Does this make me a racist?

Judgement Day

Am I the only person who is sick and tired of reading report in the local and national papers of criminal behaviour by non-nationals? This weeks' Guardian is particular bad with court reports on the following:

1) Czech national pleads guilty to running a brothel in Ferns.
2) Lithuanian crashed car while over the limit.
3) Lidl whiskey thief in court. A Lativian with a two year list of convictions including five counts of theft and two of public drunkeness.
4) Polish man tried to steal cans. Unemployed Polish man tried to steal cans of beer from Pettits.
5) Man found drunk could not remember incident. 49 year old, unemployed Polish man found lying on street.
6) House damaged in girlfriend row. 31 year Lithuanian man. Criminal damage, threatening behaviour and breach of the peace.

Similar stories every week. Of course there are lots of local (Irish) people also in court for similar offences but that is my point - we have enough home-grown troublemakers without importing them! I know having been on the receiving end of them. The whole scenario where EU nationals can roam about Europe with little or no passport checks etc is a recipe for disaster. It should be made very difficult for anybody with a criminal record to enter the state, and when they are convicted in an Irish court they should be deported and banned from re-entering the state on completion of their sentence. This is the situation that pertains on the Isle of Man and results in them having virtually zero crime. Any thoughts?

mike65

Yeah you're a racist/xenophobe

Judgement Day

mike65 wrote: »

Yeah you're a racist/xenophobe

I'm afraid I was hoping for a bit more than name calling!

Drummerboy08

I tend to agree with you there. Nice to see someone has a bit of sense.

Judgement Day

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I tend to agree with you there. Nice to see someone has a bit of sense.

Who are you agreeing with?

Morlar

I think criminal convictions should restrict free movement across the EU. F*** em. No criminal convictions - fine. A list as long as your arm - then not welcome. I would apply this equally to Irish scumbags looking to move to anywhere else in the eu too.

mike65

Okay, if you make judgements based on nationality or not being a certain nationality (Irish) then thats xenophobia. People are people. Some bad, most good (the ones you are not complaining about) the law is straightforward and EU citizens cannot be turfed out. Just as well bearing how many Irish are in other EU countries.

The Isle of Man is not a member of the EU.

biko

Well if the incidents makes you look down on all fordiners, then yes that would be racism (judging people on ethnicity).
Everyone have racism in them to some degree, as long as it doesn't turn nasty (name calling, violence, refusing to get in the taxi, ...) I guess it can be tolerated - not everyone will embrace the new Ireland as quickly as others.

who the fug

A perfect circle as as I can see


Ireland not so long ago would give a person an option of a boat to Britain to avoid jail

God is Good

the iceman come

Xenaphobia ia just a label,

What about common sense? If someone wants to come here or an Irish person go there and cause havoc,let them be deported,no-one needs people like this so
as much as I hate to accept back the Irish scumbags who cause trouble elsewhere,they have to live somewhere.

Also I think it is fair to say there are a lot more non-national criminals in this country than you will find Irish criminals abroad, the truth is we are flooded with them. I am not a rascist but this is the plain truth.

TheScribbler

who the fug wrote: »

A perfect circle as as I can see


Ireland not so long ago would give a person an option of a boat to Britain to avoid jail

God is Good

Before that it was a one way ticket to Van Diemans land and Tasmania

plasmaguy

You are not racist.

Foreigners/non-nationals are neither perfect, friendlier, nicer, as some would have us believe, than Irish people, nor are they nastier, meaner, more prone to criminality.

In most nationalities you get roughly the same amount of criminality.

Judgement Day

Magnus wrote: »

Well if the incidents makes you look down on all fordiners, then yes that would be racism (judging people on ethnicity).
Everyone have racism in them to some degree, as long as it doesn't turn nasty (name calling, violence, refusing to get in the taxi, ...) I guess it can be tolerated - not everyone will embrace the new Ireland as quickly as others.

Thanks for some common sense. Of course I don't look down on foreigners but I do think we ought to operate a zero tolerance policy when it comes to crime be it foreigners or locals. I take people as I find them not by they colour or accent, but I don't think we are doing anybody any favours by letting the country disintegrate in to a general state of anarchy in order to be politically correct.

who the fug

TheScribbler wrote: »

Before that it was a one way ticket to Van Diemans land and Tasmania

Let us not forget our responsibility for supplying criminals to the USA & Barbados

psychopaul

You're worried about some Polish man stealing cans when we've got crooks in the Dail, Banks fleecing the public coffers, and paedofile priests?
<snip>

Right, I'm happy enough for the moment to let this thread go on as I think the original point is an interesting and topical one.

However, the next person who starts engaging in personal abuse will get a weeks ban straight off. Consider this the final warning.

sallysaucer

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!

But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

Judgement Day

sallysaucer wrote: »

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!

But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

Thanks Sally but I doubt that the small scumbag element from amongst the many migrants, from Eastern Europe and elsewhere, are going to build a new Ireland. And your point about it getting more serious is also a concern of mine given that a lot of these anti-social crimes were already taking place at the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger - certainly from my own direct experience.

looksee

Much of the problem is the fact that non-nationals tend to be identified in the report. It makes a better story than to say 'a man was charged with theft' or even 'an Irish man was charged' - of course he was Irish, this is Ireland, so its not worth mentioning. Even with locals you would see 'father of five...' or 'property developer charged with...'. It used to be the practise to say 'A Catholic man...' or 'a Protestant man...' about offences in the North. Its all about giving the public a handle to put on the offender, and take an interest.

smellslikeshoes

sallysaucer wrote: »

I was actually just saying to someone the other day how are the court cases seem to be non nationals. I don't think your being racist. And I do agree something should be done to stop this high level of crime even
if it is just petty at the moment does not mean it will get more serious!
But on a different note it was the convicts of Ireland that built Australia!!!

Sally

There have been some serious cases. My own Uncle was attacked and beaten into a Coma on the streets of Gorey by a group of non nationals and died in hospital a few days later. I'm not racist I know most of Non nationals are great people but I do think that there are criminals that have gotten a free ride over here because if they were cracked down upon there would be cries of racism.

In my opinion there should be a 3 strikes system whereby, any non national that has moved here and gets convicted of 3 crimes in the space of say the first 3 years should be sent back. As well of course as what is detailed in Morlar's post

Judgement Day

Smellslikeshoes - why three strikes and out? One conviction and deportation on completion of sentence. No admission to State of anybody with a previous conviction as it the situation in USA, Australia (?) and other states with sensible border controls.

bmaxi

I think it's wrong and dangerous to pigeonhole people. The case of smellslikeshoes' uncle was a very recent and tragic event but it doesn't alter the fact that we have plenty of our own homegrown thugs on the streets.
The problem, as I see it, is drink and drugs and the Courts' attitude to the issue. How many times have we seen solicitors or barristers offer up the excuse " He wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for the drink", in defence of a client who has robbed, maimed or even killed someone
Not good enough IMO., people have got to be responsible for their own actions. If you can't control yourself then the State has a duty to protect other people from you. It's time the legal profession came to grips with this and stopped making excuses for bad behaviour.
The crime reports in the press tend to emphasise the fact when non-nationals are involved, to sensationalise the case.
I've seen reports in the papers of road accidents in County Wexford, stressing the involvement of non-nationals. I have to ask, given the proximity of Rosslare Harbour, what are the chances of a non-national being involved in a RTA, particularly if coming from a country which drives on the other side of the road?
Pure tabloid journalism.

Judgement Day

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Dr_Phil

Judgement Day wrote: »

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Absolutely. Being from Easter Europe myself I am sick of those thugs who by going abroad put the 99% of average post-communist society in a bad light. They should be locked down in their villages and be allowed to interact with locals only. I am also sick and tired of being identified with them, just because I was unlucky enough to be born in the same area of X.000 square miles. However I would appreciate if you refer to those people as "thieves" or "burglars" without highlihgting their nationality in a first place - I guess you want to fight with crime in general, not just with Polish, Slovakian or Lithuaninan crime, putting the Irish ones ("our lads are grand") on a long finger.

PS: How did the other countries deal with the Irish who break the law? Maybe Ireland should follow that example? Were there may Irish deported back from USA, UK, Australia, Spain, etc., etc.

smellslikeshoes

The crime reports in the press tend to emphasise the fact when non-nationals are involved, to sensationalise the case.

I personally think that is overstated. I spent the day in court in Wexford town once waiting with a friend who was up for something minor, non nationals are definitely over represented when the ratio of Non nationals to Irish nationals is considered.

I'm not saying that a non national is more likely to become a criminal I'm saying that moving to a new country without family, friends etc. to fall back on can leave one in a situation where commiting crimes is more likely to happen.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Smellslikeshoes - why three strikes and out? One conviction and deportation on completion of sentence. No admission to State of anybody with a previous conviction as it the situation in USA, Australia (?) and other states with sensible border controls.

Well by convictions I meant minor things like say, drunk and disorderly etc. In the case of major things they should see out their sentence and sent home.

To be honest I don't agree with the super strict visa controls in places like the US. Being in trouble for one little thing can stop you from getting into the US. I only think there should be restrictions on getting in to Ireland if someone was convicted of a serious offense or of a list of things.

Drummerboy08

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who are you agreeing with?

Sorry. I agree with you, should have made it more clear!

I once worked with a guy from Latvia who bought a car, but wouldn't tax it or insure it. He was stopped by the Gardai one night leaving work, and he was well over the limit too, in addition to all the other bits. He continued to drive even after being done for drink driving. He though as this is what alot of people could get away with in his home country, he could do it here too.

I know that this is an isolated incident, but it's (in my opinion) what alot of Eastern Europeans are doing at the minute.

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sorry. I agree with you, should have made it more clear!

I once worked with a guy from Latvia who bought a car, but wouldn't tax it or insure it. He was stopped by the Gardai one night leaving work, and he was well over the limit too, in addition to all the other bits. He continued to drive even after being done for drink driving. He though as this is what alot of people could get away with in his home country, he could do it here too.

I know that this is an isolated incident, but it's (in my opinion) what alot of Eastern Europeans are doing at the minute.

To be fair, Eastern Europeans are not the only people doing this.

I think that the papers will always highlight the issue of a foreign national in court and this thread supports this - it creates controversy and this sells papers.

Dr_Phil

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair, Eastern Europeans are not the only people doing this.

I think that the papers will always highlight the issue of a foreign national in court and this thread supports this - it creates controversy and this sells papers.

We are an easy target because we are white and european. Dump so much sh1t on a black/indian/asian person and you will end up in jail.

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

bmaxi I think you are being a bit disingenuous there as most reports of road traffic incidents involving non-nationals in County Wexford are more to do with drink driving and not bothering to have insurance - nothing to do with the proximity of Rosslare Port or driving on the wrong side of the road. As I stressed in my OP I am well aware that we have plenty of our own, home grown, scumbags which is precisely why I object to importing more. We need to know who is coming into our country and we need to turn away those with criminal convictions.

Why would I be disingenuous, I don't have a vested interest?
I simply don't think it's a valid argument, I liken this to the stories of immigrants being given cars 'phones, houses etc., I've never seen any of those stories substantiated.
For my own part, I have seen the contribution immigrants have made to my community, which hasn't been matched by their indigenous neighbours and which hasn't made the pages of the local rag.
There can be black sheep in any family and my point is that newspapers will cherrypick incidents to report, for maximum effect.

Judgement Day

bmaxi wrote: »

Why would I be disingenuous, I don't have a vested interest?
I simply don't think it's a valid argument, I liken this to the stories of immigrants being given cars 'phones, houses etc., I've never seen any of those stories substantiated.
For my own part, I have seen the contribution immigrants have made to my community, which hasn't been matched by their indigenous neighbours and which hasn't made the pages of the local rag.
There can be black sheep in any family and my point is that newspapers will cherrypick incidents to report, for maximum effect.

You cannot liken my quotation of actual court reports from a local paper with urban myths about immigrants being given cars, phones, houses etc. Also, I am not talking about law abiding immigrants I am talking about the minority who do not accept their responsiblities to their new home and those with previous criminal records who come here and continue on their merry way.

Judgement Day

Judgement Day wrote: »

You cannot liken my quotation of actual court reports from a local paper with urban myths about immigrants being given cars, phones, houses etc. Also, I am not talking about law abiding immigrants I am talking about the minority who do not accept their responsiblities to their new home and those with previous criminal records who come here and continue on their merry way.

Yes you can - court reports are selective, the papers will put those which it believes are of interest to people in them. I don't know if all reports are published.

Judgement Day

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you can - court reports are selective, the papers will put those which it believes are of interest to people in them. I don't know if all reports are published.

I don't know whether or not all court reports are published but given the amount of space that they take up in the Guardian/Echo I would be surprised if they aren't! To me a disproportionate of them concern foreign nationals. I still don't see how court reports can be compared to tabloid rubbish/urban myths about handouts to foreign nationals - that is just muddying the waters. It's the old tradition - you don't like the message shoot (me) the messenger.

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't know whether or not all court reports are published but given the amount of space that they take up in the Guardian/Echo I would be surprised if they aren't! To me a disproportionate of them concern foreign nationals. I still don't see how court reports can be compared to tabloid rubbish/urban myths about handouts to foreign nationals - that is just muddying the waters. It's the old tradition - you don't like the message shoot (me) the messenger.

The parameters are the same, reports of Irish people receiving handouts are not newsworthy.
I haven't seen any reports in the Wexford media to say that those before the Courts are serial offenders, indeed you would expect those people to be wary of coming in contact with the law.
Employment in Wexford was heavily concentrated on construction, construction was heavily populated with non-nationals. Wexford probably has a disproportionate number of non-nationals compared to most other counties, surely a factor that would have an influence on the numbers before the Courts but not a fact the papers choose to highlight.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story", as Hearst is reputed to have said.

LeBash

Morlar wrote: »

I think criminal convictions should restrict free movement across the EU. F*** em. No criminal convictions - fine. A list as long as your arm - then not welcome. I would apply this equally to Irish scumbags looking to move to anywhere else in the eu too.

100% agree. I dont want to export our scumbags on other nations, and I feel we shouldnt have to tollerate it the other way around. If someone has alot of minor offences such as shoplifting, or one major offence like GBH or armed robbery, then turn them around at the expense of the Airline that took them here.

As for Irish people that cause trouble here, same dealio. When they are off to Costa del Sol and Playa Del Ingles etc, turn them back at passport control.

Judgement Day

bmaxi wrote: »

The parameters are the same, reports of Irish people receiving handouts are not newsworthy.
I haven't seen any reports in the Wexford media to say that those before the Courts are serial offenders, indeed you would expect those people to be wary of coming in contact with the law.
Employment in Wexford was heavily concentrated on construction, construction was heavily populated with non-nationals. Wexford probably has a disproportionate number of non-nationals compared to most other counties, surely a factor that would have an influence on the numbers before the Courts but not a fact the papers choose to highlight.
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story", as Hearst is reputed to have said.

I'm afraid that there is no point in arguing any further with you as you are clearly not au fait with what is going in the local papers - only last week there was one particular case of a non-national repeat offender in the Guardian. If you like I will put the relevant piece up tomorrow?

Back in 2007 there were a number of serious incidents involving non-national offenders with serious criminal records (including rape, extortion etc) - I wrote to the then Justice Minister Michael 'last Sting of a dying wasp' McDowell but sadly he was out of office a few weeks later and so all I had was the standard civil service holding letter. We cannot sleepwalk through this life and not expect serious consequences.

How about this as an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0210/1233867928861.html

Note that the deceased, also a non-national was jailed in July 1990 for the rape of an underage female and for theft and hooliganism. He was released in 1994 but was returned to prison in 1995 to serve 11 years for robbery. What on earth was he doing in Ireland??

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm afraid that there is no point in arguing any further with you as you are clearly not au fait with what is going in the local papers - only last week there was one particular case of a non-national repeat offender in the Guardian. If you like I will put the relevant piece up tomorrow?

Back in 2007 there were a number of serious incidents involving non-national offenders with serious criminal records (including rape, extortion etc) - I wrote to the then Justice Minister Michael 'last Sting of a dying wasp' McDowell but sadly he was out of office a few weeks later and so all I had was the standard civil service holding letter. We cannot sleepwalk through this life and not expect serious consequences.

How about this as an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0210/1233867928861.html

Note that the deceased, also a non-national was jailed in July 1990 for the rape of an underage female and for theft and hooliganism. He was released in 1994 but was returned to prison in 1995 to serve 11 years for robbery. What on earth was he doing in Ireland??

Unfortunately I don't have any links to contributions made by my immigrant neighbours, as I said before, not newsworthy
You are right in one respect, there is no point arguing with me. I will never accept sensational newspaper reports over the evidence of my own eyes but I promise as soon as the Polish carpenter down the road has finished repairs to the door and floor of the community centre, I will personally supervise his being frogmarched to the quay in Rosslare. I'll even go to the local scumbags who burst the door in the first place for help in doing it.

Judgement Day

bmaxi wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't have any links to contributions made by my immigrant neighbours, as I said before, not newsworthy
You are right in one respect, there is no point arguing with me. I will never accept sensational newspaper reports over the evidence of my own eyes but I promise as soon as the Polish carpenter down the road has finished repairs to the door and floor of the community centre, I will personally supervise his being frogmarched to the quay in Rosslare. I'll even go to the local scumbags who burst the door in the first place for help in doing it.

And do you seriously suggest that that is what I am saying?

Oh and by the way I checked with a senior reporter in one of the local newspapers today and he confirmed my belief that all the court cases are reported - not just the 'sexy' ones.

I think people need to relax for a second, there are two unrelated issues at play here.

The first is the nature of the reports - Court reporters will only comment on those cases which they believe are newsworthy (read 'makes people go and buy the papers'). That is not to say that there aren't a large number of foreign nationals appearing in front of our courts, but I would want to see statistics from the courts on this matter. I will ask some people in this area if these stats exist.

Secondly is the nature of immigration in Ireland - this is one of the costs of the EU that we must put up with. We do appear to be lax in the checking of information who land here. I always recieve a much more thorough screening when travelling to the UK then I do when I return to Dublin. However, we gained tremendously over the past few years with the aid of foreign labour, and I would go as far to say that many people, both foreign and domestic, who live in this country and who have criminal convictions contribute to society now in the same manner that people with no convictions do.

Don't forget, that for every person (be they Irish or not) who makes the news as a repeat offender, there are many more people who have convictions and live normally now. Should we punish them (again?) for actions of an unconnected person?

MJ23

Why do people use "non-nationals"? They're foreigners. I've nothing against them, except the ones who cause trouble. They should be sent back to where they came from, and not be wasting our money by putting them up in jail.
Its the same as a person who is not a professional sports person, we dont say that they're "non-professional". They're amateurs.

Squiggle

I've never understood the term non-national myself. We are all from some country so I would have thought foreign national was the correct term. That aside I don't see the point in general in mentioning a persons nationality in court reports in papers. I object to trouble makers because of what they do not because of where they're from.

MJ23

MJ23 wrote: »

Why do people use "non-nationals"? They're foreigners. I've nothing against them, except the ones who cause trouble. They should be sent back to where they came from, and not be wasting our money by putting them up in jail.
Its the same as a person who is not a professional sports person, we dont say that they're "non-professional". They're amateurs.

One can be foreign and not be a non national. For example, people with dual citizenship.

Bearhunter

I think you're all missing the point a bit here. The government CAN'T "send them back where they came from". The have freedom of movement within the EU and can move where they like. Short of leaving the EU (and the country is in no condition to even contemplate that), it looks like you'll just have to put up with it.

And with regards to the original post, that list of offences is possibly the most minor crime wave I've ever seen. Assuming 4 and 5 are the same bloke (I wasn't aware there was an offence of being drunk and unable to remember an "incident" - if there is it's the most under-policed offence on the statute books), you have five petty crimes (all punishable by fines rather than prison), four of them drink-related. Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

Drummerboy08

Bearhunter wrote: »

Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

Lol :pac:

Judgement Day

Bearhunter wrote: »

I think you're all missing the point a bit here. The government CAN'T "send them back where they came from". The have freedom of movement within the EU and can move where they like. Short of leaving the EU (and the country is in no condition to even contemplate that), it looks like you'll just have to put up with it.

And with regards to the original post, that list of offences is possibly the most minor crime wave I've ever seen. Assuming 4 and 5 are the same bloke (I wasn't aware there was an offence of being drunk and unable to remember an "incident" - if there is it's the most under-policed offence on the statute books), you have five petty crimes (all punishable by fines rather than prison), four of them drink-related. Sounds like they're integrating perfectly well to Enniscorthy.

No I'm not missing any point - I am raising an issue that concerns me and I am well aware that the 'wonderful' EU gives people the freedom to roam about Europe uncontrolled and I for one want the law changed. We have exemptions from all sorts of other things that the government don't approve of so why not proper border controls? Just in whose interest is it, apart from drug dealers and international terrorists, that we have ineffective border controls? Your point about a crime wave is hilarious - I wasn't suggesting a crime wave I was just quoting some court reports from the local newspaper - there will be more in tomorrow's papers and you may rest assured that they will be posted here! As for integrating well into Enniscorthy, you make a valid point, as of all the places I have ever lived this town has a disproportionately high number of scumbags.

Bearhunter

Well good luck with getting the Government to start lobbying the EU to repeal freedom of movement. And I'd be against it if they did; I think "foreigners" contribute more to the country than they take from it and are a welcome addition to what was for so long a homogenous population. Secondly, freedom of movement was introduced because we were all one community - barring people from entering would be like banning Corkmen from Wexford (a pleasant thought, admittedly). A German could move freely within the EU as could an Irishman, that was the whole point, making it easier to work and do business with each other.
Putting restrictions on those with criminal records is too complicated. Where do you draw the line? One term of imprisonment? Total number of years behind bars? How then do you accommodate the different sentences in different jurisdictions? You could get a ten stretch for murder in Germany, for example, and get the same in Hungary for burglary, say. Which is the better person? And if you decide that anyone with 10 years' prison behind them is unwelcome, then what of the idea that once the sentence is served, the debt to society is paid? How long do you keep punishing them for?
Perhaps if the communities they move into make it clear that they do not tolerate petty crime (or any other sort of crime) they will either move on or assimilate. But Irish communities can't do that in all conscience, really, can they? The blind eye, the backhander and the nixer mentality don't exactly leave us whiter than white, if you'll excuse the phrase. The hook and the chancer are celebrated in Ireland.
Frankly, given the amount of crimes that are associated with alcohol, wouldn't it be easier to simply better enforce the laws around the sale and supply of liquor?

Judgement Day

Bearhunter I have had enough dealings with politicians down the years to know that they are not worth a ........te and I have better things to do with my remaining years on the planet. That said it does not alter certain basic facts such as the need for proper border controls - the situation where you have one mobile unit for scanning trucks for drugs/stowaways etc and it rotates between Dublin and Rosslare (with its movements monitored by criminals) is a case in point. What are we waiting for - our own 9/11 - before we wake up? I'm sorry for wandering way off topic but it is all part of the same general problem of not knowing/caring who enters our country.

Bearhunter

Fair enough, JD. I don't live in Ireland anymore anyway, but it seems to me that the walls came down around the same time everyone decided that rampant wealth-accumulation was the be-all and end-all of life. It looks from here as though the Government stopped doing most of what it's supposed to do and concentrated on being a big, more expensive version of the IDA, getting more businesses into Ireland and to hell with the mundane neccessities of running a country like maintaining infrastructure, manning the borders and putting a few quid by for a rainy day.

Anyway, this has been a good debate over the past four pages. Nice to get genuine debate in cyberspace, rather than the usual descent into ad hominem attack and personal abuse after six posts. What a pleasant relief. All the best.

bmaxi

Judgement Day wrote: »

And do you seriously suggest that that is what I am saying?

Oh and by the way I checked with a senior reporter in one of the local newspapers today and he confirmed my belief that all the court cases are reported - not just the 'sexy' ones.

Over the years I've realised that what you say doesn't matter a damn, it's what others infer from what you say.
My point, from the outset has been that newspapers are only interested in a good story, they are not interested in striking a balance.
"Fcukers coming over here causing trouble, taking our jobs and our women". The first time I heard sentiments like that was in London in the 1960s, in the "No blacks, no Irish" era. I was never in trouble, I came home and married an Irish girl, I had friends of all races and religions. In my experience the sentiment was not widespread among the English native population but if the media were to be believed, then the city was under siege.
The result of all this was ghettoisation and we would do well to take the example of our neighbours to account before going down that road.
Whether we like it or not, these people are here for the long term and, IMO, are a welcome addition for the most part. I don't see what good can be served by demonising whole sections of the community for the misdeeds of a few, just to sell a few newspapers.

Bearhunter

@ Bmaxi: I see your point. And it reminds me of something I heard a few years back about the famously "Little England" minded Daily Mail: The definition of a moral dilemma for DM readers would be if illegal immigrants started lynching paedophiles. Looks like the Irish press is going that way too.

Judgement Day

Bearhunter wrote: »

@ Bmaxi: I see your point. And it reminds me of something I heard a few years back about the famously "Little England" minded Daily Mail: The definition of a moral dilemma for DM readers would be if illegal immigrants started lynching paedophiles. Looks like the Irish press is going that way too.

I was hoping to post some more court reports from today's local papers but there is a shortage of interesting cases - (non-national and native alike) - a temporary blip I'm sure. The truth of it is that court cases and photographs of everybody in the county concerned have been the staple diet of local newspapers since time in memoriam. That said it does not take away from my previous points. Incidentally, I have only once in my life that I can recall bought a tabloid newspaper (and that's was for coverage of Botham's Ashes in 1981?) I don't read any Irish or British newspapers except the (ho,ho,ho!!) paper of record in the local library. I am an old fart, just past 50, and my chief concern is for the type of country my very young kids are growing up in. I have no problem with immigration provided it is properly regulated and have friends of many different races/creeds.

Bearhunter

"I don't read any Irish or British newspapers except the (ho,ho,ho!!) paper of record"

Cripes, I think we're all in a bit of trouble if the Ache-Oh is the paper of record. Must be an absolute breeze being editor of that publication.
And I hear what you're saying about the country your kids are growing up in. I'm in my 40s and left 20 years ago. I realise now that I grew up in a completely different country to the one I visited in October.