Defamation Documentry and Irish Israel relations?

Kipperhell · 13-01-2010 03:05PM

A trailer for those interested.

http://www.defamation-thefilm.com/html/trailer1.html

Knowing Channel 4 and it's various incarnation it will probably be on again soon as it was on More4.

CrazyRabbit · 13-01-2010 10:25PM

Perhaps when they start treating the Palestinians a bit better, people might like them a bit more.

Mike 1972 · 13-01-2010 10:43PM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

And i hate that they also hijacked the term anti-semitic. Not all jews are semitic and semitism includes a lot of Arab groups and languages too. So if someone criticizes Israel over Palestine i don't get how it's anti semitic. They are both semites.

Not to mention the fact that most of the worlds Jews choose not to live in Israel.

Are they anti semites too ?

Victor · 14-01-2010 12:23AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I think any groups who use the race card or cry persecution anytime they are criticised are only shooting themselves in foot and will only create resentment towards themselves by doing so.

I disagree that Ireland is anti-semitic. Granted there has been anti-semitic actions here in the past but nowhere near the scale in places like Russia, Germany, France etc. I don't think theres enough to label Ireland an anti-semitic country.

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

slipss · 14-01-2010 01:13AM

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

But i agree with you. I'd say 99% of the Israeli's i have met i have hated.

Same here and I've met English, Australian, French ect and loads of other Irish people that have said pretty much the same thing. What the hell is that about? I haven't experienced that with any other nationality of people, ever. I judge everyone individually, I can genuinly say that I don't prejudge anyone based on race, religion, nationality, looks or anything else. But every Isreali I've met with only one single exception has been a complete asshole.

P.S. I'll just point out that I've met quite a few American and English Jewish people and didn't find them to be any more or less likeable than anyone else, just Israeli's. I really can't understand it, is there something wierd in the drinking water over there or something?

TheDuderino · 15-01-2010 02:21AM

wes wrote: »

You fail to mention that the new born state of Israel was created by European colonists. European colonists were pretty much unwelcome any where on the planet when they showed up to nick other peoples land.
 
 
 
Sure, it can certainly work, but the Israeli's are still taking land from the Palestinains, and the Palestinians are hopelessly divided.

The jews are a distinct people, not much conversion to it takes place. The overwhelming majority have roots back to before the diaspora.
So, short of finding and proving you have peoples of the original cities in Canaan, judea belongs to the jewish people. It was stolen by the romans, but belongs to the jewish people.
If Cromwell had evicted all the Irish from this island, would you still say their decendants have no right to return and reclaim their stolen land?

Cunny-Funt · 15-01-2010 04:13AM

Israel is one of those scumbag countries, yeah thats right, countries can be scumbags too. N.Korea, Iran, libya etc Only difference is the US support them.

Jewish people are fine, a lot of jews are very unhappy with Israel too, does that mean they hate themselves? Lol...

TomTom · 15-01-2010 06:41AM

I had a row with two israeli guys in australia on Fraiser island who started going mental at me for cooking sausages on a shared pan. There were not even in our group so they were not entitled to use the pan or any cooking facilities, they had their own. They just wanted a row. There were nasty as hell to some other nationalities in the group but they were also outnumbered by about 35 to 2. We were anti-semites according to them when people started to argue back agains their constant stream of abuse and snide comments towards people. I called them racist and they were flabergasted that I could percieve them as so, yet there were making fun of a German girl non stop due to her countries history.

I have yet to meet someone from Israel that I like. I am not anti-semetic I have no problem with Jewish people or their beliefs.

philstar · 15-01-2010 06:53AM

My name is URL wrote: »

they seem to have a victim mentality that they just can't get over

oh ya:rolleyes: and are we any better, 800 years of oppression and all that

Kipperhell · 15-01-2010 11:01AM

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Jewish people are fine, a lot of jews are very unhappy with Israel too, does that mean they hate themselves? Lol...

They refer to them as "Self Hating Jews". The documentary showed one guy who was refused Israel passport due to a book he wrote even though his parents survived the concentration camps. They accused him of being a holocaust denier.:eek:

In fairness he seemed like a bit of of an ass very much in the same vein as Sinead O'Connor. I wouldn't deny she is Irish though.

A lot of the comments in the documentary were very similar to the way some Irish people go on.

HalloweenJack · 15-01-2010 11:33AM

Kipperhell wrote: »

Am I missing something?

Hasn't the Irish government always been supportive of the Palestine struggle? We have a bit of a tradition of supporting revolutionary struggles.

I imagine that'd be enough for them.

Kipperhell · 15-01-2010 11:58AM

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Hasn't the Irish government always been supportive of the Palestine struggle? We have a bit of a tradition of supporting revolutionary struggles.

I imagine that'd be enough for them.

Well it would really depend on what you call support. UN troops and humanitarian aid combined with calls for proper open discussions would not be something I call support. Israel became a state by the skin of its teeth.

I would not consider Ireland supports revolutionary causes but supports discussion. It is fair to say that Palestine has as much a claim to the lands as the Jewish people do. There are people who remember living in houses that they owned for generations which were taken from them and then simply given to other people. On any level that does not seem to be fair. It isn't like it was just a change in regime. I would not consider Palestine's cause as revolutionary it is closer to a fight against occupation. It is not a simple issue one way or the other.

philologos · 15-01-2010 12:03PM

Kipperhell wrote: »

They refer to them as "Self Hating Jews". The documentary showed one guy who was refused Israel passport due to a book he wrote even though his parents survived the concentration camps. They accused him of being a holocaust denier.:eek:

Norman Finkelstein? He also lost his tenure at DePaul University for what he wrote.

In my pro-Palestine phase I would have read a lot of his stuff. I've moderated quite a bit on the issue though, it's not as simple as blame Israel for everything.

Morlar · 15-01-2010 12:10PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Norman Finkelstein? He also lost his tenure at DePaul University for what he wrote.

In my pro-Palestine phase I would have read a lot of his stuff. I've moderated quite a bit on the issue though, it's not as simple as blame Israel for everything.

I don't think you could describe Finkelstein as a 'blame israel for everything' kind of author. The book he got in most trouble for was called 'The Holocaust Industry' which focused on the organised shakedown of Swiss banks and German govt by a myriad of jewish advocacy groups who then filtered the billions to political causes (in israel) rather than to the individuals it was intended for.

He is a jewish professor and both his parents survived Auschwitz relatively unscathed yet his opponents (people like that charmer Alan Dershowitz) have no hesitation to describe him as anti semitic holocaust denier. They hounded him out of his job as a result of his book too. The ADL who are primarily responsible are absolutely shameful scumbags in my opinion.

philologos · 15-01-2010 12:17PM

Morlar wrote: »

I don't think you could describe Finkelstein as a 'blame israel for everything' kind of author. The book he got in most trouble for was called 'The Holocaust Industry' which focused on the organised shakedown of Swiss banks and German govt by a myriad of jewish advocacy groups who then filtered the billions to political causes (in israel) rather than to the individuals it was intended for.

He is a jewish professor and both his parents survived Auschwitz relatively unscathed yet his opponents (people like that charmer Alan Dershowitz) have no hesitation to describe him as anti semitic holocaust denier. They hounded him out of his job as a result of his book too. The ADL who are primarily responsible are absolutely shameful scumbags in my opinion.

I know who he is, I've read some of his books (Beyond Chutzpah, but also The Image and the Reality of the Israel - Palestine conflict).

I now think, after reading other history books of Modern Israel's history that the Palestinians are not as blame free as people sometimes like to suggest.

I also know of the whole Dershowitz issue.

Nodin · 15-01-2010 12:23PM

....the man behind a great deal of that was Alan Dershowitz, who rather famously used the Nazis as an example of why toture was effective....
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010832

getz · 15-01-2010 01:24PM

Victor wrote: »

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

you are very correct,ireland with the help of the church has a passed of anti semitism,that is going to take time to go away,you can see it on these threads even now,in irelands early days, [1945 ] the department of justice and immigration policy, said,quote;it is the policy of the [irish republic] department of justice to restrict the immigration of jews.[nation archives ireland, DT 69/8027,24 september 1945. it also says more but the rest is very nasty

Morlar · 15-01-2010 01:29PM

getz wrote: »

you are very correct,ireland with the help of the church has a passed of anti semitism,that is going to take time to go away,you can see it on these threads even now,in irelands early days, [1945 ] the department of justice and immigration policy, said,quote;it is the policy of the [irish republic] department of justice to restrict the immigration of jews.[nation archives ireland, DT 69/8027,24 september 1945. it also says more but the rest is very nasty

Utter bull**** and blown 1billion percent out of ALL Reasonable proportion.

One 'pogrom' in Limerick in which not one single hand was placed on not one single jewish person.

Post ww2 we did not want our country flooded with jewish refugees as at that time the true extent of the situation was unknown, also this was at least partly due to anti-communism. So yes we did intentionally restrict jewish immigration.

That's it right there. How 'persecuted' and 'victimised' the jews in Ireland really are. Nonsense.

philologos · 15-01-2010 01:36PM

Victor wrote: »

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

One can say that DeValera was anti-Semitic, but the toleration of the Jewish community in Ireland was enshrined in the Irish Constitution from 1937 onwards. It doesn't particularly sound anti-Semitic to me.

wes · 15-01-2010 01:57PM

TheDuderino wrote: »

The jews are a distinct people, not much conversion to it takes place. The overwhelming majority have roots back to before the diaspora.

Read up on the Berber Jews and Khazar Jews. There existence shows clearly that conversion to Judaism did happen on mass in the past. This may not be the case now, but at certain points in the past it did happen.

TheDuderino wrote: »

So, short of finding and proving you have peoples of the original cities in Canaan, judea belongs to the jewish people. It was stolen by the romans, but belongs to the jewish people.

Those people are the Palestinians. There the indigenous population:
Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry

Genetics prove your above claims to be simply incorrect.

The following interview in Haaretz is also interesting regarding the subject:
Shattering a 'national mythology'

TheDuderino wrote: »

If Cromwell had evicted all the Irish from this island, would you still say their decendants have no right to return and reclaim their stolen land?

**EDIT**
The main problem with you nonsensical example, is it was the Palestinian who are the original inhabitants. All they did was change the Religion to Christianity under the Romans, and then Islam under the Arabs, and during that period they also intermarried with the various invaders etc. All of that doesn't stop them being the indigenous people of the land.

There is genetic evidence that proves this, as well as plenty of historical evidence as well. There really is no need to repeat old Zionists myths, as they are very easy to tear apart.
**EDIT**

Brian Griffin · 15-01-2010 02:01PM

TomTom wrote: »

I had a row with two israeli guys in australia on Fraiser island who started going mental at me for cooking sausages on a shared pan. There were not even in our group so they were not entitled to use the pan or any cooking facilities, they had their own. They just wanted a row. There were nasty as hell to some other nationalities in the group but they were also outnumbered by about 35 to 2. We were anti-semites according to them when people started to argue back agains their constant stream of abuse and snide comments towards people. I called them racist and they were flabergasted that I could percieve them as so, yet there were making fun of a German girl non stop due to her countries history.

I have yet to meet someone from Israel that I like. I am not anti-semetic I have no problem with Jewish people or their beliefs.

Think i Got a bit of insight to why this is but could be completely wrong.

I've met a ood few israelis and heres my two cents.

Most of them are all horrible people. Its there the only country that the people are nearly always rude and annoying at best. Every other country has people that are nice and people who are not, regardless of the sterotype that the counrty has.

I think the reason for this is that mosts of the Israelis that you meet traveling are of an age where they have recently left the army, more then likely they are traveling with friends from the army. They are completely indoctrinated by the army and are dicks without a brain. But even met one or two traveling by themselves and they were also rude.

I have met a few Israelis that are alright, they were older or had skipped the county to avoid the army. And i got on ok with these guys, didnt bring up any sensitive subjects though.

philologos · 15-01-2010 02:15PM

wes wrote: »

Read up on the Berber Jews and Khazar Jews. There existence shows clearly that conversion to Judaism did happen on mass in the past. This may not be the case now, but at certain points in the past it did happen.

It still does, albeit in a very minor way. What's your point? There is evidence to show that the Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews differs a lot from European Gentiles, with very little interbreeding by generation. These Y-chromosones also match other Semitic groups in the Middle Eastern region.

It's a farce to suggest that the current Jews living in Israel aren't at least in the vast majority of cases descended from those who were displaced from Rome. You can suggest that the actions of the Israeli state are wrong without denying the facts. I think there has been a huge amount of abuse on the Israeli side, but in a lot of cases the Palestinians have not done themselves any favours.

bugler · 15-01-2010 02:22PM

I'm reporting this thread to the ADL.

wes · 15-01-2010 02:38PM

Jakkass wrote: »

It still does, albeit in a very minor way. What's your point? There is evidence to show that the Y-chromosones of Ashkenazi Jews differs a lot from European Gentiles, with very little interbreeding by generation. These Y-chromosones also match other Semitic groups in the Middle Eastern region.

My point is that the Palestinian are the indigenous populace, plain and simple, and also disproves the myth that all Jews originate from what is today Israel and Palestine.

Indicently, I wasn't the one to bring this up, I was just replying to a post that quoted me.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's a farce to suggest that the current Jews living in Israel aren't at least in the vast majority of cases descended from those who were displaced from Rome.

Hardly a farce, but I do agree that Israeli's are probably descended from Jews who lived there over a millenium ago, but I personally don't think this a valid reason for a land claim, as if we were to follow that reasoning, both you and me (and every single boards.ie member) can make land claims in Africa then. Sure some of my ancestors lived in Iran back in 900 bc, do you think they would be ok if I tried to take there land from them, or you know laugh in my face before shooting it?

Jakkass wrote: »

You can suggest that the actions of the Israeli state are wrong without denying the facts. I think there has been a huge amount of abuse on the Israeli side, but in a lot of cases the Palestinians have not done themselves any favours.

I am not denying any facts actually, just providing them. The Palestinians are the indigenous people, and to deny this basic fact is pointless, as genetic evidence has long since shown this to be true.

**EDIT**
I do agree that the Palestinian leadership, have certainly done there cause no favours, but I do take issues with Zionist myths trying to justify the theft of Palestinian land in the first place, and won't hesistate to challenge such myths.
**EDIT**

getz · 15-01-2010 02:52PM

Morlar wrote: »

Utter bull**** and blown 1billion percent out of ALL Reasonable proportion.

One 'pogrom' in Limerick in which not one single hand was placed on not one single jewish person.

Post ww2 we did not want our country flooded with jewish refugees as at that time the true extent of the situation was unknown, also this was at least partly due to anti-communism. So yes we did intentionally restrict jewish immigration.

That's it right there. How 'persecuted' and 'victimised' the jews in Ireland really are. Nonsense.

http;/home.eircominet/content/irela...view=eircomnet . quote,The goverment has been urged to introduce tougher legislation to deal with racially motovated criminal damage because anti-semitic attacts in dublin,look around ,when was the last time you spotted a jewish name on a shop, a doctors or lawyers office in ireland ?.

philologos · 15-01-2010 02:54PM

wes wrote: »

My point is that the Palestinian are the indigenous populace, plain and simple, and also disproves the myth that all Jews originate from what is today Israel and Palestine.

What evidence do you have to suggest that the vast majority of the Jewish people do not have Semitic genes from the region? There is a lot to suggest that the Jewish people indeed are of the same line who were evicted from Rome all those years ago.

It's pure nonsense to suggest that the Palestinians are somehow more authentically the heirs of the land, and that the Jews are not merely because they were kicked out.

Indicently, I wasn't the one to bring this up, I was just replying to a post that quoted me.

wes wrote: »

Hardly a farce, but I do agree that Israeli's are probably descended from Jews who lived there over a millenium ago, but I personally don't think this a valid reason for a land claim, as if we were to follow that reasoning, both you and me (and every single boards.ie member) can make land claims in Africa then. Sure some of my ancestors lived in Iran back in 900 bc, do you think they would be ok if I tried to take there land from them, or you know laugh in my face before shooting it?

I'm a bit more of a pragmatist, instead of going back to 1948, we need to look at 2009 and see what is the best way to give Palestinians their rights while living peacefully alongside their Jewish neighbours.

Although, leaving that aside, most of the first Zionist settlement in Israel was through purchasing land, rather than stealing it as you seem to imply. If you bought land in Iran, and if you decided to live there, fair dues to you in my book.

What I do disagree with, is the emergence of Jewish militant groups in the 1930's, and the result of the Arab - Israeli War of 1948 which was to displace 700,000 Palestinians. I do disagree with the Separation Barrier, and other such human rights issues.

I don't disagree with Israel's existence, and I hope that it continues to exist for years to come, I hope peace comes to it however, and I hope that it is a land where Israelis and Palestinians can learn to live together in harmony. (I support a One-State Solution).

wes wrote: »

I am not denying any facts actually, just providing them. The Palestinians are the indigenous people, and to deny this basic fact is pointless, as genetic evidence has long since shown this to be true.

It's petty point-scoring. The genetic evidence we have places a strong link between the Jewish people and that region. If I wanted to I could attempt to discredit Palestinians as being Cypriots considering that this is a part of their genetics. However, by and large they are a Semitic / Phonecian group of people.

wes wrote: »

**EDIT**
I do agree that the Palestinian leadership, have certainly done there cause no favours, but I do take issues with Zionist myths trying to justify the theft of Palestinian land in the first place, and won't hesistate to challenge such myths.
**EDIT**

The period between 1949 - 1967 is the period I have most difficulty with. The Palestinians seem to have shot themselves in the foot by being happy to give their land to the Jordanians and the Egyptians. It doesn't bode well for Palestinian national identity.

Nodin · 15-01-2010 03:29PM

getz wrote: »

,look around ,when was the last time you spotted a jewish name on a shop, a doctors or lawyers office in ireland ?.

....that's because theres bugger all of them left in Ireland. Not that there was that many to begin with.

wes · 15-01-2010 03:29PM

Jakkass wrote: »

What evidence do you have to suggest that the vast majority of the Jewish people do not have Semitic genes from the region? There is a lot to suggest that the Jewish people indeed are of the same line who were evicted from Rome all those years ago.

I never suggested that the majority of Jewish people don't have ancestors from the region, just that not all of them do.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's pure nonsense to suggest that the Palestinians are somehow more authentically the heirs of the land, and that the Jews are not merely because they were kicked out.

I think when you claims are a millenium old there a bad joke. The Palestinians were driven from there homes, based on land claim that is over a 1000 years old, I am sorry but that is quite frankly nonsensical in the extreme.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm a bit more of a pragmatist, instead of going back to 1948, we need to look at 2009 and see what is the best way to give Palestinians their rights while living peacefully alongside their Jewish neighbours.

Yes, which is all well and good, but as I stated earlier I do take issue with Zionists myths and will challenge them.

Jakkass wrote: »

Although, leaving that aside, most of the first Zionist settlement in Israel was through purchasing land, rather than stealing it as you seem to imply. If you bought land in Iran, and if you decided to live there, fair dues to you in my book.

Well, leaving aside the fact that you claims about Zionists mostly buying the land is actually wrong, and is another Zionists myth. Now, some Zionists did buy land, but if you look up on how much they bought, you will clearly see that they only actually bought a tiny portion of the land of Palestine, and I should add that buying land doesn't give you a right to set up a state btw.

You see if I went to Iran with the express intention of setting up my own state (the Zionists aim in Palestine incidently), then they would rightly take issue with it, regardless of whether I bought land or not. You are leaving out the simple fact that Zionist went to Palestine to create there own state.

Jakkass wrote: »

What I do disagree with, is the emergence of Jewish militant groups in the 1930's, and the result of the Arab - Israeli War of 1948 which was to displace 700,000 Palestinians. I do disagree with the Separation Barrier, and other such human rights issues.

Well, we both agree on this.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't disagree with Israel's existence, and I hope that it continues to exist for years to come, I hope peace comes to it however, and I hope that it is a land where Israelis and Palestinians can learn to live together in harmony. (I support a One-State Solution).

I have no issue with Israel existence in the here and now, but I consider its creation to have been a crime agianst the indigenous people, the Palestinians, in much the same way as I would consider the European colonization of the America's as a crime against the native people there.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's petty point-scoring. The genetic evidence we have places a strong link between the Jewish people and that region. If I wanted to I could attempt to discredit Palestinians as being Cypriots considering that this is a part of their genetics. However, by and large they are a Semitic / Phonecian group of people.

Well, I would have no issue with very easily tearing a part such a claim, and in fact it easy to explain via inter-marriage.

Again, I don't disagree that a large portion of Jews originate from Palestine, but that I find a 2000 year old land claim to be nonsence and to be honest I think such a land claim to have as much merit as you or me claiming parts of Africa. Zionists are just European colonists, they are not special, and there ancient lands claims are bloody joke.

Jakkass wrote: »

The period between 1949 - 1967 is the period I have most difficulty with. The Palestinians seem to have shot themselves in the foot by being happy to give their land to the Jordanians and the Egyptians. It doesn't bode well for Palestinian national identity.

So? Its there land, and they can do with as they wish, and I would disagree with your assessment of it in anyways.

The creation of the state of Isreal went against the wishes of the indigenous populace, and whether there is or isn't a Palestinain national identity is irrelevant.

getz · 15-01-2010 03:35PM

Nodin wrote: »

....that's because theres bugger all of them left in Ireland. Not that there was that many to begin with.

thats true, but why is that ?

Morlar · 15-01-2010 03:39PM

getz wrote: »

http;/home.eircominet/content/irela...view=eircomnet . quote,The goverment has been urged to introduce tougher legislation to deal with racially motovated criminal damage because anti-semitic attacts in dublin,look around ,when was the last time you spotted a jewish name on a shop, a doctors or lawyers office in ireland ?.

Your blog link does not work.

Defamation Documentry and Irish Israel relations?

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