Longford Cathedral on fire

philologos · 28-12-2009 06:31PM

truthisfree wrote: »

Quit putting words in my mouth!

I have never stated that this building was not important to many people, everyone knows it was important to a lot of people.

Perhaps you should allow people to discuss the actual damage to the building rather than discussing child abuse which is off topic?

truthisfree wrote: »

So what is my agenda, I know what yours is, evangelism, selling your own brand of Christianity, I defend your right to do this but you know full well that you can never sell a lie to me.

What's my brand of Christianity? More importantly, where have I proselytised in this thread?

As for claiming that it is a "lie" this is further showing your agenda to attack Catholicism rather than dealing with the actual subject. A cathedral burning.

If you read my original post, I posted on this thread to offer my sympathies to the people of Longford, especially those who are a part of the Roman Catholic community there.

truthisfree wrote: »

I can see 100% can see why people would be upset over this building, but there was no loss of life, no injury whatsoever.

How about showing a bit of sympathy then rather than bringing child abuse into it?

truthisfree wrote: »

I can understand a sentimental attachment to the building for the people who attended there frequently. I cannot for a second see anything in this incident that will make people question their beliefs in Catholicism, God or the afterlife, why would it?

Why would a burning cathedral cause people to question their faith? If people choose to believe that is their own prerogative.

truthisfree wrote: »

It will be re-built, maybe, I am not as sure as I was but I would like to see it used again, personally I think it would serve better as something other than a church, people may well disagree and they are entitled to more than I am as they will be prepared to fund it.

This is your agenda. People in Longford choose out of their own will to believe, if that is their choice, it is only right and proper that they should have a place to worship even in a secular society.

truthisfree wrote: »

As regards any agenda I may have, I feel I am objective, the negative reaction to anyone wondering whether there is a link with an aggrieved victim of the churches abuse is a normal reaction to an incident such as this. I will repeat as I have had to do many many times, I do not believe that this was arson, I would think that faulty wiring or whatever caused it, but I also could be wrong, I know little or nothing about forensics.

Your agenda is to bring child abuse into the situation. From reading elsewhere your agenda also seems to be to pursue your own agenda against Catholicism. This is irrelevant to this topic.

truthisfree · 28-12-2009 07:01PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Perhaps you should allow people to discuss the actual damage to the building rather than discussing child abuse which is off topic?

What's my brand of Christianity? More importantly, where have I proselytised in this thread?

As for claiming that it is a "lie" this is further showing your agenda to attack Catholicism rather than dealing with the actual subject. A cathedral burning.

If you read my original post, I posted on this thread to offer my sympathies to the people of Longford, especially those who are a part of the Roman Catholic community there.

How about showing a bit of sympathy then rather than bringing child abuse into it?

Why would a burning cathedral cause people to question their faith? If people choose to believe that is their own prerogative.

This is your agenda. People in Longford choose out of their own will to believe, if that is their choice, it is only right and proper that they should have a place to worship even in a secular society.

Your agenda is to bring child abuse into the situation. From reading elsewhere your agenda also seems to be to pursue your own agenda against Catholicism. This is irrelevant to this topic.

I have take you up once on how you are putting words in my mouth, completely twisting what I say and basically looking for an argument and not an intillegent discussion on this.

It is you who keep mentioning child abuse here when responding to me. Are you taking advantage of this for your own agenda?

My agenda if I have one is to see if people will discuss things that happen like this, honestly. There is an awful tendency for us Irish not to discuss and talk about terrible things that happen here. I think that we should talk about things that have happened and air them freely.

JupiterKid · 28-12-2009 07:04PM

truthisfree wrote: »

I have take you up once on how you are putting words in my mouth, completely twisting what I say and basically looking for an argument and not an intillegent discussion on this.

It is you who keep mentioning child abuse here when responding to me. Are you taking advantage of this for your own agenda?

My agenda if I have one is to see if people will discuss things that happen like this, honestly. There is an awful tendency for us Irish not to discuss and talk about terrible things that happen here. I think that we should talk about things that have happened and air them freely.

I fully agree.

Jackass, it seems to me that you are the one with the clear agenda.

lumpynomore · 28-12-2009 08:47PM

I'm all for free speech and everyone intitled to their opinion etc but I find it annoying of certain posters to keep going off topic and repeating themselves, yes we know you're highlighting clerical abuse, yes you don't have any particular love for the catherdral and/or the church in general, yes you're writing a book/born again christian/s**stirrer (delete as applicable) however I think the main point is being missed.

The thread is about the fire, not child abuse, not god is all powerful, not it was arson conspiracy theory. I have been refraing from posting as I didn't want to get dragged into such childish tit for tat that some posters seem to be relishing, perhaps waiting with bated breath at what rubbish they can post purely to upset and infuriate people, to get a reaction to make themselves feel better.

I think some posters need to realise for some the cathedral played an important part in their lives, for some, faith was connected with this building, for others it was a love of the memories and occasions in it.

Some posters on this thread could benefit from a large cup of cop on to be honest.

dollydimples82 · 28-12-2009 09:45PM

hi, i am new to this and i felt i had to leave a comment, i am from longford and still live here. i am by no means a good practising catholic, but i felt a deep loss on xmas morning looking up at the cathedral. i guess it was always there when you felt the need to go, always an open door. i was at many christenings, funerals, weddings, made my confirmation there and attended many masses. as a young child i would stare up at the beauitful ceiling, prehaps trying to count the beams, stare at the statues on the walls or wonder how this could be done.

:) when my brother died he was removed to st mels, and i felt close to him here, he never lost his faith in god but i did, i just couldnt understand why god could do this to him.

still i returned to st mels for his anniversary masses and always rememebered how the priest helped us with our loss, even opening the cathedral late on the sunday night to allow us say a prayer with my brother and spend some time with his remains, this is what the cathedral was about, especially to us longford people, it was not just a building, it was like a home for us when we needed it most. i dont condone child abuse but you cant tar every priest with the one brush, it wouldnt be right. please remember that.

MDFM · 28-12-2009 10:14PM

dollydimples82 wrote: »

hi, i am new to this and i felt i had to leave a comment, i am from longford and still live here. i am by no means a good practising catholic, but i felt a deep loss on xmas morning looking up at the cathedral. i guess it was always there when you felt the need to go, always an open door. i was at many christenings, funerals, weddings, made my confirmation there and attended many masses. as a young child i would stare up at the beauitful ceiling, prehaps trying to count the beams, stare at the statues on the walls or wonder how this could be done. :) when my brother died he was removed to st mels, and i felt close to him here, he never lost his faith in god but i did, i just couldnt understand why god could do this to him. still i returned to st mels for his anniversary masses and always rememebered how the priest helped us with our loss, even opening the cathedral late on the sunday night to allow us say a prayer with my brother and spend some time with his remains, this is what the cathedral was about, especially to us longford people, it was not just a building, it was like a home for us when we needed it most. i dont condone child abuse but you cant tar every priest with the one brush, it wouldnt be right. please remember that.

so sorry for your loss. I share your feelings, not long ago we lost our dad and his funeral was in st mels..many a funeral, christening, wedding i have being at in st mels..memories of school, novenas and childrens choir etc..all stem back to st mels..i'm not anyway religeous. i dont condone any child abuse, but my shock on xmas day to hear about the st mels, remembering the last time i was on the alter at dad's funeral, and prior to that at my best friend's daughter's christening brought home not only the physical loss but emotional loss this building holds..my religion usually stems to mass once a year - xmas day..but, i respect anyone else's devotion to it if it be a from a religeous perspective..child abuse is one thing, but a person's faith is a separate matter and i applaud anyone that can hold onto their devotion above all the scandals that have happened..(apologies for going off topic there).
memories are memories..and when dad died, childhood memories of going to mass religioulsy every sunday (not by my choice!!) to either 8am or 9.30am mass with dad, sitting in the same place every sunday..i can still rem who sat where and even now, the same people still sit in the same places..even dad poking me in the side asking me if i had money to throw in the basket,and now his anniversary is approaching, we wont attending it in the cathedral now, i'm saddened its gone...i look forward to seeing it rebuilt..who cares where the money comes from, its insured and if people want to raise funds, then what harm, its their choice to contribute..

Arkana · 29-12-2009 11:05AM

Without meaning any offense to anybody involved in this discussion - but I have an equal simple but important question to you all:

Despite the fact that this is a horrible incident (still there has been no evidence for arson but it cannot 100% be excluded) and a huge loss...
would you be equally upset if the destroyed building would have been a Pagan Temple or a Muslim Mosque?

Check your conscience, please...

MDFM · 29-12-2009 11:11AM

Arkana wrote: »

Without meaning any offense to anybody involved in this discussion - but I have an equal simple but important question to you all:

Despite the fact that this is a horrible incident (still there has been no evidence for arson but it cannot 100% be excluded) and a huge loss...
would you be equally upset if the destroyed building would have been a Pagan Temple or a Muslim Mosque?

Check your conscience, please...

if either were my place of worship throughout my life and i spent as much time in them as i did in the cathedral - then yes i would be upset.
if not and if either were a remarkable stunning building equally as beautiful as the cathedral, then yes, i would be sorry to see the building destroyed. add to that, i would also prob know people connected to either building and i would be sorry for them for their loss.

other than that, i'm lamenting the loss of a place that was very close to my heart, i dont have any battle with my conscience in that regard.

lumpynomore · 29-12-2009 01:02PM

MDFM wrote: »

if either were my place of worship throughout my life and i spent as much time in them as i did in the cathedral - then yes i would be upset.
if not and if either were a remarkable stunning building equally as beautiful as the cathedral, then yes, i would be sorry to see the building destroyed. add to that, i would also prob know people connected to either building and i would be sorry for them for their loss.

other than that, i'm lamenting the loss of a place that was very close to my heart, i dont have any battle with my conscience in that regard.

+1

I fail to see why so many people have such a huge issue with the people of Longford expressing their loss of the cathedral, is it so aborhant that someone might have a love for stones and mortar?
My loss is for the wonderful memories I have of St.Mel's, the many occassions I was in it, the fabulous interior and it saddens me that some posters continue to belittle what I feel, I don't ram my opinion down anyone's throat, call anyone names or rant and rave, yet all I continue to see on this thread is negativity, issues with people expressing their sorrow and people with agendas reg "bigging themselves up" and /or bumping their posts.
This isn't a popularity contest, as I've said before about cop on, if you don't agree with the thread don't bother posting just for the sake of s**tstirring or spouting your religious beliefs. Some of us here have better things to do with our time than read worthless tripe posted purely for upset. I feel sorry that some posters are so smallminded, and hope they never experience a loss or sadness or connection to a place if this is how they respond to others grief.

philologos · 29-12-2009 01:03PM

Arkana wrote: »

Without meaning any offense to anybody involved in this discussion - but I have an equal simple but important question to you all:

Despite the fact that this is a horrible incident (still there has been no evidence for arson but it cannot 100% be excluded) and a huge loss...
would you be equally upset if the destroyed building would have been a Pagan Temple or a Muslim Mosque?

Check your conscience, please...

I could at the very least sympathise with that situation even if I didn't share the same beliefs.

I'm not hugely upset even in this case but I do think it's sad to see such a wonderful building burn, but I would understand how others could be upset and perhaps reflect a bit of sensitivity, something which some other posters do not wish to do on this thread.

Keen2win · 29-12-2009 01:12PM

Fair play to anyone that can keep up with this thread! Wtf is going on?:)

Graces7 · 29-12-2009 01:35PM

No one is saying that there has not been a loss. Period.

Only that this loss is not the end of the world. Period.

To speak of "despair"?

Listen, please.

It is the sacraments that matter, not the place where they take place.

If you set too much store on buildings, then you lose the true meaning.

Buildings will always fail and fall. sooner or later. Always. Ireland is full of ruined churches; some of them very beautiful, many of them now burial grounds for loved ones sheltered in their walls.

And many of us cannot think of the Church as buidlings; why oppose us like this and with so much abuse and anger because we have a different viewpoint?

Why the anger? It makes no sense in any way.

And yes, many of take a wider view; many of us know abused people personally, and just as you care re friends and family, so do we, and it is hard for us to see them sidelined like this.

If you are at peace with what you think, as I truly am, then there will be no anger or abuse or outrage.

But is comes across that you are not; and we all have to face fully what the Church is and has done IF the Church we love is to survive and lift her head in these terrible times.

Is not that what matters? Not any of us or our views?

You will please excuse me now; this house has been cut off by snow and ice for two weeks now and more is starting to threaten.

Please, pray together for all whose lives are at risk from this harsh winter; let us unite now in that ?

A major snow event is now starting to sweep across the country as we have been suffering these last weeks.

Blessings and prayers for all to Jesus

See the weather boards her for excellent coverage.

dollydimples82 · 29-12-2009 01:47PM

Arkana wrote: »

Without meaning any offense to anybody involved in this discussion - but I have an equal simple but important question to you all:

Despite the fact that this is a horrible incident (still there has been no evidence for arson but it cannot 100% be excluded) and a huge loss...
would you be equally upset if the destroyed building would have been a Pagan Temple or a Muslim Mosque?

Check your conscience, please...

My conscience is clear, thank you. I am not going to justify why i feel a loss or saddness just because you obviously dont understand what our cathedral meant to us, it wasnt about the building as much as it is our memories, that are close to our hearts.:( I am in no doubt that the cathedral will be rebuilt but it will never be the same.

I attended st johns church in Longford for another funeral once and never felt out of place there either, it is a place of worship for many longford people also, and yes i think i would feel a sense of loss over it too. More the memories of my grandads funeral.

Perhaps you have never experienced moments like these???

lumpynomore · 29-12-2009 01:53PM

I didn't want to responde to any one poster but Grace you're the one bringing religion, beliefs and abuse victims into a thread about a Cathedral in Longford burning down. Many of us were highlighting our loss at this tragic event, no-one was disputing personal beliefs, clerical abuse etc but as highlighted many times on this thread there are relevant sections in this forum for these topics to be discussed, why highjack a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with these apart from it being a catholic building?

Also if you want to keep highlighting the clerical abuse victims, are there not investications into these matters? Are there not recourse and compensation (not that any money could make up for such trauma)? Do they not have a voice petitioning on their behalf? What about the countless thousands of other abuse victims with no recourse, no voice, sure if you highlight one type why not all others? But wait that wouldn't be a dig against the church in Ireland would it?

In nine pages of this thread how many posts are on topic? How many are people refusing to respect others feelings?

I would appeal to a moderator to shut down this sham of a thread as it appears some people are missing the point entirely.

Apologies if I offend anyone with my opinion but it's extremely frustrating to see the same posters post the same thing purely for their own self gratification and enjoyment.

Thought boards.ie was better than this to be honest.

dollydimples82 · 29-12-2009 01:54PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

Here's a picture of the inside, not pretty!

i just have one question for you micky 32, how did you get to take this photo?

I have been reading articles in all newspapers, listening to local news and yet the building has yet to be declared safe, hence delaying the forensics, yet you have a photo. I pass the cathedral every day and its under police guard day and night, i am not doubting that the photo is real, i have studied it and if i am correct it was taken from the right side of the alter?

Graces7 · 29-12-2009 02:09PM

Mickey; the photo is a clear expression of what the Irish Catholic Church has done ti itself and to its people.
All of them.

Thank you for posting it; it is an icon that we will keep in our hearts wih utter pain at the ruination bishops and clergy and religious have inflicted on us all.

Especially on those who cannot or will not see that.

The hand of God is in this, surely and truly.

Mickey has shown us this.

Over and out.

So telling that when prayer was asked for, no one took heed and yet more filthy language appeared.

lumpynomore · 29-12-2009 02:20PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Mickey; the photo is a clear expression of what the Irish Catholic Church has done ti itself and to its people.
All of them.

Thank you for posting it; it is an icon that we will keep in our hearts wih utter pain at the ruination bishops and clergy and religious have inflicted on us all.

Especially on those who cannot or will not see that.

The hand of God is in this, surely and truly.

Mickey has shown us this.

Over and out.

So telling that when prayer was asked for, no one took heed and yet more filthy language appeared.

Can I ask Grace where's the filthy language? Also gloating at a picture of a damaged building would surely be unchristian would it not?

I am probably doing more harm than good by responding to you as it's giving you all the gratification you seek, can I ask if your life is a peaceful and fufiled as you say, you are on an internet forum baiting people?

Ghost Buster · 29-12-2009 02:25PM

Two groups have popped up on facebook with a nice balance between them and make interesting reading between the hand wringing episodes.
R.I.P St Mels cathedral
and
Why restore St mels cathedral.

lumpynomore · 29-12-2009 02:34PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Two groups have popped up on facebook with a nice balance between them and make interesting reading between the hand wringing episodes.
R.I.P St Mels cathedral
and
Why restore St mels cathedral.

Thanxs for that, know which one I'm joining.

MDFM · 29-12-2009 02:42PM

Graces7 wrote: »

No one is saying that there has not been a loss. Period.

Only that this loss is not the end of the world. Period.

To speak of "despair"?

Listen, please.

It is the sacraments that matter, not the place where they take place.

If you set too much store on buildings, then you lose the true meaning.

Buildings will always fail and fall. sooner or later. Always. Ireland is full of ruined churches; some of them very beautiful, many of them now burial grounds for loved ones sheltered in their walls.

And many of us cannot think of the Church as buidlings; why oppose us like this and with so much abuse and anger because we have a different viewpoint?

Why the anger? It makes no sense in any way.

And yes, many of take a wider view; many of us know abused people personally, and just as you care re friends and family, so do we, and it is hard for us to see them sidelined like this.

If you are at peace with what you think, as I truly am, then there will be no anger or abuse or outrage.

But is comes across that you are not; and we all have to face fully what the Church is and has done IF the Church we love is to survive and lift her head in these terrible times.

Is not that what matters? Not any of us or our views?

You will please excuse me now; this house has been cut off by snow and ice for two weeks now and more is starting to threaten.

Please, pray together for all whose lives are at risk from this harsh winter; let us unite now in that ?

A major snow event is now starting to sweep across the country as we have been suffering these last weeks.

Blessings and prayers for all to Jesus

See the weather boards her for excellent coverage.

do you really have such difficulty in understanding that this thread is about the burning of the cathedral?
you appear to have serious other issues..i suggest maybe you deal with them elsewhere or get help?
either that learn to respect other people's views and emotions.

philologos · 29-12-2009 02:44PM

lumpynomore wrote: »

Thanxs for that, know which one I'm joining.

Considering R.I.P St Mel's Cathedral has 1,600 members, and the one questioning whether it should restored has 3 members. I know which I'd join too

Ghost Buster · 29-12-2009 03:59PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Considering R.I.P St Mel's Cathedral has 1,600 members, and the one questioning whether it should restored has 3 members. I know which I'd join too

Hi there.
I dont think this is a competition. Irish folk are allowed have opinions and both these groups are expressing them. I have joined both and see the validity of both.
The fact that one has 1600 and the other has 3 is relevant how?
One was set up on Dec 25th and the other appeared a few hours ago on today Dec 29th.
There seems to be bitter opposition within the irish psyche to open civil debate.
From the tone of the two replies I can guess which you will and wont join but will reserve comment.

silver campaign · 29-12-2009 04:04PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Mickey; the photo is a clear expression of what the Irish Catholic Church has done ti itself and to its people.
All of them.

Thank you for posting it; it is an icon that we will keep in our hearts wih utter pain at the ruination bishops and clergy and religious have inflicted on us all.

Especially on those who cannot or will not see that.

The hand of God is in this, surely and truly.

Mickey has shown us this.

Over and out.

So telling that when prayer was asked for, no one took heed and yet more filthy language appeared.

Does that mean you'll be ****in' off now? Have you not realised that nobody contributing to this thread is interested in the ****e you are spouting. There are other forums for you to voice your opinions.

In relation to where the photo came from, it looks like a poor quality mobile phone picture. It could have been taken by anyone who had access to the scene, a fire man, guard even a priest and circulated via text message. I don't think it was necessarily photographed by Mickey.

road_high · 29-12-2009 04:15PM

Tops off a sh!tty year for Longford really doesn't it. The landmark of Longford destroyed but not the heart of the people. Ah well, look forward to 2010 and the Cathedral will be restored.

philologos · 29-12-2009 04:18PM

Ghost Buster: I'm implying that the real concern that people have seems to be in restoring the Cathedral. The other is using this as an opportunity to spew anti-Catholicism. Fair enough point I would have thought?

Ghost Buster · 29-12-2009 04:27PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Ghost Buster: I'm implying that the real concern that people have seems to be in restoring the Cathedral. The other is using this as an opportunity to spew anti-Catholicism. Fair enough point I would have thought?

The fire in St mels, its restoration and opposition to the Catholic Church cannot be mutually exclusive.
Why shouldnt there be opposition to the catholic church. There is good reason and has been for years and years before the clerical abuse and its institutional cover up came to light.
But whats the issue with the "Why restore St mels' group. Its a valid question to a huge amount of people I would imagine. Reasoned debate is welcome on it.

dollydimples82 · 29-12-2009 04:49PM

'why restore st mels?'

I think that in light of what abuse was carried out by the priest or lay people, that you cant not restore a building such as st mels because of this. As i have previously stated i am by no means a good practising catholic or do i condone child abuse of any discription but i would be horrified if st mels was not restored.

I have heard a lot of gossip since st mels was burnt and the one that annoys me most is that people are suspecting arson, how in the name of god can you set fire to a place of worship because of child abuse, this is not going to achieve anything, as far as i am concerned the only way to get justice for such abuse is to see the priest or lay person responsible for such abuse been punished, we have to stop labelling all priest the same because of what some did. (sorry for going on):mad:
It has been a place of worship for many people for many years and if you consider all that hard work and labour that people put into building this fine cathedral, i think it should be restored for them if no one else. There are lots of ruins of old churches around ireland, we dont need another one, and even though i have no experience in building or anything like that i would be honoured to give my time to help build st mels back to the full glory it once was and hopefully will be once again.

philologos · 29-12-2009 04:55PM

It's going to be restored irrespective of what people think. The site is owned by the Roman Catholic Church. I don't see what reason they would have not to restore it.

Ghost Buster · 29-12-2009 05:05PM

dollydimples82 wrote: »

'why restore st mels?'

I think that in light of what abuse was carried out by the priest or lay people, that you cant not restore a building such as st mels because of this. As i have previously stated i am by no means a good practising catholic or do i condone child abuse of any discription but i would be horrified if st mels was not restored.
I have heard a lot of gossip since st mels was burnt and the one that annoys me most is that people are suspecting arson, how in the name of god can you set fire to a place of worship because of child abuse, this is not going to achieve anything, as far as i am concerned the only way to get justice for such abuse is to see the priest or lay person responsible for such abuse been punished, we have to stop labelling all priest the same because of what some did. (sorry for going on):mad:
It has been a place of worship for many people for many years and if you consider all that hard work and labour that people put into building this fine cathedral, i think it should be restored for them if no one else. There are lots of ruins of old churches around ireland, we dont need another one, and even though i have no experience in building or anything like that i would be honoured to give my time to help build st mels back to the full glory it once was and hopefully will be once again.

I agree with you in some of what you say and neither am i a Catholic. I was raised as one but defected this year through countmeout.ie
But you asked - "how in the name of god can you set fire to a place of worship because of child abuse,"
If you read The Ryan report (I can post it if you cant find it on line) there is a section on what effect all the different forms of child abuse can have on the resulting adult mind. Its frightening and essentially means that there are walking time bombs in this country. Very sad, pitiable disturbed folk, angry as hell and out for justice. They arent getting it through normal means and so will inevitably get it them selves. I dont agree but i cannot lecture these folk.
I hope this wasnt arson but if not its just a matter of time before such events happen.

philologos · 29-12-2009 05:10PM

I can't help but think you're bringing an external agenda into this. Do you not think that it is hard for these people to lose a church that had sentimental value to them?

Longford Cathedral on fire

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