Defamation Documentry and Irish Israel relations?

Kipperhell

Channel 4 had a documentary on last night about anti-Semitism which was quite good. Effectively there are organisations that see any negative comments on Israel as defamation of all Jews and revealing true anti-Semitics.

I did a quick search and it turns out some people think of Ireland as anti-Semitic. I know we aren't actually very good with integration with recent immigrants but I generally see that as bedding in period.

The Jewish population in Ireland has definitely dwindled but I thought that was mostly to do with economic emigration.

I would think Ireland would actually have a pretty good objective view of their situation and be useful for some form of peace or road towards it. Am I missing something?

Check it out Mary Robinson is a threat apparently.

orourkeda

They've probably all left Ireland to live in palestine

Morlar

Kipperhell wrote: »

I did a quick search and it turns out some people think of Ireland as anti-Semitic.

The people who repeatedly throw those allegations about have zero credibility. They have cried wolf about a zillion times too often to be taken seriously. Jewish advocacy groups need allegations of anti semitism to justify their own exsistence & look for preferential treatment or as a means to undermine legitimate opposition to mistreatment of palestinians. No one outside of their own sphere and some politically correct idiots in america take them seriously.

My name is URL

Some Jews are always on the lookout for something to cause people to think that anti-semitism is rampant

they seem to have a victim mentality that they just can't get over

bonerm

I'm torn on this issue. In one hand I'd probably be happy if Palestinians destroyed the state of Israel forever, but on the other hand I love Curb your Enthusiam.

griffdaddy

I see Judaism as a direct threat to the Irish Breakfast, so of course I'm going to be Anti-Semitic.

orourkeda

griffdaddy wrote: »

I see Judaism as a direct threat to the Irish Breakfast, so of course I'm going to be Anti-Semitic.

Are rashers and pork sausages anti-semitic or anti-islamic?

wes

While, there is certainly Anti-Semitism out there, and it should be condemned and challeneged when its rears its ugly head. However, crying wolf every 2 minutes won't help things in any way shape or form, and sadly this happens a lot whenever the IDF engages in another atrocity against the Palestinians, and people offer criticism against it, which often results in the predictable accusation of Anti-semitism, regardless of the merits of the criticism.

IvySlayer

It's amazing everything time someone tries to condemn Isreal for it's actions they brand it as anti semitism.

novarock

Israel see any criticism of their foreign policy as Anti-Semetism. Or any criticism for that matter. Im not Anti-semetic by any means - but I am certainly Anti-Israels foreign policy in relation to palestine..

Id say that a lot of irish people feel the same because of the inbred hatred of countries that cant stay inside their own borders, its no secret really.

Morlar

novarock wrote: »

Israel see any criticism of their foreign policy as Anti-Semetism. Or any criticism for that matter.

I don't think they genuinely do, I just think they are acutely aware of the value of their 'get out of jail free card', also those engaged in this have no concept of shame or of respect for others. Perhaps it's a considered thing, along the lines of 'we know this is immoral but the end justifies the means' but more likely it's just convenient and they are not imaginative enough to combat criticism of isreal in a more legitimate manner. I actually think israel would have a lot more friends internationally if they cut this nonsense and were more above board about their actions & motives etc.

Kipperhell

IvySlayer wrote: »

It's amazing everything time someone tries to condemn Isreal for it's actions they brand it as anti semitism.

The documentary did a reasonable job of showing why this is the case and the people involved in doing so. ADL really were shown to be exaggerating things for their own purposes.

The worst thing was the school kids spouting out how the world hates Jews and that everybody knows that. Their visits to the concentration camps kind of sounded like indoctrination into hatred and fear. Afterwards one teenager seemed to sincerely advocating killing the heirs of anybody involved as justice.

The next generation from Israel might actually be more xenophobic judging by what they were teaching.

Xluna

"Criticise us and you're an anti semite"( Level three on the Satanic scale,just ahead of rapist but below child molester.) Wow that must be a tempting card for a nation to use in order to get their own way in politics. Kind of a form of psychological terrorism when you think about it.

BraziliaNZ

I don't like what Israel are doing and every Israeli I've met has been a complete and utter pr*ck. Don't want anything to do with Israel personally and I boycott their products. A lot of the potatoes/veg you buy in Tesco etc are grown there, beware!

kmick

I actually feel sorry for them on some level. Always looking for a bad guy in very soft targets. Once you stifle discussion and push things underground it just makes things worse. Israel strikes me as a country in very ideological and political meltdown. I find it ironic that the long term plan is to build a wall around themselves ostensibly to keep people out.

orourkeda

kmick wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for them on some level. Always looking for a bad guy in very soft targets. Once you stifle discussion and push things underground it just makes things worse. Israel strikes me as a country in very ideological and political meltdown. I find it ironic that the long term plan is to build a wall around themselves ostensibly to keep people out.

We should do that here.

DublinWriter

orourkeda wrote: »

They've probably all left Ireland to live in palestine

Most emigrated to Manchester between 1945 and 1960.

There's a world of a difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, there's even a Jewish anti-Zionist organisation in the UK FFS.

Kipperhell

Xluna wrote: »

"Criticise us and you're an anti semite"( Level three on the Satanic scale,just ahead of rapist but below child molester.) Wow that must be a tempting card for a nation to use in order to get their own way in politics. Kind of a form of psychological terrorism when you think about it.

You should see the documentary ADL chairman basically bullies the Polish (I think) officials under the threat of perceived influence of US political/economic power. The ADL guys then joke about how they do this, start saying stuff but won't quite finish due to the camera.

I all seemed very human and normal abuse of power.

The documentary won some awards so try catching it.

pablomakaveli

I think any groups who use the race card or cry persecution anytime they are criticised are only shooting themselves in foot and will only create resentment towards themselves by doing so.

I disagree that Ireland is anti-semitic. Granted there has been anti-semitic actions here in the past but nowhere near the scale in places like Russia, Germany, France etc. I don't think theres enough to label Ireland an anti-semitic country.

Sheeps

I don't like ultra orthodox Jews. I generally don't like extremists though, because they all seem to be fucking stupid.

mike65

Ireland isn't so much anti-Semitec as it is anti anyone who is not Catholic. See schools, healthcare, inter marriage etc.

TheDuderino

novarock wrote: »

Israel see any criticism of their foreign policy as Anti-Semetism. Or any criticism for that matter. Im not Anti-semetic by any means - but I am certainly Anti-Israels foreign policy in relation to palestine..

Id say that a lot of irish people feel the same because of the inbred hatred of countries that cant stay inside their own borders, its no secret really.

True.
But they tend to forget that the surrounding arab counties tried to kill the newborn state of Israel back in '48 (I think). The Arabs couldnt stay within their own borders.
Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was a stupid mistake. The shouldnt have stepped in there.
Then again, "Land for Peace" worked well enough with the Egyptians. Why not with the Palestinians?

ejmaztec

Roses are red,
violets are bluish,
if it weren't for Christmas,
we'd all be Jewish.

wes

TheDuderino wrote: »

True.
But they tend to forget that the surrounding arab counties tried to kill the newborn state of Israel back in '48 (I think). The Arabs couldnt stay within their own borders.

You fail to mention that the new born state of Israel was created by European colonists. European colonists were pretty much unwelcome any where on the planet when they showed up to nick other peoples land.

TheDuderino wrote: »

Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was a stupid mistake. The shouldnt have stepped in there.
Then again, "Land for Peace" worked well enough with the Egyptians. Why not with the Palestinians?

Sure, it can certainly work, but the Israeli's are still taking land from the Palestinains, and the Palestinians are hopelessly divided.

CinammonGirl

In fairness, we don't have a great record in our treatment of Jews in this country (the Limerick pogrom in the early 1900s, Oliver J Flanagan's speech in 1943 urging the "routing out" of Jews from the country) but that was all a long time ago and hopefully we have moved on from that.

As a lot of posters have pointed out, the anti-Semite card is played all too frequently when Israel is criticised for some or other abuse. I would certainly not consider myself an anti-Semite by any means (pro-Jewish if anything, Jewish people have made an extradordinarily disproportionate contribution to the worlds of culture, business, etc) but some of the acts perpetrated by the Israeli state in the cause of Judaism just beggar belief. Their complete disregard for the UN is a case in point.

Having spent a few months in Israel, at a personal level, I consider it a fascinating country with a population that has a permanently paranoid and siege mentality. My favourite headline from one of their most popular broadsheets during the time I was there was "Ten reasons why we have to bomb Iran now"!!!!

I would be interested in seeing that documentary.

Xluna

mike65 wrote: »

Ireland isn't so much anti-Semitec as it is anti anyone who is not Catholic. See schools, healthcare, inter marriage etc.

Legislation/constitution is one thing,public opinion is another. Irish people in general are pretty non religious imo.

mike65

People have to operate within the law of the state though.

dsmythy

I think you'll find that most people in Ireland just simply don't care about Israel nor Palestine. They are more interested in a few pints at the weekend.

You are not automatically anti-semitic if you are anti-Israeli policies. And that is clear cut. The Jewish lobby groups will just label you anti-semitic so your reputation is destroyed and you will no longer be able to criticize Israeli policies, well in the media anyway. Then the Israeli government can continue with it's 100% wrong in every conceivable way policies. Luckly Ireland, Sweden, etc. are not individuals and as countries can speak their mind somewhat. Irish TDs, MEPs etc. are not dependent on Israeli lobby groups for political campaign donations (unlike a lot of their US counterparts) so they can also critisize Israeli policies. There are countless Israeli/Jewish groups in Israel who also condemn Israeli policies.

dvpower

I generally find myself becoming anti anyone who accuses others of being anti-semitic.

InKonspikuou2

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I don't like what Israel are doing and every Israeli I've met has been a complete and utter pr*ck. Don't want anything to do with Israel personally and I boycott their products. A lot of the potatoes/veg you buy in Tesco etc are grown there, beware!

You probably used their technology to type this though. Israel is a big supplier of processors for Europe. Especially Intel. But i agree with you. I'd say 99% of the Israeli's i have met i have hated. One even got me kicked out of Australia. Well my visa was revoked and i was asked to leave.

And i hate that they also hijacked the term anti-semitic. Not all jews are semitic and semitism includes a lot of Arab groups and languages too. So if someone criticizes Israel over Palestine i don't get how it's anti semitic. They are both semites.

Kipperhell

A trailer for those interested.

http://www.defamation-thefilm.com/html/trailer1.html

Knowing Channel 4 and it's various incarnation it will probably be on again soon as it was on More4.

CrazyRabbit

Perhaps when they start treating the Palestinians a bit better, people might like them a bit more.

Mike 1972

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

And i hate that they also hijacked the term anti-semitic. Not all jews are semitic and semitism includes a lot of Arab groups and languages too. So if someone criticizes Israel over Palestine i don't get how it's anti semitic. They are both semites.

Not to mention the fact that most of the worlds Jews choose not to live in Israel.

Are they anti semites too ?

Victor

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I think any groups who use the race card or cry persecution anytime they are criticised are only shooting themselves in foot and will only create resentment towards themselves by doing so.

I disagree that Ireland is anti-semitic. Granted there has been anti-semitic actions here in the past but nowhere near the scale in places like Russia, Germany, France etc. I don't think theres enough to label Ireland an anti-semitic country.

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

slipss

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

But i agree with you. I'd say 99% of the Israeli's i have met i have hated.

Same here and I've met English, Australian, French ect and loads of other Irish people that have said pretty much the same thing. What the hell is that about? I haven't experienced that with any other nationality of people, ever. I judge everyone individually, I can genuinly say that I don't prejudge anyone based on race, religion, nationality, looks or anything else. But every Isreali I've met with only one single exception has been a complete asshole.





P.S. I'll just point out that I've met quite a few American and English Jewish people and didn't find them to be any more or less likeable than anyone else, just Israeli's. I really can't understand it, is there something wierd in the drinking water over there or something?

TheDuderino

<P>

wes wrote: »

You fail to mention that the new born state of Israel was created by European colonists. European colonists were pretty much unwelcome any where on the planet when they showed up to nick other peoples land.</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Sure, it can certainly work, but the Israeli's are still taking land from the Palestinains, and the Palestinians are hopelessly divided.

</P>
<P> </P>
<P>The jews are a distinct people, not much conversion to it takes place. The overwhelming majority have roots back to before the diaspora.</P>
<P>So, short of finding and proving you have peoples of the original cities in Canaan, judea belongs to the jewish people. It was stolen by the romans, but belongs to the jewish people.</P>
<P>If Cromwell had evicted all the Irish from this island, would you still say their decendants have no right to return and reclaim their stolen land?</P>
<P> </P>

Cunny-Funt

Israel is one of those scumbag countries, yeah thats right, countries can be scumbags too. N.Korea, Iran, libya etc Only difference is the US support them.

Jewish people are fine, a lot of jews are very unhappy with Israel too, does that mean they hate themselves? Lol...

TomTom

I had a row with two israeli guys in australia on Fraiser island who started going mental at me for cooking sausages on a shared pan. There were not even in our group so they were not entitled to use the pan or any cooking facilities, they had their own. They just wanted a row. There were nasty as hell to some other nationalities in the group but they were also outnumbered by about 35 to 2. We were anti-semites according to them when people started to argue back agains their constant stream of abuse and snide comments towards people. I called them racist and they were flabergasted that I could percieve them as so, yet there were making fun of a German girl non stop due to her countries history.

I have yet to meet someone from Israel that I like. I am not anti-semetic I have no problem with Jewish people or their beliefs.

philstar

My name is URL wrote: »

they seem to have a victim mentality that they just can't get over

oh ya:rolleyes: and are we any better, 800 years of oppression and all that

Kipperhell

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Jewish people are fine, a lot of jews are very unhappy with Israel too, does that mean they hate themselves? Lol...

They refer to them as "Self Hating Jews". The documentary showed one guy who was refused Israel passport due to a book he wrote even though his parents survived the concentration camps. They accused him of being a holocaust denier.:eek:

In fairness he seemed like a bit of of an ass very much in the same vein as Sinead O'Connor. I wouldn't deny she is Irish though.

A lot of the comments in the documentary were very similar to the way some Irish people go on.

HalloweenJack

Kipperhell wrote: »

Am I missing something?

Hasn't the Irish government always been supportive of the Palestine struggle? We have a bit of a tradition of supporting revolutionary struggles.

I imagine that'd be enough for them.

Kipperhell

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Hasn't the Irish government always been supportive of the Palestine struggle? We have a bit of a tradition of supporting revolutionary struggles.

I imagine that'd be enough for them.

Well it would really depend on what you call support. UN troops and humanitarian aid combined with calls for proper open discussions would not be something I call support. Israel became a state by the skin of its teeth.

I would not consider Ireland supports revolutionary causes but supports discussion. It is fair to say that Palestine has as much a claim to the lands as the Jewish people do. There are people who remember living in houses that they owned for generations which were taken from them and then simply given to other people. On any level that does not seem to be fair. It isn't like it was just a change in regime. I would not consider Palestine's cause as revolutionary it is closer to a fight against occupation. It is not a simple issue one way or the other.

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

They refer to them as "Self Hating Jews". The documentary showed one guy who was refused Israel passport due to a book he wrote even though his parents survived the concentration camps. They accused him of being a holocaust denier.:eek:

Norman Finkelstein? He also lost his tenure at DePaul University for what he wrote.

In my pro-Palestine phase I would have read a lot of his stuff. I've moderated quite a bit on the issue though, it's not as simple as blame Israel for everything.

Morlar

Jakkass wrote: »

Norman Finkelstein? He also lost his tenure at DePaul University for what he wrote.

In my pro-Palestine phase I would have read a lot of his stuff. I've moderated quite a bit on the issue though, it's not as simple as blame Israel for everything.

I don't think you could describe Finkelstein as a 'blame israel for everything' kind of author. The book he got in most trouble for was called 'The Holocaust Industry' which focused on the organised shakedown of Swiss banks and German govt by a myriad of jewish advocacy groups who then filtered the billions to political causes (in israel) rather than to the individuals it was intended for.

He is a jewish professor and both his parents survived Auschwitz relatively unscathed yet his opponents (people like that charmer Alan Dershowitz) have no hesitation to describe him as anti semitic holocaust denier. They hounded him out of his job as a result of his book too. The ADL who are primarily responsible are absolutely shameful scumbags in my opinion.

philologos

Morlar wrote: »

I don't think you could describe Finkelstein as a 'blame israel for everything' kind of author. The book he got in most trouble for was called 'The Holocaust Industry' which focused on the organised shakedown of Swiss banks and German govt by a myriad of jewish advocacy groups who then filtered the billions to political causes (in israel) rather than to the individuals it was intended for.

He is a jewish professor and both his parents survived Auschwitz relatively unscathed yet his opponents (people like that charmer Alan Dershowitz) have no hesitation to describe him as anti semitic holocaust denier. They hounded him out of his job as a result of his book too. The ADL who are primarily responsible are absolutely shameful scumbags in my opinion.

I know who he is, I've read some of his books (Beyond Chutzpah, but also The Image and the Reality of the Israel - Palestine conflict).

I now think, after reading other history books of Modern Israel's history that the Palestinians are not as blame free as people sometimes like to suggest.

I also know of the whole Dershowitz issue.

Nodin

....the man behind a great deal of that was Alan Dershowitz, who rather famously used the Nazis as an example of why toture was effective....
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010832

getz

Victor wrote: »

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

you are very correct,ireland with the help of the church has a passed of anti semitism,that is going to take time to go away,you can see it on these threads even now,in irelands early days, [1945 ] the department of justice and immigration policy, said,quote;it is the policy of the [irish republic] department of justice to restrict the immigration of jews.[nation archives ireland, DT 69/8027,24 september 1945. it also says more but the rest is very nasty

Morlar

getz wrote: »

you are very correct,ireland with the help of the church has a passed of anti semitism,that is going to take time to go away,you can see it on these threads even now,in irelands early days, [1945 ] the department of justice and immigration policy, said,quote;it is the policy of the [irish republic] department of justice to restrict the immigration of jews.[nation archives ireland, DT 69/8027,24 september 1945. it also says more but the rest is very nasty

Utter bull**** and blown 1billion percent out of ALL Reasonable proportion.

One 'pogrom' in Limerick in which not one single hand was placed on not one single jewish person.

Post ww2 we did not want our country flooded with jewish refugees as at that time the true extent of the situation was unknown, also this was at least partly due to anti-communism. So yes we did intentionally restrict jewish immigration.

That's it right there. How 'persecuted' and 'victimised' the jews in Ireland really are. Nonsense.

philologos

Victor wrote: »

The thing is, historically Ireland has been anti-Semetic primarily from church / DeVelera type origin. It was rather late in the day when Ireland and Israel established diplomatic relations. The is also that matter that the loudest Irish people on the issue of Israel-Palestine are distinctly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

One can say that DeValera was anti-Semitic, but the toleration of the Jewish community in Ireland was enshrined in the Irish Constitution from 1937 onwards. It doesn't particularly sound anti-Semitic to me.

wes

TheDuderino wrote: »

The jews are a distinct people, not much conversion to it takes place. The overwhelming majority have roots back to before the diaspora.

Read up on the Berber Jews and Khazar Jews. There existence shows clearly that conversion to Judaism did happen on mass in the past. This may not be the case now, but at certain points in the past it did happen.

TheDuderino wrote: »

So, short of finding and proving you have peoples of the original cities in Canaan, judea belongs to the jewish people. It was stolen by the romans, but belongs to the jewish people.

Those people are the Palestinians. There the indigenous population:
Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry

Genetics prove your above claims to be simply incorrect.

The following interview in Haaretz is also interesting regarding the subject:
Shattering a 'national mythology'

TheDuderino wrote: »

If Cromwell had evicted all the Irish from this island, would you still say their decendants have no right to return and reclaim their stolen land?

**EDIT**
The main problem with you nonsensical example, is it was the Palestinian who are the original inhabitants. All they did was change the Religion to Christianity under the Romans, and then Islam under the Arabs, and during that period they also intermarried with the various invaders etc. All of that doesn't stop them being the indigenous people of the land.

There is genetic evidence that proves this, as well as plenty of historical evidence as well. There really is no need to repeat old Zionists myths, as they are very easy to tear apart.
**EDIT**