Google prepared to Pull out of China, following coordinated Cyber Attack

Overheal

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html

A new approach to China

1/12/2010 03:00:00 PM
Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users' computers.

We have already used information gained from this attack to make infrastructure and architectural improvements that enhance security for Google and for our users. In terms of individual users, we would advise people to deploy reputable anti-virus and anti-spyware programs on their computers, to install patches for their operating systems and to update their web browsers. Always be cautious when clicking on links appearing in instant messages and emails, or when asked to share personal information like passwords online. You can read more here about our cyber-security recommendations. People wanting to learn more about these kinds of attacks can read this U.S. government report (PDF), Nart Villeneuve's blog and this presentation on the GhostNet spying incident.

We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech. In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. Indeed, this great nation is at the heart of much economic progress and development in the world today.

We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China."

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. We are committed to working responsibly to resolve the very difficult issues raised.

Posted by David Drummond, SVP, Corporate Development and Chief Legal Officer [Google]

I just caught Dave live on the Kudlow Report, CNBC.

The news is pretty strong stuff. So far there has been no comment from the Chinese Government. Similarly, its too early to implicate or exonerate the Chinese Government from endorsing this attack, against Chinese Human Rights Activists. According to David Drummond, Google was successful at preventing the hack, which targeted email accounts [And other Companies besides Google] in China, Europe and the United States, of human Rights Activists [Or HR empathetic Companies]. Only 2 accounts total were compromised, and even then, the perpetrator was only able to see To, From, and Subject; not the content of these emails.

Google is preparing to engage in dialog with the Chinese Government following today's press release. As of yet there has been no response from the Chinese made public. Google's made it clear it would like to remain in China, but is fully prepared after this latest incident to completely withdraw all facilities and dedicated website associations (eg, Google.cn).

Drummond says its too soon, but it leaves me uneasy and I at least suspect the Chinese Government of Endorsing or operating the attack. The Chinese dont have a Stellar track record with Rights of any kind. I keep thinking of Taiwan and Tibet, also. China is a lucrative economic opportunity, but at what point should multinationals abandon the Dollar/Euro and adopt Morals? Made in China my ass.

Agent J

Google have just fired a rather large shot accross the Chinese bow.

How China reacts will be very interesting.... They will not want Google to allow unrestricted access on the other hand if they act too heavy handed they may scare off further outside investment.

Does China care though?

Has Google finally read its own stuff about "not being evil?"


We live in Interesting times

Nehaxak

Restored a lot of faith in Google for me with the actions they've taken, fair play to them and I hope they stand strong.

Overheal

Nehaxak wrote: »

Restored a lot of faith in Google for me with the actions they've taken, fair play to them and I hope they stand strong.

If I may: what caused your faith to falter in Google?

I thought Google was getting a little too conglomerate myself... did you know it recently bought (or is in the process of, iirc) the rights to Buy and Sell Energy on the US Grid? Madness. But I cant think of anything thats made me think, Negatively or Poorly, of the Company.

ei.sdraob

Im waiting for our resident socialist dictatorship admiring (ahem parallel Venezuela thread ) boardsies who think China is somehow an example of socialistic success to comment that Google are a CIA outlet and deserve what they got from the "revolutionary" hackers

anyways as someone who has to manage servers for a living, i sympathize as the amount of "funny activity" that originates from Chinese ip address ranges is rather disturbing, and blocking them is not an option since that would affect people who have nothing to do with them, tho the attacks i encountered are mostly of the bruteforce category

2040

Overheal wrote: »

If I may: what caused your faith to falter in Google?

I thought Google was getting a little too conglomerate myself... did you know it recently bought (or is in the process of, iirc) the rights to Buy and Sell Energy on the US Grid? Madness. But I cant think of anything thats made me think, Negatively or Poorly, of the Company.

You can't criticise a company for being successful. From what i can see Google is an atypically benign and principled company. Contrast this with..

• AOL giving private information of a subscriber to the US military proving his homosexuality, thus getting him kicked out of the military.
  
• Yahoo pandering to the French Courts and betraying their own principles of freedom of expression.

If google were to do a cost/benefit analysis on doing business in China, they'd definitely see that it's profitable. Most companies wouldn't be too bothered by censorship of this kind. One has to be impressed with the whole google ethos. Quite a responsible organisation.

ei.sdraob

lets not forget the Chinese government has previously redirected all traffic going to Google to Google's Chinese competitor Baidu

http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/18/cyberwar-china-declares-war-on-western-search-sites/

Nehaxak

Overheal wrote: »

If I may: what caused your faith to falter in Google?

More or less related to the China saga tbh and I'm glad they're finally taking some sort of stand against it, albeit having their hand somewhat forced to do so. Also not 100% happy with the security and retention of data, along with stories (mostly conspiracy related tbh) of allowing interception of emails for US authorities' usage. Not that I've anything to hide, I just like my own privacy and why I run my own secure email server, when I'd really prefer to just use google

uglyjohn

its great to see a company sticking by its principles like this but lets not get carried away.
not to sound pessimistic but human rights issues, tibet, pollution and corrupt government etc havent stopped companies investing in china to save a few euro, why would it make them up and leave now?

Google leaving would be bad press for China but i hardly think the Chinese government will be upset about it. i dont know anything about Baidu as mentioned earlier but i imagine the Chinese government would prefer to have google out of the picture completely so everyone uses the Glorious Peoples Search Engine. they can censor everything themselves and give themselves complete access to email accounts.

Lockstep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Im waiting for our resident socialist dictatorship admiring (ahem parallel Venezuela thread ) boardsies who think China is somehow an example of socialistic success to comment that Google are a CIA outlet and deserve what they got from the "revolutionary" hackers

In fairness now, you'll find few socialists who are supportive of China's bizarre mix of the capitalism and socialism.

Joey the lips

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/16/cnet.google.tiananmen.square/index.html


As the above article shows this is a very interesting and ongoing arguement. I cannot wait to see the outcome. There is 2 very interesting points worth considering in this

1. Google is labeling this as an attack on human rights. Many govts around the world gathers statisical information on people which would be considered human rights abuses including the us and its not the gathering of this information thats a problem but the using of it.

Most search engines in china are not based in homes but in university campus or internet cafe type environments. There is a far easier way to access personel information than attack google accouts. I would imagine this is more likely an attack by a gang of students on googles infrastructure than the chinese goverment. However change is slowly taking place.


2, Its a widlely reconised fact that any organisation including the likes of intel setting up in china has to share the rights to its products. Basically china is telling the world if you want to set up her we are going to copy your technology. You have to wonder is this a volley by google to protect there rights.

I am a big fan of google. I also love the way china does business. I cannot wait to see how this arguement progresses. As for google leaving china. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. In my opinion. I would love to see what google ends up saying... Can you imagine the HOLE this will put in google shares if it pulls out of china. Nahh I think money talks and google is just talking sales.

syklops

There has been a cyber war going on between China, Russia, Japan and America for a few years now. Recently, a new tactic has been employed, and the concept behind it is: "The one thing more damaging to a company than being hacked, is the world believing they hacked someone else".

This has been employed in numerous attacks across a number of states. Even our fair isle has been a victim of such an attack. A web defacement of a government organisation's website, with chinese charachters calling japan and japanese people names but the IP address originating in eastern europe.

I am not saying that what google has reported is untrue, I am just pointing out that there may be more to this attack than meets the eye. If the perpetrators were capable of attempting an attack as sophisticated as the report says, then they would also be capable of spoofing or masking the IP address of the attack to make it appear as though it originated in China.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/16/cnet.google.tiananmen.square/index.html


As the above article shows this is a very interesting and ongoing arguement. I cannot wait to see the outcome. There is 2 very interesting points worth considering in this

1. Google is labeling this as an attack on human rights. Many govts around the world gathers statisical information on people which would be considered human rights abuses including the us and its not the gathering of this information thats a problem but the using of it.

Most search engines in china are not based in homes but in university campus or internet cafe type environments. There is a far easier way to access personel information than attack google accouts. I would imagine this is more likely an attack by a gang of students on googles infrastructure than the chinese goverment. However change is slowly taking place.


2, Its a widlely reconised fact that any organisation including the likes of intel setting up in china has to share the rights to its products. Basically china is telling the world if you want to set up her we are going to copy your technology. You have to wonder is this a volley by google to protect there rights.

I am a big fan of google. I also love the way china does business. I cannot wait to see how this arguement progresses. As for google leaving china. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. In my opinion. I would love to see what google ends up saying... Can you imagine the HOLE this will put in google shares if it pulls out of china. Nahh I think money talks and google is just talking sales.

who needs those pesky things called human rights and private property
when we can all convert and live in a "socialist" paradise run by infallible men


edit: only took you 6 posts to show up

positron

I think Google leaving will hurt China indirectly. Google IS one of the most famous brand names in the world, and everyone looks to be as rich and successful as them. And if China operates in such a way that makes Google quit the country for business and/or moral reasons, many firms around the world will think twice about doing business in China.

Although, having said that, the rest of world is in a situation that it can not function without China. So Google leaving is not going to change the world dramatically, but it will certainly hurt China.

Probably a golden opportunity for India to gain business..!

Joey the lips

positron wrote: »

I think Google leaving will hurt China indirectly. Google IS one of the most famous brand names in the world, and everyone looks to be as rich and successful as them. And if China operates in such a way that makes Google quit the country for business and/or moral reasons, many firms around the world will think twice about doing business in China.

Although, having said that, the rest of world is in a situation that it can not function without China. So Google leaving is not going to change the world dramatically, but it will certainly hurt China.

Probably a golden opportunity for India to gain business..!

Google choose china because of the millions of people that will increase its share value. China did not choose google and tbh if google wanted to pull of of china it would. Its all about shareholder value for google...

Your right.. The world cannot function without china. A point also made by david mc williams

SLUSK

Well Google did it because their own corporate interests were targeted, they did not do it for any so called humanitarian reasons, otherwise they would have never gone to China in the first place.

I wonder if the people in China can read this message on the blog, when I was in Shanghai a few months in the spring of 2005 blogspot was censored and you could not reach it unless going through a proxy.

Cuddlesworth

syklops wrote: »

I am not saying that what google has reported is untrue, I am just pointing out that there may be more to this attack than meets the eye. If the perpetrators were capable of attempting an attack as sophisticated as the report says, then they would also be capable of spoofing or masking the IP address of the attack to make it appear as though it originated in China.

Having said that, specifically targetting certain people which hold great interest to the Chinese government and the fact that Google do in fact have in their employment some of the best network engineers in the world would imply if they say it happened, it is certainly a possibility.

syklops

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Having said that, specifically targetting certain people which hold great interest to the Chinese government and the fact that Google do in fact have in their employment some of the best network engineers in the world would imply if they say it happened, it is certainly a possibility.

So do the US Airforce and the FSB.

ei.sdraob

http://i49.tinypic.com/2pqjpjb.jpg


(absolutely ginormous inline image changed to link by bonkey)

The Corinthian

SLUSK wrote: »

Well Google did it because their own corporate interests were targeted, they did not do it for any so called humanitarian reasons, otherwise they would have never gone to China in the first place.

Possibly. My guess is that it is one of those rare occasions when the business pragmatists and ideological idealists in the company shared common ground. You have to bare in mind that companies like Google may send out press releases with one voice, but the decision is rarely taken unanimously.

The ethical price was only part of the price tag associated with doing business in China. Financially they were spending a lot of money too, and they just were not getting the returns. Being hacked, allegedly by Chinese government sponsored groups, may well have been the final straw.

How big a part of the price tag, the whole human rights bit was, is another matter. But it's quite likely that it was a factor in their decision - how big is another matter.

Two interesting articles on the issue can presently be found in the Economist and the Reg.

Overheal

Well Google did it because their own corporate interests were targeted, they did not do it for any so called humanitarian reasons, otherwise they would have never gone to China in the first place.

Google went in there knowing it was Challenging but under the idea that they could do more good by going into the country and projecting their image and business philosophy (which revolves areound the freedom of information) rather than saying its Too Hard and not going at all.

I wonder if the people in China can read this message on the blog, when I was in Shanghai a few months in the spring of 2005 blogspot was censored and you could not reach it unless going through a proxy.

iirc less than a dozen Chinese IP Adresses are Whitelisted. The rest were blocked by Boards.ie quite a long time ago to combat spam.

Joey the lips

Overheal wrote: »

Google went in there knowing it was Challenging but under the idea that they could do more good by going into the country and projecting their image and business philosophy (which revolves areound the freedom of information) rather than saying its Too Hard and not going at all. iirc less than a dozen Chinese IP Adresses are Whitelisted. The rest were blocked by Boards.ie quite a long time ago to combat spam.

So boards.ie is censoring the chinese. Now that must be a juxtaposition of sorts or at least something to laugh at....

We are slanting the chinese(In a roundabout way) and unless they live in some other place than china they cannot defend themselves.....

:D:D:D

Anybody been watching googles share value.....;)

Thirdfox

I do know Baidu's share price has jumped 15% on the news

Though let's not forget, just a few days ago the Baidu search engine itself was hacked by the "Iranian Cyberarmy (sic)".

And here's the Chinese (Gov)'s take on the issue:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2010-01/14/content_12810212.htm

(for those who can't read Chinese, google translate helpfully deciphers the general meaning of the article )
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.xinhuanet.com%2Ffortune%2F2010-01%2F14%2Fcontent_12810212.htm&sl=zh-CN&tl=en

Interesting to see them mentioning the Google books IP infringement court case at the beginning too. Not so much mention of the censorship...

As someone who is generally in favour of letting China develop at its own pace I am not a fan of how the government deals with freedom of speech (understatement perhaps). Google leaving would be egg on face for Chinese officials but I can't but think how this will end positively for Google... more Westerners who dislike China/Chinese Gov practices will use the search engine? It is already dominant over here, it's in China where they are trying to usurp Baidu's position as top dog (currently 64% and 31% market share respectively).

Other firms may reconsider? Microsoft, Yahoo etc have issued their statements (well M$ at the very least) saying that Google's decision doesn't affect them.

And by going public before going to negotiations they've effectively stuck the two fingers up to the Chinese government and I cannot see how the two can reconcile. This would indicate that they are planning to leave rather than talk (perhaps there have been fruitless discussions on this matter in the past).

Here's an older BBC blog post that I found interesting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2010/01/googles_puzzling_logic.html

And keep an eye/ear out for the Stern Hu and Rio Tinto spying case...the case has been presented to the state prosecutor who will decide whether to bring a court case against the employees or not.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

So boards.ie is censoring the chinese. Now that must be a juxtaposition of sorts or at least something to laugh at....

We are slanting the chinese(In a roundabout way) and unless they live in some other place than china they cannot defend themselves.....

:D:D:D

Anybody been watching googles share value.....;)

those bloody capitalists how dare they say "no" to your socialist comrades

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

those bloody capitalists how dare they say "no" to your socialist comrades

I could not have put it better but I doubt boards comes under the defination of capilalist...

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

I could not have put it better but I doubt boards comes under the defination of capilalist...

actually i was referring to Google

but do remember that its those google ads on this site that pay for boards.ie servers, colocation etc (&rent+staff costs?) and earn Boards Ltd (company #319114) money

so i suppose it describes both site/companies in context of last few posts

if an Irish site with no users in a certain country but plenty of abuse (as i said earlier as an admin i can sympathise with situation) decides to block this certain countries ip ranges, whats wrong with that? last i checked we have this thing called choice in here, and freedom to act within law

i doubt it very much that Chinese citizens have a forum like this where they freely discuss politics (and just about anything else) thanks to censorship and control of media by their "socialist" overlords, for whom in past threads you have sang praise for, which is amusingly ironic

Thirdfox

Try Sina.com, one of the biggest discussion forums in China (and I guess the world).

http://forum.book.sina.com.cn/thread-2202732-1-1.html - this one in particular deals with the google threat (and again, one sees the difference in how the story is perceived by citizens from different viewpoints - economic vs. moral).

And I might hasten to add that we are quite often reminded that on boards.ie there is no freedom of speech /tongue-in-cheek :P and quite rightly so, it is a private forum after all.

I hope people don't confuse the two issues of censorship and alleged government hacking, they are serious though distinct points I think. Google wants to leave because they've been attacked by someone, and do not wish to continue operating under the laws of China - fair enough.

Here's the devil's advocate point of view though:

1. Censorship - pretty much all speech is controlled in some way. What people (US v. China) disagree on is to what level. If I were to type in "Child porn" into google image search I doubt that I will be able to access it even here in liberal old Ireland. For the Germans they have their qualms about the Swastika (which by the way in Asia is a openly used positive religious symbol) and other pro-Nazi materials.

So it's not a point of you do it or you don't...everyone censors, it's a matter of what level of censorship is acceptable. Something the Americans, Germans and Chinese don't agree on. And I don't agree particularly with the Chinese interpretation either. But the amount of posters I've seen stating that censorship is a BAD THING reminds me of how we chuckle when some Americans state that SOCIALIZED MEDICINE is a scary thought - we must understand that censorship is not always bad, like most things, it's never black and white.

2. Hacking allegations.

One of the reports (either the NYTimes, Economist or Newsweek) stated that Google found that the hacking originated in Taiwan and "within 2 seconds" discovered it can be traced to the mainland. The cynic in me would suppose that the Chinese cyberwarfare branch would take slightly more than a few seconds to be traced (I'd be kinda disappointed otherwise!) It is interesting that when they took over the server in Taiwan they discovered that commercial companies had been hacked and IP interests possibly taken. Perhaps some parties were interested in the US's new weapons? (Northrop Grumman was one party alleged affected).

As for governmental (US in particular) rebuke. It would be very naive to suggest intelligence agencies around the world do not monitor communications (and their own citizens - NSA, Patriot Act, Echelon project - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_%28signals_intelligence%29 all monitor for suspicious activity, up to and including what library books you may take out.)

But the difference between the American cyberwarfare unit and the Chinese is:
1) They may be more advanced and not get caught as often. Though the phone tapping scandal was egg on the Bush administration's face.
2) They are "good" and listening out for the "right" reasons (terrorism) and not the "wrong" ones (anti-State sedition - from the view of the Chinese gov., I've said before that I want a greater relaxation of the current rules)
3) They have the guns and aircraft carriers to actually go and fight a real war instead of needing to develop asymmetrical capabilities to defend its interests.

^ all of the above supposing that it was the Chinese government who authorised this breach of hacking attempt (again, something not proven yet - and admittedly very hard to prove from what I understand).

All in all, I do think that Google may have put the cart before the horse - if they wanted higher moral support they could have negotiated and then spill the contents of those negotiations to show how "evil" those Chinese government branches are before burning their bridge.

I could of course be wrong, but I don't see how either side can back down from the position that they are in.

edit:
Oh and in case you were interested in reading more on how Chinese posters feel about this on Chinese forums here's a link to quite a few bbs sites discussing this right now (thanks to Google of course )
http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&inlang=zh-CN&client=aff-sina&channel=tsearch&hs=O4P&affdom=sina.com.cn&tbo=1&output=search&q=%E8%B0%B7%E6%AD%8C%E6%8E%A8%E5%87%BA%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD&tbs=frm:1&ei=KU9QS4WQGZT0NaeJlZYJ&sa=X&oi=tool&resnum=7&ct=tlink&ved=0CAgQpwU

Biggins

Very Informative article: New York Times...

Last month, when Google engineers at their sprawling campus in Silicon Valley began to suspect that Chinese intruders were breaking into private Gmail accounts, the company began a secret counteroffensive.

It managed to gain access to a computer in Taiwan that it suspected of being the source of the attacks. Peering inside that machine, company engineers actually saw evidence of the aftermath of the attacks, not only at Google, but also at at least 33 other companies, including Adobe Systems, Northrop Grumman and Juniper Networks, according to a government consultant who has spoken with the investigators.

Seeing the breadth of the problem, they alerted American intelligence and law enforcement officials and worked with them to assemble powerful evidence that the masterminds of the attacks were not in Taiwan, but on the Chinese mainland.

But while much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them, company engineers could not definitively prove their case. Today that uncertainty, along with concerns about confronting the Chinese without strong evidence, has frozen the Obama administration’s response to the intrusion, one of the biggest cyberattacks of its kind, and to some extent the response of other targets, including some of the most prominent American companies.

...“Everything we are learning is that in this case the Chinese government got caught with its hand in the cookie jar,” said James A. Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, who consulted for the White House on cybersecurity last spring...

The article can be found and continues for those interested, HERE.

MackDeToaster

Google already have a large stakeholding in Baidu do they not ?

Also, slightly ot, but 2nd last para here..

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9144221/Google_attack_part_of_widespread_spying_effort?

"That's because they apparently were able to access a system used to help Google comply with search warrants by providing data on Google users, said a source familiar with the situation, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with the press. "Right before Christmas, it was, 'Holy s***, this malware is accessing the internal intercept [systems],'" he said."

Internal intercept systems eh, used to help Google comply with search warrants ? I had thought they gave over the bare minimum, if not actually refused to give anything. Hmmm.

ei.sdraob

Thirdfox wrote: »

Try Sina.com, one of the biggest discussion forums in China (and I guess the world).

http://forum.book.sina.com.cn/thread-2202732-1-1.html - this one in particular deals with the google threat (and again, one sees the difference in how the story is perceived by citizens from different viewpoints - economic vs. moral).

are they citizens or are they employees of the Ministry of Truth

can they seriously discuss politics in the open in China like we do here on boards?

and more importantly openly criticize the single party (Socialist/Communist/Authoritarian) government

no? taught so


if google doesnt want to do business in china, they dont have to, whether its for profit or ethical motives or both, its their choice

having your and other companies hacked by government backed hackers is not on

Moriarty

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Internal intercept systems eh, used to help Google comply with search warrants ? I had thought they gave over the bare minimum, if not actually refused to give anything. Hmmm.

If this surprises you, how do you think search warrants are carried out for the likes of phone companies, exactly?

DeVore

We dont block China any more, what we do is rate limit ips from there and if we get too much traffic from one ip in too short a time, we block that IP.


by the way, I wouldnt hold up Ireland as a shining light for freedom of speech. We have some of the most draconian press laws in the world. In china if you get up on a soapbox and criticise things, they will shoot you. In Ireland, they shoot the soapbox maker. Pretty soon, every soapbox maker is either out of business, dead, or scared.

DeV.

Thirdfox

Don't forget the crazy new blasphemy law here in Ireland (though it probably is constitutionally required). Should have tacked a constitutional amendment vote on to the Lisbon referendum but that's a whole separate issue.

And in a sign of progressiveness the Chinese government is trialling lethal injections now! /sarcasm (I'm not a fan of the death penalty either).

Still better than Japan and the hangman's noose

MackDeToaster

Moriarty wrote: »

If this surprises you, how do you think search warrants are carried out for the likes of phone companies, exactly?

Erm, they run a search on their databases and extract what info they can from those ? Specialised intercept systems sound a lot more ominous tho.

Moriarty

MackDeToaster wrote: »

Erm, they run a search on their databases and extract what info they can from those ? Specialised intercept systems sound a lot more ominous tho.

I'd suggest that you google(!) for LI or Lawful Intercept devices. It sounds like you'll be surprised at just how common they are and the features they give to the service provider and the relevant law enforcement agencies that interface with them. Any large communications carrier of any sort will have similar devices, both abroad and here in wee ol' Ireland.

serfboard

China is currently giving the two fingers to the rest of the world. They don't care about Google or anyone else.

SLUSK wrote: »

Well Google did it because their own corporate interests were targeted, they did not do it for any so called humanitarian reasons, otherwise they would have never gone to China in the first place.

Agree. One has to think that this (mooted) move by Google stinks of a fairly large amount of hypocrisy.

China is now flexing its muscles. The rest of the world will come to rue its decision to outsource its manufacturing to an undemocratic regime.

Overheal

Biggins wrote: »

Very Informative article: New York Times...

The article can be found and continues for those interested, HERE.

Saw this here: http://gizmodo.com/5449037/google-hacked-the-chinese-hackers-right-back

Counter-Terrorists Win :pac:

It "began a secret counteroffensive," breaking into a computer in Taiwan, gathering evidence the attacks originated from mainland China, possibly orchestrated by the government.

Google's delta force found evidence that the hackers had attacked 33 other companies, like Adobe, and that the onslaught actually came from China, not Taiwan. More to the point, "much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them."

Unfortunately, Google can't prove the Chinese government's involvement 100 percent, which is why the Obama administration is pussy-footing around the issue.

DeVore

Mind you.... Google has handed over quite a bit of personal data and continues to do so, to the American government willingly...

I'm glad to see China get this public slap in the face but the US are just as bad.

DeV.

Joey the lips

DeVore wrote: »

Mind you.... Google has handed over quite a bit of personal data and continues to do so, to the American government willingly...

I'm glad to see China get this public slap in the face but the US are just as bad.

DeV.

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

so the evils of one nation excuses the greater evils of another nation?

if a person A shoots a person its ok for person B to shoot 10 people??

instead of answering why your beloved socialist regimes are so utterly messed up you point the fingers at others and say they are messed up too so that excuses <insert JoeTheLips admired socialist utopia here>


Ireland is not perfect (See blasphemy laws) but were still damn better of than average Chinese when it comes to having freedoms

Overheal

Theres a significant difference though, in that its the United States getting google information from google over the table so to speak. Britain same story. There is an agreement (in US Law, See USA patriot act). Here, you had China forcibly stealing information from American and European countries with no prior consent to do so and through the use of malicious intrusion, outside of any rule of law.

This is an excellent point...There is a lot of talk of what the chinese are doing but it fails in comparrission to the information gathered by the american and british govts especially since 911.

We constantly talk of civil liberties but I imagine there is more information known than we would want to be known....

Well yes. The Patriot Act is a deeply flawed beast in many respects, but this is more to do with the handling of the information not the gathering of it. Putting children on terrorist watchlists because a computer program written ad hoc by the CIA processed some minor detail about the kid as being suspicious, etc. etc.

For the most part the Govt doesnt go gathering information for the hell of it. To my knowledge they do not go looking at myspace and facebook to see if their Marine Linguists are homosexuals, though I could be wrong.

MackDeToaster

Moriarty wrote: »

I'd suggest that you google(!) for LI or Lawful Intercept devices. It sounds like you'll be surprised at just how common they are and the features they give to the service provider and the relevant law enforcement agencies that interface with them. Any large communications carrier of any sort will have similar devices, both abroad and here in wee ol' Ireland.

I'm well aware of the legislation here and abroad, but I hadn't thought Google had actually gone down the road of installing specific devices yet. I use Jondo a lot, plus scroogle, noscript, betterprivacy etc etc, but the looks like I'll just have to start using jondo fulltime.

This is a good site for security info, as well as the Reg and similar... http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=39

Tinfoil hat on - let the arms race begin in earnest !

Joey the lips

Overheal wrote: »

Theres a significant difference though, in that its the United States getting google information from google over the table so to speak. Britain same story. There is an agreement (in US Law, See USA patriot act). Here, you had China forcibly stealing information from American and European countries with no prior consent to do so and through the use of malicious intrusion, outside of any rule of law.Well yes. The Patriot Act is a deeply flawed beast in many respects, but this is more to do with the handling of the information not the gathering of it. Putting children on terrorist watchlists because a computer program written ad hoc by the CIA processed some minor detail about the kid as being suspicious, etc. etc.

For the most part the Govt doesnt go gathering information for the hell of it. To my knowledge they do not go looking at myspace and facebook to see if their Marine Linguists are homosexuals, though I could be wrong.

I agree but is there information being handed over that we know off and is there information we dont know off. Granted we can speculate and we will never leave home but I believe that all goverments gather information. Its just a matter what is done with that information

For example... Many moons ago if you were members of certain political parties in ireland you were photographed going in and out of meetings(These groups were legal) now I dont know many people who were politically active that were arrested but was this an intimidation method....

For example america will not arrest you but if you know that america is gathering information on anyone who visits cuba would this put you off visiting cuba. Especially if your american.

There is no doubt the world has relied on the chinese for so long when it comes to money and economics. I remember over 30 years ago my toys saying made in hong kong. As anyone knows hong kong is the holding company for goods made in china and sold to the world.

I would tend to believe these attacks more if information was actually actued upon. I commend google for there security but honestly....


How do you really know who is wagging the dog....

Are we just going with googles explination because they wear our team colours.

How would we feel about google if they pulled out of ireland and relocated to tiwan( granted highly unlikely as they are information and not product based)

The Corinthian

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so the evils of one nation excuses the greater evils of another nation?

No, but it does demonstrate the futility of attempting to seek the higher moral ground in a World of Realpolitik.

Thirdfox

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ireland is not perfect (See blasphemy laws) but were still damn better of than average Chinese when it comes to having freedoms

Undoubtedly so, but the counterpoint being, has the standard of living (encompassing the political, social, economic well-being etc.) of a Chinese person improved more in the last 40 years than compared to say the average Irish or American over that time period? It'd be very hard to deny that massive improvements have taken place - 300 million people lifted out of poverty (that's the population of the US) over these last few decades.

Of course, as Dublin Bus(?) says - a lot done, a lot more to do. Someday porn will be freely available on the Chinese net as well as harsh criticism of governmental leaders (and from my personal viewpoint as a person involved with law I'm waiting for the first case where a citizen uses the Constitution of China to sue the government - may be waiting some time...) But comparing China now with 40 years ago (when it was "off with your head" quite literally if you dared to speak against Mao) to now when nouveau artists can have statues of a headless Mao commissioned one has to (grudgingly?) admit that the situation has improved for hundreds of millions of people.

Another example - the Tang Shan earthquake some 34 years ago killed 242,000 people and the government at the time not only refused outside aid but tried to cover up the disaster from the rest of China.

The Si Chuan earthquake of 08 saw the government accept aid even from their bitter rival "renegade province" Taiwan and dispatching journalists to document the rescue effort. (Journalists who were subsequently removed once they started investigating shoddy construction in schools).

If you say that China's 1st generation human rights improvement (civil/political) isn't improving at a fast enough pace I'd be inclined to agree. But one must remember that political developments take time, especially for a civilisation that has had almost 5000 years of strong, central command and governance.

Or should we take John Bolton's (US envoy to the UN) advice about what to do about Iraq - "give them a copy of the Federalist Papers and say good luck with that".

Joey the lips wrote: »

How would we feel about google if they pulled out of ireland and relocated to tiwan( granted highly unlikely as they are information and not product based)

Taiwan has a thriving IT industry I believe...but the current status of the island is kinda (politically not legally) separate to that of mainland China (a whole different can of worms )

Biggins

Further crack down on liberties in the wake of Google lifting their Chinese filters:

Friday January 15 2010

China has started scanning text messages for inappropriate content representing the latest move in the country’s increasing censorship.
Customers of China’s two largest mobile phone networks, China Mobile and China Unicom, have had their text-messaging service blocked after sending risqué texts, according to the state media.
It comes as the country is embroiled in a row with Google over cyber attacks. On Tuesday the internet giant, said it may quit China because of concerns about the country’s recent increase in censorship.

The Global Times, a government-run newspaper, said “everyone seems to be under watch”. Last year, the government vowed to suppress pornography on the internet and has now extended its campaign to mobile phones.
China Mobile is the world’s biggest mobile phone company, with over 508 million customers. Its network handles 1.7 billion text messages a day.
The latest development implies that Chinese censors have moved beyond monitoring of the internet and are now also spying on the country’s vast network of phones.

More here