of the EU that we must put up with. We do appear to be lax in the checking of information who land here. I always recieve a much more thorough screening when travelling to the UK then I do when I return to Dublin. However, we gained tremendously over the past few years with the aid of foreign labour, and I would go as far to say that many people, both foreign and domestic, who live in this country and who have criminal convictions contribute to society now in the same manner that people with no convictions do.

Don't forget, that for every person (be they Irish or not) who makes the news as a repeat offender, there are many more people who have convictions and live normally now. Should we punish them (again?) for actions of an unconnected person?

MJ23

Why do people use "non-nationals"? They're foreigners. I've nothing against them, except the ones who cause trouble. They should be sent back to where they came from, and not be wasting our money by putting them up in jail.
Its the same as a person who is not a professional sports person, we dont say that they're "non-professional". They're amateurs.

Squiggle

I've never understood the term non-national myself. We are all from some country so I would have thought foreign national was the correct term. That aside I don't see the point in general in mentioning a persons nationality in court reports in papers. I object to trouble makers because of what they do not because of where they're from.

MJ23

MJ23 wrote: »

Why do people use "non-nationals"? They're foreigners. I've nothing against them, except the ones who cause trouble. They should be sent back to where they came from, and not be wasting our money by putting them up in jail.
Its the same as a person who is not a professional sports person, we dont say that they're "non-professional". They're amateurs.

One can be foreign and not be a non national. For example, people with dual citizenship.

Bearhunter

I think you're all missing the point a bit here. The government CAN'T "send them back where they came from". The have freedom of movement within the EU and can move where they like. Short of leaving the EU (and the country is in no condition to even contemplate that), it looks like you'll just have to put up with it.

And with regards to the original post, that list of offences is possibly the most minor crime wave I've ever seen. Assuming 4 and 5 are the same bloke (I wasn't aware there was an offence of being drunk and unable to remember an "incident" - if there is it's the most under-policed offence on the statute books), you have five petty crimes (all punishable by fines rather than prison), four of them drink-related. Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

Drummerboy08

Bearhunter wrote: »

Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

Lol :pac:

Judgement Day

Bearhunter wrote: »

I think you're all missing the point a bit here. The government CAN'T "send them back where they came from". The have freedom of movement within the EU and can move where they like. Short of leaving the EU (and the country is in no condition to even contemplate that), it looks like you'll just have to put up with it.

And with regards to the original post, that list of offences is possibly the most minor crime wave I've ever seen. Assuming 4 and 5 are the same bloke (I wasn't aware there was an offence of being drunk and unable to remember an "incident" - if there is it's the most under-policed offence on the statute books), you have five petty crimes (all punishable by fines rather than prison), four of them drink-related. Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

No I'm not missing any point - I am raising an issue that concerns me and I am well aware that the 'wonderful' EU gives people the freedom to roam about Europe uncontrolled and I for one want the law changed. We have exemptions from all sorts of other things that the government don't approve of so why not proper border controls? Just in whose interest is it, apart from drug dealers and international terrorists, that we have ineffective border controls? Your point about a crime wave is hilarious - I wasn't suggesting a crime wave I was just quoting some court reports from the local newspaper - there will be more in tomorrow's papers and you may rest assured that they will be posted here! As for integrating well into Enniscorthy, you make a valid point, as of all the places I have ever lived this town has a disproportionately high number of scumbags.

Bearhunter

Well good luck with getting the Government to start lobbying the EU to repeal freedom of movement. And I'd be against it if they did; I think "foreigners" contribute more to the country than they take from it and are a welcome addition to what was for so long a homogenous population. Secondly, freedom of movement was introduced because we were all one community - barring people from entering would be like banning Corkmen from Wexford (a pleasant thought, admittedly). A German could move freely within the EU as could an Irishman, that was the whole point, making it easier to work and do business with each other.
Putting restrictions on those with criminal records is too complicated. Where do you draw the line? One term of imprisonment? Total number of years behind bars? How then do you accommodate the different sentences in different jurisdictions? You could get a ten stretch for murder in Germany, for example, and get the same in Hungary for burglary, say. Which is the better person? And if you decide that anyone with 10 years' prison behind them is unwelcome, then what of the idea that once the sentence is served, the debt to society is paid? How long do you keep punishing them for?
Perhaps if the communities they move into make it clear that they do not tolerate petty crime (or any other sort of crime) they will either move on or assimilate. But Irish communities can't do that in all conscience, really, can they? The blind eye, the backhander and the nixer mentality don't exactly leave us whiter than white, if you'll excuse the phrase. The hook and the chancer are celebrated in Ireland.
Frankly, given the amount of crimes that are associated with alcohol, wouldn't it be easier to simply better enforce the laws around the sale and supply of liquor?

Judgement Day

Bearhunter I have had enough dealings with politicians down the years to know that they are not worth a ........te and I have better things to do with my remaining years on the planet. That said it does not alter certain basic facts such as the need for proper border controls - the situation where you have one mobile unit for scanning trucks for drugs/stowaways etc and it rotates between Dublin and Rosslare (with its movements monitored by criminals) is a case in point. What are we waiting for - our own 9/11 - before we wake up? I'm sorry for wandering way off topic but it is all part of the same general problem of not knowing/caring who enters our country.

Bearhunter

Fair enough, JD. I don't live in Ireland anymore anyway, but it seems to me that the walls came down around the same time everyone decided that rampant wealth-accumulation was the be-all and end-all of life. It looks from here as though the Government stopped doing most of what it's supposed to do and concentrated on being a big, more expensive version of the IDA, getting more businesses into Ireland and to hell with the mundane neccessities of running a country like maintaining infrastructure, manning the borders and putting a few quid by for a rainy day.

Anyway, this has been a good debate over the past four pages. Nice to get genuine debate in cyberspace, rather than the usual descent into ad hominem attack and personal abuse after six posts. What a pleasant relief. All the best.

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

And do you seriously suggest that that is what I am saying?

Oh and by the way I checked with a senior reporter in one of the local newspapers today and he confirmed my belief that all the court cases are reported - not just the 'sexy' ones.

Over the years I've realised that what you say doesn't matter a damn, it's what others infer from what you say.
My point, from the outset has been that newspapers are only interested in a good story, they are not interested in striking a balance.
"Fcukers coming over here causing trouble, taking our jobs and our women". The first time I heard sentiments like that was in London in the 1960s, in the "No blacks, no Irish" era. I was never in trouble, I came home and married an Irish girl, I had friends of all races and religions. In my experience the sentiment was not widespread among the English native population but if the media were to be believed, then the city was under siege.
The result of all this was ghettoisation and we would do well to take the example of our neighbours to account before going down that road.
Whether we like it or not, these people are here for the long term and, IMO, are a welcome addition for the most part. I don't see what good can be served by demonising whole sections of the community for the misdeeds of a few, just to sell a few newspapers.

Bearhunter

@ Bmaxi: I see your point. And it reminds me of something I heard a few years back about the famously "Little England" minded Daily Mail: The definition of a moral dilemma for DM readers would be if illegal immigrants started lynching paedophiles. Looks like the Irish press is going that way too.

Judgement Day

Bearhunter wrote: »

@ Bmaxi: I see your point. And it reminds me of something I heard a few years back about the famously "Little England" minded Daily Mail: The definition of a moral dilemma for DM readers would be if illegal immigrants started lynching paedophiles. Looks like the Irish press is going that way too.

I was hoping to post some more court reports from today's local papers but there is a shortage of interesting cases - (non-national and native alike) - a temporary blip I'm sure. The truth of it is that court cases and photographs of everybody in the county concerned have been the staple diet of local newspapers since time in memoriam. That said it does not take away from my previous points. Incidentally, I have only once in my life that I can recall bought a tabloid newspaper (and that's was for coverage of Botham's Ashes in 1981?) I don't read any Irish or British newspapers except the (ho,ho,ho!!) paper of record in the local library. I am an old fart, just past 50, and my chief concern is for the type of country my very young kids are growing up in. I have no problem with immigration provided it is properly regulated and have friends of many different races/creeds.

Bearhunter

"I don't read any Irish or British newspapers except the (ho,ho,ho!!) paper of record"

Cripes, I think we're all in a bit of trouble if the Ache-Oh is the paper of record. Must be an absolute breeze being editor of that publication.
And I hear what you're saying about the country your kids are growing up in. I'm in my 40s and left 20 years ago. I realise now that I grew up in a completely different country to the one I visited in October.

Judgement Day

Sorry for being so vague Bearhunter - the paper of 'record' that I referred to is the Irish Times; at least that is how they self style themselves. I grew up in a County Wicklow town in the 1960s; a place where people could go out and leave their key in the front door - the past is truly a foreign country!

Bearhunter

Ah right, Ted, gotcha now. I don't mind the IT, but newpapers always seem somehow a bit ****ter than they were when I was young. The news is the same. And it's not just an Irish thing - the media here in NZ is diabolical, and I say that as someone who works in it.
As for leaving the key in the door, I was able to do that growing up in the 70s in the Shannon in Enniscorthy. Loads of people did. One day my mother forgot to leave the key so I went in through the neighbours four doors down, climbed across the garden walls and went in the wide open back door. Different times all right.

murrax

Dr_Phil wrote: »

We are an easy target because we are white and european. Dump so much sh1t on a black/indian/asian person and you will end up in jail.

Good Point Dr Phil

chicklick

I'm with you on this one judgement day. These people were handed everything possible when they came to this country, a few of them worked and worked hard here and fair play to them, but it seems to me that there were others who saw this country as some place to do as they liked. It is true that they seem to be in the papers more and more every week, they are also adding to our already over burdened welfare system. ok I know some of you are now screaming racist at me but let sense prevail here people. Those who came here to work and who paid their taxes during the good times obviously have a genuine right to claim back their stamps. But (and if you open your eyes and face facts you'll admit I'm right) the ones who came here to make the most of our welfare state should not in any way shape or form be allowed stay here. We have enough of our own to contend with. Now could some of the bleeding heart responses to this post leave your name and address, I could pop around to your house a few nights for dinner and the use of your tv. Oh yeah and a few euro to go out at the weekend too would be nice too. Now in answer to your question judgement day, NO you are not racist just someone who can see sense and call it as he sees it. Fair play to you