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Time to arm the guards with guns?

13

Comments

  • #62
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Faithless wrote: »
    What we need to do is get the army on the streets. None of this intimidating business, but proper attire. Leave the muckers on the beat to patrol the motorways and check for tax and insurance while the military can tackle serious crime with bazooka's.

    I know your posting this 'tongue in cheek', however when we had a loyalist threat to Dublin the army routinely manned check points with AGS.

    Our Defence Forces also have vast experience in unarmed armed elements from as far away as East Timor, Liberia, Chad, Eritra, Kosovo to name but a few.

    The army also know how to properly set up and man an armed checkpoint.

    Unfortunetly with cut back in numbers our Defence Forces probably don't have the personnel to deploy anyway.


  • #63
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Charles Rich Moth wrote: »
    I know your posting this 'tongue in cheek', however when we had a loyalist threat to Dublin the army routinely manned check points with AGS.

    Our Defence Forces also have vast experience in unarmed armed elements from as far away as East Timor, Liberia, Chad, Eritra, Kosovo to name but a few.

    The army also know how to properly set up and man an armed checkpoint.

    Unfortunetly with cut back in numbers our Defence Forces probably don't have the personnel to deploy anyway.

    Possibly, but not definitely.

    When KFOR ends this summer, alot of Infantry Units will have a good few bodies back.

    Conducting VCP's in target areas wouldn't be too much of a strain on manpower. It'd never happen though, the Government wouldn't have the bottle to try it.


  • #64
    Faithless
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Faithless


    Charles Rich Moth wrote: »
    I know your posting this 'tongue in cheek', however when we had a loyalist threat to Dublin the army routinely manned check points with AGS.

    Our Defence Forces also have vast experience in unarmed armed elements from as far away as East Timor, Liberia, Chad, Eritra, Kosovo to name but a few.

    The army also know how to properly set up and man an armed checkpoint.

    Unfortunetly with cut back in numbers our Defence Forces probably don't have the personnel to deploy anyway.

    The Military on the streets would only help the situation regarding petty theft and serious crime.

    They have numerous skills, qualities and experience and may even intimidate youngsters into avoiding stupid on the second decisions.


  • #65
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    In fairness, alot of people have given the reason that arming regular beat Gardaí will somehow stop Gangland shootings and get these scum of the streets...???

    Am I missing something?

    Regular Gardaí are not going to solve this on their own. On a community level maybe, but is the elite units and detectives who gather evidence and take these n*bs down.

    How would arming Gardaí put an end to the recent spate of stabbings and gangland murders for instance?


  • #66
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    donvito99 wrote: »

    How would arming Gardaí put an end to the recent spate of stabbings and gangland murders for instance?

    Just let 'em pick each other off, I say. No need for the guards to be getting involved.


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  • #67
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Just let 'em pick each other off, I say. No need for the guards to be getting involved.

    Yeah!

    I mean, it's not like any innocent people were killed during these little gangland "wars".


  • #68
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Poccington wrote: »
    Yeah!

    I mean, it's not like any innocent people were killed during these little gangland "wars".


    Everybody is guilty of something.


  • #69
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Everybody is guilty of something.

    Even Jesus? :(


  • #70
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    donvito99 wrote: »
    In fairness, alot of people have given the reason that arming regular beat Gardaí will somehow stop Gangland shootings and get these scum of the streets...???
    I think the implication is to have guns and to use them to eliminate a very violent threat when it presents itself, without that court, short sentence, repeat offense track we are currently on.

    I'm not on that camp, so if I am misreading, I'd like clarifying on it myself. I feel it necessary to reiterate my stance; high powered tranq darts is an idea I think could be implemented with success. In fact, I think such a measure could work very well for home protection.


  • #71
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    donvito99 wrote: »

    How would arming Gardaí put an end to the recent spate of stabbings and gangland murders for instance?


    Personally I don't advocate arming AGS, or at least the lad or girl on the beat.

    But I think what people are expressing is is their insecurities, ie I think the ordinary guy on the street looks to the police as their first line of security, and more & more they see a weakened AGS.

    They see AGS without the political support you need to effectively police and protect us.

    In short, I think people see a very thin & weak blue line protecting us, and it frightens them.

    I think robust policy must start from the very stop, and the people at the top are failing the ordinary member of AGS and the general public.


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  • #72
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Poccington wrote: »
    Even Jesus? :(

    If he was a real martyr, he would have died quietly & unassumingly, but he had to go out with a big, flashy, show-off end, so Jesus is not only guilty of pride, but is also guilty for making catholics feeeling guilty about him dying for their sins.


  • #73
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Faithless wrote: »
    The Military on the streets would only help the situation regarding petty theft and serious crime.

    Jesus no. This is the worst idea.


  • #74
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Jesus no. This is the worst idea.
    This is a popular stance. I'm not saying I'm the opposite, but its not exactly as if I feel strongly either way. Could you (and others) go into why it would be the worst idea ever? The military would be upholding the law, just as AGS do, so what is the huge difference? Figure I'm better off asking.


  • #75
    Antbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    I winced reading the responses to this. Introducing more guns into a country can never be good, big-picture wise. Ultimately, more people will be killed. I don't know how I'd suggest you combat the current gun crimes, but I certainly don't think it's worthy of bringing MORE guns in.

    And Jesus Christ no, to having the MILITARY sort things out.

    I'd be interested to know how many of you would support the death penalty too. But not for this thread.


  • #76
    Pushtrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Death Penalty Thread.


  • #77
    K-Ren
    Closed Accounts Posts: 357 ✭✭K-Ren


    What are quards and why do they need quns now?


  • #78
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    This is a popular stance. I'm not saying I'm the opposite, but its not exactly as if I feel strongly either way. Could you (and others) go into why it would be the worst idea ever? The military would be upholding the law, just as AGS do, so what is the huge difference? Figure I'm better off asking.

    If this held true we could also use the AGS to bolster Irish forces abroad, i mean what's the huge difference? Amirite?

    We have an army to protect our borders and nation from perceived threats, our police force is to uphold and enforce the law within our borders, these are two very different jobs and in just the same way we can't replace our soldiers with policemen, we can't replace our policemen with soldiers. They are trained differently, you cannot sub one for the other for anything other than exceptional circumstances and even then soldiers cannot uphold the law because they don't know how.


  • #79
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    hooradiation wrote: »
    If this held true we could also use the AGS to bolster Irish forces abroad, i mean what's the huge difference? Amirite?

    We have an army to protect our borders and nation from perceived threats, our police force is to uphold and enforce the law within our borders, these are two very different jobs and in just the same way we can't replace our soldiers with policemen, we can't replace our policemen with soldiers. They are trained differently, you cannot sub one for the other for anything other than exceptional circumstances and even then soldiers cannot uphold the law because they don't know how.

    Just to clarify on the whole Defence Forces and AGS working together thing.

    The power of arrest/enforcing the law always rest with the member of AGS. The members of the Defence Forces that would be present are there in case things start going tits up. We're never in a position to enforce the law, merely protect the members of AGS that would be there.


  • #80
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,908 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Obviously there's a chance of him/her being shot, but do these rare incidents justify arming the whole force, and sacrificing the principles that AGS stand by?

    I would wager that one's opinion on the matter would sway dramatically in one particular direction if that chance of getting shot is happening to you at that particular moment and time. I've been wearing a sidearm on my leg every day for the last six months. I've not needed it yet, but if I ever am in a situation it would be required, there is nothing else which will suffice at that moment and time.

    To paraphrase a line in the US, "When seconds count, your backup is only minutes away"

    What principle would be sacrificed? Does something happen to a Garda just because he might have a sidearm on his hip? Do you think that Belgian policemen are unapproachable, untrusted monsters out of touch with their population because they have a pistol?

    There are a number of factors to be considered before taking a decision to join the rest of the world in having armed police, but some ridiculous notion that police must abandon their methods just because they're now armed is silly. Next you'll say that they shouldn't have a radio because for decades they just relied on the population to tell them what was going on, and things have become impersonal.

    NTM


  • #81
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Absolutely not. When was the last time an unarmed garda needed a gun? If we arm our police force then the unarmed criminals will start to arm themselves to counter this.
    As opposed to the armed criminals you already have?
    Magnus wrote: »
    Pepper spray and tasers, yes. Guns, no.
    Because a Taser never killed anybody.
    Riddle101 wrote:
    A lot of Cops in America seem to be gun crazed lunatics who would shoot you for looking at them the wrong way. I would be afraid if it would be the same way over here after a while. But I do think the health of our Garda personel who do have a pretty tough and danerous job is a big concern. They need some way of arresting people other then using a Nightstick.
    This seemed somewhat relevant

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54

    The Perpetrator in this case, receive a single wound to the arm. After being fired on, easily, by 40 rounds of ammunition.

    Television has really distorted the truth about sidearm lethality. The real arm of the AGS would and is the ERU/SWAT equivalent, armed with true assault weapons, such as rifles and shotguns and full body armor. You wont see patrolmen trying to wage any gang wars with a 9mm pistol. Or for that matter, a Desert Eagle .450

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afzqnyxZxQM


    Armed patrolmen isnt going to replace the ERU. Nor does it replace SWAT. What it does though is provides that patrolman many more options in the line of duty: in particular, suppressing a suspect until backup can arrive. 99% of the time its all about pointing the gun to create the appropriate level of tension required to stop a suspect from running.

    Face it, if a Gard told me to Freeze, I'm more likely to run from him, than LA Beat. And in a scenario where I am armed and the Gard is armed, I am going to be infinitely more confident about pointing and aiming at the unarmed Gard.


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  • #82
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Next you'll say that they shouldn't have a radio because for decades they just relied on the population to tell them what was going on, and things have become impersonal.

    NTM

    last i checked a radio isn't something that could kill several people in quick succession if the user felt like it.

    Less shitty strawmen, please.


  • #83
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Charles Rich Moth wrote: »
    Personally I don't advocate arming AGS, or at least the lad or girl on the beat.

    But I think what people are expressing is is their insecurities, ie I think the ordinary guy on the street looks to the police as their first line of security, and more & more they see a weakened AGS.

    They see AGS without the political support you need to effectively police and protect us.

    In short, I think people see a very thin & weak blue line protecting us, and it frightens them.

    I think robust policy must start from the very stop, and the people at the top are failing the ordinary member of AGS and the general public.

    Good point. I'd say that, yes, people do feel vulnerable with regards to the current model, but, IMO, tis a win/lose situation.

    Ie. you lose the friendly, easy to approach Garda, in favour of a tough, no nonsense cop.


  • #84
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Pushtrak wrote: »
    high powered tranq darts is an idea I think could be implemented with success. In fact, I think such a measure could work very well for home protection.

    Or a tazer, which is used by the ERU and RSU.


  • #85
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I would wager that one's opinion on the matter would sway dramatically in one particular direction if that chance of getting shot is happening to you at that particular moment and time. I've been wearing a sidearm on my leg every day for the last six months. I've not needed it yet, but if I ever am in a situation it would be required, there is nothing else which will suffice at that moment and time.

    To paraphrase a line in the US, "When seconds count, your backup is only minutes away"

    What principle would be sacrificed? Does something happen to a Garda just because he might have a sidearm on his hip? Do you think that Belgian policemen are unapproachable, untrusted monsters out of touch with their population because they have a pistol?

    There are a number of factors to be considered before taking a decision to join the rest of the world in having armed police, but some ridiculous notion that police must abandon their methods just because they're now armed is silly. Next you'll say that they shouldn't have a radio because for decades they just relied on the population to tell them what was going on, and things have become impersonal.

    NTM

    I understand where you're coming from, but what I was responding to was that arming beat Gardaí would not effect gangland murders and/or stabbings etc, which some posters have vouched to arm the Gardaí for.

    With regards to the approachability of an officer with a firearm, IMO, it is damaged. To the ordinary Joe Soap like me, who has never handled a firearm and has no idea what implications they have, a gun = whoa! Is he Guarding something? Is he on the lookout for someone? I better not bother him.


  • #86
    Hank_Jones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Hank_Jones


    We don't have to give them guns, we just need a proper garda unit that has free reign to deal with the scumbag drug dealers.
    Other than that I don't think we need guns, I know a few gardai and if they had guns they would probably trip over them, clumsy bunch.

    Somewhat bumbling.
    I mean that in the kindest possible way.

    The majority of gardai are good at what they do, but I certainly feel that in a country where guns aren't widely available then they certainly shouldn't have them. If they did get them all that would mean is that we would be bringing more guns into the country and I don't think anyone wants that.


  • #87
    ascanbe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    All the 'tough on crime' types on here are wussies.
    I say we should arrange for a willing country to Nuke us; wipe out the entire population.
    Problem solved; no more crime.
    Of course the PC hand-wringers probably won't agree with this, with their 'liberal' ideas of 'human-rights'.


  • #88
    sean corcoran
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 653 ✭✭✭sean corcoran


    what are the unarmed gardai supposed to do if they are faced with an armed criminal? hit them with a maglight? the rest of europe have armed police and their crime rate is lower because of this of course we should arm police. i know i would feel safer walking around dublin.


  • #89
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    ascanbe wrote: »
    All the 'tough on crime' types on here are wussies.
    I say we should arrange for a willing country to Nuke us; wipe out the entire population.
    Problem solved; no more crime.
    Of course the PC hand-wringers probably won't agree with this, with their 'liberal' ideas of 'human-rights'.

    Funny man, funny man...am I right?!


  • #90
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Good point. I'd say that, yes, people do feel vulnerable with regards to the current model, but, IMO, tis a win/lose situation.

    Ie. you lose the friendly, easy to approach Garda, in favour of a tough, no nonsense cop.
    I dunno, I've never been apprehensive about approaching Charleston City Police, even in one situation just to have a conversation. And the other time to ask if they'd Breathalyze me (they would not :()

    Thats not to say the Officer that pulled me over for speeding wasn't quite Terse. This had nothing to do with his Firearm however.

    Image (3MB)
    The fact is you think about it little when a Cop is present. They have an entire Bat Belt full of gadgets, and a black belt of black gadgets against a black uniform, its very easy for the public to forget one of those pieces is a gun at all. It just becomes another piece of equipment, like the radio, or Cuff-pouch. Not exactly Irish Banking Escorts you see rolling into Ennis carrying Steyr Aug carbines.


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  • #91
    ascanbe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Funny man, funny man...am I right?!

    The fact that you can't be entirely sure, tells you all you need know about many of the threads like this on AH.


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