Google prepared to Pull out of China, following coordinated Cyber Attack

DeVore · 15-01-2010 04:19PM

We dont block China any more, what we do is rate limit ips from there and if we get too much traffic from one ip in too short a time, we block that IP.

by the way, I wouldnt hold up Ireland as a shining light for freedom of speech. We have some of the most draconian press laws in the world. In china if you get up on a soapbox and criticise things, they will shoot you. In Ireland, they shoot the soapbox maker. Pretty soon, every soapbox maker is either out of business, dead, or scared.

DeV.

Thirdfox · 15-01-2010 04:32PM

Don't forget the crazy new blasphemy law here in Ireland (though it probably is constitutionally required). Should have tacked a constitutional amendment vote on to the Lisbon referendum but that's a whole separate issue.

And in a sign of progressiveness the Chinese government is trialling lethal injections now! /sarcasm (I'm not a fan of the death penalty either).

Still better than Japan and the hangman's noose

MackDeToaster · 15-01-2010 04:33PM

Moriarty wrote: »

If this surprises you, how do you think search warrants are carried out for the likes of phone companies, exactly?

Erm, they run a search on their databases and extract what info they can from those ? Specialised intercept systems sound a lot more ominous tho.

Moriarty · 15-01-2010 05:02PM

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Erm, they run a search on their databases and extract what info they can from those ? Specialised intercept systems sound a lot more ominous tho.

I'd suggest that you google(!) for LI or Lawful Intercept devices. It sounds like you'll be surprised at just how common they are and the features they give to the service provider and the relevant law enforcement agencies that interface with them. Any large communications carrier of any sort will have similar devices, both abroad and here in wee ol' Ireland.

serfboard · 15-01-2010 05:22PM

China is currently giving the two fingers to the rest of the world. They don't care about Google or anyone else.

SLUSK wrote: »

Well Google did it because their own corporate interests were targeted, they did not do it for any so called humanitarian reasons, otherwise they would have never gone to China in the first place.

Agree. One has to think that this (mooted) move by Google stinks of a fairly large amount of hypocrisy.

China is now flexing its muscles. The rest of the world will come to rue its decision to outsource its manufacturing to an undemocratic regime.

Overheal · 15-01-2010 05:34PM

Biggins wrote: »

Very Informative article: New York Times...

The article can be found and continues for those interested, HERE.

Saw this here: http://gizmodo.com/5449037/google-hacked-the-chinese-hackers-right-back

Counter-Terrorists Win :pac:

It "began a secret counteroffensive," breaking into a computer in Taiwan, gathering evidence the attacks originated from mainland China, possibly orchestrated by the government.

Google's delta force found evidence that the hackers had attacked 33 other companies, like Adobe, and that the onslaught actually came from China, not Taiwan. More to the point, "much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them."

Unfortunately, Google can't prove the Chinese government's involvement 100 percent, which is why the Obama administration is pussy-footing around the issue.

DeVore · 15-01-2010 05:46PM

Mind you.... Google has handed over quite a bit of personal data and continues to do so, to the American government willingly...

I'm glad to see China get this public slap in the face but the US are just as bad.

DeV.

Joey the lips · 15-01-2010 05:50PM

DeVore wrote: »

Mind you.... Google has handed over quite a bit of personal data and continues to do so, to the American government willingly...

I'm glad to see China get this public slap in the face but the US are just as bad.

DeV.

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

ei.sdraob · 15-01-2010 06:08PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

so the evils of one nation excuses the greater evils of another nation?

if a person A shoots a person its ok for person B to shoot 10 people??

instead of answering why your beloved socialist regimes are so utterly messed up you point the fingers at others and say they are messed up too so that excuses <insert JoeTheLips admired socialist utopia here>

Ireland is not perfect (See blasphemy laws) but were still damn better of than average Chinese when it comes to having freedoms

Overheal · 15-01-2010 06:11PM

Theres a significant difference though, in that its the United States getting google information from google over the table so to speak. Britain same story. There is an agreement (in US Law, See USA patriot act). Here, you had China forcibly stealing information from American and European countries with no prior consent to do so and through the use of malicious intrusion, outside of any rule of law.

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

Well yes. The Patriot Act is a deeply flawed beast in many respects, but this is more to do with the handling of the information not the gathering of it. Putting children on terrorist watchlists because a computer program written ad hoc by the CIA processed some minor detail about the kid as being suspicious, etc. etc.

For the most part the Govt doesnt go gathering information for the hell of it. To my knowledge they do not go looking at myspace and facebook to see if their Marine Linguists are homosexuals, though I could be wrong.

MackDeToaster · 15-01-2010 06:20PM

Moriarty wrote: »

I'd suggest that you google(!) for LI or Lawful Intercept devices. It sounds like you'll be surprised at just how common they are and the features they give to the service provider and the relevant law enforcement agencies that interface with them. Any large communications carrier of any sort will have similar devices, both abroad and here in wee ol' Ireland.

I'm well aware of the legislation here and abroad, but I hadn't thought Google had actually gone down the road of installing specific devices yet. I use Jondo a lot, plus scroogle, noscript, betterprivacy etc etc, but the looks like I'll just have to start using jondo fulltime.

This is a good site for security info, as well as the Reg and similar... http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=39

Tinfoil hat on - let the arms race begin in earnest !

Joey the lips · 15-01-2010 06:30PM

Overheal wrote: »

Theres a significant difference though, in that its the United States getting google information from google over the table so to speak. Britain same story. There is an agreement (in US Law, See USA patriot act). Here, you had China forcibly stealing information from American and European countries with no prior consent to do so and through the use of malicious intrusion, outside of any rule of law.Well yes. The Patriot Act is a deeply flawed beast in many respects, but this is more to do with the handling of the information not the gathering of it. Putting children on terrorist watchlists because a computer program written ad hoc by the CIA processed some minor detail about the kid as being suspicious, etc. etc.

For the most part the Govt doesnt go gathering information for the hell of it. To my knowledge they do not go looking at myspace and facebook to see if their Marine Linguists are homosexuals, though I could be wrong.

I agree but is there information being handed over that we know off and is there information we dont know off. Granted we can speculate and we will never leave home but I believe that all goverments gather information. Its just a matter what is done with that information

For example... Many moons ago if you were members of certain political parties in ireland you were photographed going in and out of meetings(These groups were legal) now I dont know many people who were politically active that were arrested but was this an intimidation method....

For example america will not arrest you but if you know that america is gathering information on anyone who visits cuba would this put you off visiting cuba. Especially if your american.

There is no doubt the world has relied on the chinese for so long when it comes to money and economics. I remember over 30 years ago my toys saying made in hong kong. As anyone knows hong kong is the holding company for goods made in china and sold to the world.

I would tend to believe these attacks more if information was actually actued upon. I commend google for there security but honestly....

How do you really know who is wagging the dog....

Are we just going with googles explination because they wear our team colours.

How would we feel about google if they pulled out of ireland and relocated to tiwan( granted highly unlikely as they are information and not product based)

The Corinthian · 15-01-2010 07:02PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so the evils of one nation excuses the greater evils of another nation?

No, but it does demonstrate the futility of attempting to seek the higher moral ground in a World of Realpolitik.

Thirdfox · 15-01-2010 07:08PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ireland is not perfect (See blasphemy laws) but were still damn better of than average Chinese when it comes to having freedoms

Undoubtedly so, but the counterpoint being, has the standard of living (encompassing the political, social, economic well-being etc.) of a Chinese person improved more in the last 40 years than compared to say the average Irish or American over that time period? It'd be very hard to deny that massive improvements have taken place - 300 million people lifted out of poverty (that's the population of the US) over these last few decades.

Of course, as Dublin Bus(?) says - a lot done, a lot more to do. Someday porn will be freely available on the Chinese net as well as harsh criticism of governmental leaders (and from my personal viewpoint as a person involved with law I'm waiting for the first case where a citizen uses the Constitution of China to sue the government - may be waiting some time...) But comparing China now with 40 years ago (when it was "off with your head" quite literally if you dared to speak against Mao) to now when nouveau artists can have statues of a headless Mao commissioned one has to (grudgingly?) admit that the situation has improved for hundreds of millions of people.

Another example - the Tang Shan earthquake some 34 years ago killed 242,000 people and the government at the time not only refused outside aid but tried to cover up the disaster from the rest of China.

The Si Chuan earthquake of 08 saw the government accept aid even from their bitter rival "renegade province" Taiwan and dispatching journalists to document the rescue effort. (Journalists who were subsequently removed once they started investigating shoddy construction in schools).

If you say that China's 1st generation human rights improvement (civil/political) isn't improving at a fast enough pace I'd be inclined to agree. But one must remember that political developments take time, especially for a civilisation that has had almost 5000 years of strong, central command and governance.

Or should we take John Bolton's (US envoy to the UN) advice about what to do about Iraq - "give them a copy of the Federalist Papers and say good luck with that".

Joey the lips wrote: »

How would we feel about google if they pulled out of ireland and relocated to tiwan( granted highly unlikely as they are information and not product based)

Taiwan has a thriving IT industry I believe...but the current status of the island is kinda (politically not legally) separate to that of mainland China (a whole different can of worms

)

Biggins · 16-01-2010 12:03AM

Further crack down on liberties in the wake of Google lifting their Chinese filters:

Friday January 15 2010

China has started scanning text messages for inappropriate content representing the latest move in the country’s increasing censorship.
Customers of China’s two largest mobile phone networks, China Mobile and China Unicom, have had their text-messaging service blocked after sending risqué texts, according to the state media.
It comes as the country is embroiled in a row with Google over cyber attacks. On Tuesday the internet giant, said it may quit China because of concerns about the country’s recent increase in censorship.

The Global Times, a government-run newspaper, said “everyone seems to be under watch”. Last year, the government vowed to suppress pornography on the internet and has now extended its campaign to mobile phones.
China Mobile is the world’s biggest mobile phone company, with over 508 million customers. Its network handles 1.7 billion text messages a day.
The latest development implies that Chinese censors have moved beyond monitoring of the internet and are now also spying on the country’s vast network of phones.

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Google prepared to Pull out of China, following coordinated Cyber Attack

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