What IS Feminism? MOD WARNING POST 39

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 09:31PM #1

I'm a bit confused as to what feminism really means, and looking for opinions here.

What forms of behaviour (by women), are really hindering women's progress?

For Example:
Is it the promiscuous girl who is forward and goes with hundreds of men?
Or is it the shy, 'respectable' girl who waits for him to make a move? Is she not being weak, and deepening the gender-role that it is the man who makes the decisions?

Walls · 13-01-2010 09:40PM

Why do you imagine that the sexual decisions made by anyone are 'hindering women's progress'?

I'm reading between the lines here, but you seem to be implying that Feminism is about either refusing sex to men or giving it 'to hundreds'.

It is not about sex. It is not about refusing sex. It is about realising that the oppression of women that has been occurring for generations is not just overt, but implicit in a lot of our society. The reasons this has been happening is because it suits not just 'men' but mainly those men with money (society has a way of punishing any free thinkers, not just those women). The WAY that this happens is by a lot of unspoken assumptions that are bred into us from birth and that take a lot of effort, and patience, to overcome.

Can I ask, why did you ask the question? Anything specific that brought it up?

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 09:47PM

missusblagh wrote:

What IS Feminism?

Good question.

A substantial percentage of women who think they're feminists are actually just angry people who are confusing their own anger at the world with women's rights.

For example, Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin.

I consider myself a feminist. I believe women should be encouraged to do whatever they want, and should not be judged even if we disagree with their choices. I also think it is a disgrace that men are still paid more than women, or that men are considered more capable for certain jobs.

Saying all that, I am aware men and women are different and should not be considered equal for every single thing. For example, men are stronger than women, etc.

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 09:57PM

you seem to be implying that Feminism is about either refusing sex to men or giving it 'to hundreds'.

I don't mean to imply this, I was just giving an example. (hence 'for example')
I think modern-day oppression of women is implicit, as you say. From what I gather, it doesn't take a very obvious or tangible form, which is why I'm wondering what it really is.

I bring it up because it's something I've been wondering about for a while. I feel, and see, discrimination so often but can never really explain without it seeming trivial.

unspoken assumptions

What are these assumptions?

ashyle · 13-01-2010 10:17PM

OP, a modern day feminist is a person that believes that people should be treated equally regardless of gender. Not really understanding what you mean to be a hindrence to feminism??

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:21PM

ashyle wrote: »

OP, a modern day feminist is a person that believes that people should be treated equally regardless of gender.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, as feminism is about women's rights, not people's rights.

Nervous Wreck · 13-01-2010 10:23PM

ashyle wrote: »

OP, a modern day feminist is a person that believes that people should be treated equally regardless of gender. Not really understanding what you mean to be a hindrence to feminism??

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, as feminism is about women's rights, not people's rights.

Where is anything different implied?

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:26PM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Where is anything different implied?

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just pointing out that it is slightly inaccurate to say a feminist is a person who believes people should be treated equally regardless of gender.

For example, feminist theory has very little about men's rights; it's all about women's rights.

So it is more accurate to say a feminist is a person who believes women should be treated equally to men.

ashyle · 13-01-2010 10:28PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, as feminism is about women's rights, not people's rights.

I'm talking about modern day feminists here. ie not the same as first wave (suffragettes) or second waves of feminism. Women are people too you know

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:29PM

ashyle wrote: »

I'm talking about modern day feminists here. ie not the same as first wave (suffragettes) or second waves of feminism. Women are people too you know

Sure, but feminism isn't about fighting for men's rights, it's about fighting for women's rights, hence it is about women, not people.

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 10:30PM

I get the generic idea of feminism.

I just don't know what it really means.
I guess what I'm asking are : What are the modern manifestations of sexism?

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 10:31PM

Woops!
Sorry for the hick grammar there.

Walls · 13-01-2010 10:32PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

A substantial percentage of women who think they're feminists are actually just angry people who are confusing their own anger at the world with women's rights.

This is a curious response! Why do you need to state that some Feminists aren't feminists, they're just angry women? It seems to me, and I recognise I'm not speaking from a full understanding of your views, as if you think some women are just plain stupid.

missusblagh wrote: »

What are these assumptions?

Okay, well, the assumptions start from birth. Look in most children's toy catalogues, and you'll see that the boys get toys that make, break, fix and repair. The girls get toys that clean, iron, feed others and make house. Boys are blue, girls are pink (this by the way is pure affectation, at one point in European History boys got pink and girls got blue).

Common assumptions I'm listing off the top of my head are
Women are connected to nature, are more emotional, are prone to illogical thinking, care greatly about their appearance so as to please men, don't like sex, don't enjoy mathematics or any of the science subjects, want babies if they are feminine and don't want babies if they are not feminine, are not ambitious and don't want careers, are great home makers, seek to avoid conflict, are less smart than men and don't make as good decisions....

Men don't feel emotions, don't care as much about children and don't bond with them as much, are not connected to nature and spirituality, love beer, love football, are logical, the best scientists, the best politicians, the best military leaders, are physically stronger than women, are sexually assertive, aren't clean or tidy, make and deal with money better, drive better, argue better, and rational and calm.

Anyone else want to add to this?

spurious · 13-01-2010 10:32PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Sure, but feminism isn't about fighting for men's rights, it's about fighting for women's rights, hence it is about women, not people.

What rights do women have that people don't have?

Feminism is the (to many apparently) startling idea that gender should not be a reason to treat people in a lesser or better way. A feminist would absolutely stand up for any man who was being treated in a lesser way because he was a man.

Walls · 13-01-2010 10:35PM

missusblagh wrote: »

I get the generic idea of feminism.

I just don't know what it really means.
I guess what I'm asking are : What are the modern manifestations of sexism?

Okay, I have you now. I'm going to post up a list that is quite well known at this stage, and it is called the 'Male Privilege Checklist', taken from this blog here; http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

ashyle · 13-01-2010 10:35PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Sure, but feminism isn't about fighting for men's rights, it's about fighting for women's rights, hence it is about women, not people.

Yeah but modern day feminists would have a problem with a man being discriminated against on grounds of his gender.
There is no definitive answer, that's how I look at it anyway.

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:38PM

Walls wrote: »

This is a curious response! Why do you need to state that some Feminists aren't feminists, they're just angry women? It seems to me, and I recognise I'm not speaking from a full understanding of your views, as if you think some women are just plain stupid.

That's a weird interpretation of what I was trying to say.

Most definitely a percentage of feminists are just angry people. I can give you an example:

A friend of mine was doing a Ph.D in women's studies at a UK university. A couple of heterosexual women in her department chose to be lesbian because they hated men so much. She ended up dropping out because she felt her department was dishonest in its goals -- it was less about women's rights and more about anger.

I would have a similar opinion about some of the men in the men's rights movement btw. In fact, all movements attract angry people.

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:41PM

spurious wrote: »

What rights do women have that people don't have?

Well feminism is about the rights women don't have, but to answer your question, you should see what rights men have regarding their children when they split up with their partner.

Nervous Wreck · 13-01-2010 10:41PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just pointing out that it is slightly inaccurate to say a feminist is a person who believes people should be treated equally regardless of gender.

For example, feminist theory has very little about men's rights; it's all about women's rights.

So it is more accurate to say a feminist is a person who believes women should be treated equally to men.

Yes but part and parcel of that is gender equality. I.e. It'd be fairly hypocritical for so-called feminists to believe that they deserve more rights (if that even makes sense) than men. I doubt you'd find any actual feminists who would argue as such. Ergo, equal rights across genders is implied by default in feminism.

Silverfish · 13-01-2010 10:43PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Well feminism is about the rights women don't have, but to answer your question, you should see what rights men have regarding their children when they split up with their partner.

I don't think anyone is debating whether feminism is right or wrong in this thread. They are explaining what feminism is. If you would like to discuss men's rights or lack thereof, perhaps another thread would be more suitable.

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:43PM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Yes but part and parcel of that is gender equality. I.e. It'd be fairly hypocritical for so-called feminists to believe that they deserve more rights (if that even makes sense) than men. I doubt you'd find any actual feminists who would argue as such. Ergo, equal rights across genders is implied by default in feminism.

But if your logic is correct feminist books would be about people. They're not, they're about women...

But anyway, let's not get bogged down on this.

Walls · 13-01-2010 10:43PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's a weird interpretation of what I was trying to say.

Most definitely a percentage of feminists are just angry people. I can give you an example:

A friend of mine was doing a Ph.D in women's studies at a UK university. A couple of heterosexual women in her department chose to be lesbian because they hated men so much. She ended up dropping out because she felt her department was dishonest in its goals -- it was less about women's rights and more about anger.

I would have a similar opinion about some of the men in the men's rights movement btw. In fact, all movements attract angry people.

Really, all? I don't agree, I'm afraid. Political movements, yes, but things like the Catholic church, philosophy, not so much. You might think I'm hair splitting but you see what I'm getting at.

And while the experience at the UK uni is extreme, it is anecdotal - I'm not going to be able to go along with that one. To me, feminism is pure common sense. There simply is no other possible suggestion, women and men are equal.

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:44PM

Silverfish wrote: »

I don't think anyone is debating whether feminism is right or wrong in this thread. They are explaining what feminism is. If you would like to discuss men's rights or lack thereof, perhaps another thread would be more suitable.

Oh I'm not debating if feminism is right or wrong (I think it's right).

I'm just saying it's about promoting women's rights, it's not about promoting women's and men's rights.

Nervous Wreck · 13-01-2010 10:46PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

But if your logic is correct feminist books would be about people. They're not, they're about women...

But anyway, let's not get bogged down on this.

Look, this is basically just semantics. What I'm saying is that if feminism is about affording women the same rights as men, it is then, by it's very nature, about creating equality between genders.

Walls · 13-01-2010 10:53PM

Okay, there is a history here. Feminism sought greater womens' rights, on the grounds of equality. There was also a growing movement that sought to regain the suppressed history of women, the history that supported the view of women as leaders, thinkers, innovators.

The academic study of this history, and also of the semantics, linguistics and politics of oppression led to schools of thought that realised much of received wisdom was just that; received. Given. Taken like a tablet without any thought. Therefore, it was reasoned, much of the construct of society, of the view of the genders, the creation of the establishment, is false and misleading, designed to protect those in power. Gender is a contruct, it is argued, a mirage that supports the status quo and is a foil for the truth.

So, following on from that is the realisation that the roles of men are not real. They serve, as much as the roles of women served.

That is why Feminism will often ask questions about the position of men and of those that are oppressed. There is a solidarity that exists in such cases (hopefully), and that is why you'll have folks seeing feminism as having a wide range.

AARRRGH · 13-01-2010 10:53PM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Look, this is basically just semantics. What I'm saying is that if feminism is about affording women the same rights as men, it is then, by it's very nature, about creating equality between genders.

But only from the perspective of women's rights.

If your statement was totally correct, feminism would be called "equality". It's not...

Seriously if you read any books on feminist theory you'll notice they don't have many chapters devoted to areas where men are lacking in rights.

Sorry to sound pedantic, but I think it's important to be accurate.

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 10:59PM

I think the 'men's checklist' is a good summary of modern discrimination.

I might add to that, how women have an assumed sense of submission.
Coming from things like:
In films, they're rarely the hero - things like that.

I have another question: What can I do , as an individual, to prevent these things?

I think there are so many people that are unaware of the significance of these 'small' things.

Wibbs · 13-01-2010 11:04PM

Feminism (and masculinism even) for me anyway should be about seeking to build a society where gender and all its rainbow of preferences has a choice to be the best reflection of the individual regardless of gender.

Those choices may make some uncomfortable too. The man who wants to be the "house husband" shouldnt be looked down upon or lose out as a valuable member of society, much as the woman who doesnt want that shouldnt. Or the man or woman who decides that they want to remain a virgin until marriage should be afforded the same respect as the man or woman swinging from the rafters every night. All too often each societies "freedom" is baised towards the definition of "freedom" at the time. Freedom is all about choice and the ability of a society to embrace and encourage that choice.

Basically and as much as is practical a society where the individual is a full part of society but has free expression as individuals so long as they dont harm themselves or the society. Humanism FTW.

ashyle · 13-01-2010 11:04PM

I think someone has an essay for homework...:P

missusblagh · 13-01-2010 11:28PM

Yep , and it's all written for me now

No just joking :P

BumbleB · 13-01-2010 11:33PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_feminism

Feminism is a thread that frequently reoccurs in the ladies lounge (which is fair enough) that always involves some kind of man bashing of some sort .This thread here appears to be bitter and one sided . I mean beautiful people get life easier than less attractive people why don't we hate them to.

Some of the things in the checklist are ridiculous almost to the point of being whingy really.

I mean as a man should I be pissed off that girls get served before me every time in a pub and that they get into clubs and pubs ridiculously easy.And also that they can get drinks paid for them all night.They can skip the whole queue in the chipper and no one bats an eyelid.

Last year I was seeing a finnish girl and I was amazed at the equality there .Theyre also very quick to pull you up on things pertaining to feminism ,for example I was talking to a group of her friends about budhism and they were stipulating that it was a mascaline kind of religion ,now in all the time I've studied it that would have never crossed my mind . Also girls ask the guys out which is brilliant.......:D

I mean its nice to have equality and I'm all for it ,but are women prepared to go on building sites ,or be conscripted for military service like the israeli girls.

What IS Feminism? *MOD WARNING POST 39*

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What IS Feminism? MOD WARNING POST 39