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To the militant athiests from this thread....

13567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    AH Now I get you,but for say the census wht would you write down?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    Seloth wrote: »
    AH Now I get you,but for say the census wht would you write down?

    Probably roman catholic as usual but as i get older my opinions on the subject are getting stronger so perhaps next time I will write athiest, either way neither will play on my mind, I try make a point (excluding some arguments i get drawn into :p) of letting relgion(all types) take no effect on my life whatsoever. And yes I realise the irony of posting here but I cant help a good discussion sometimes!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    RIGHT!!!!
    Lets get all the inaccurate bullschite out of the way.

    The history of Christmas.
    In the Western world, the birthday of Jesus Christ has been celebrated on December 25th since AD 354, replacing an earlier date of January 6th. The Christians had by then appropriated many pagan festivals and traditions of the season, that were practiced in many parts of the Middle East and Europe, as a means of stamping them out.

    There were mid-winter festivals in ancient Babylon and Egypt, and Germanic fertility festivals also took place at this time. The birth of the ancient sun-god Attis in Phrygia was celebrated on December 25th, as was the birth of the Persian sun-god, Mithras. The Romans celebrated Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of peace and plenty, that ran from the 17th to 24th of December. Public gathering places were decorated with flowers, gifts and candles were exchanged and the population, slaves and masters alike, celebrated the occasion with great enthusiasm.

    In Scandinavia, a period of festivities known as Yule contributed another impetus to celebration, as opposed to spirituality. As Winter ended the growing season, the opportunity of enjoying the Summer's bounty encouraged much feasting and merriment.

    The Celtic culture of the British Isles revered all green plants, but particularly mistletoe and holly. These were important symbols of fertility and were used for decorating their homes and altars.
    New Christmas customs appeared in the Middle Ages. The most prominent contribution was the carol, which by the 14th century had become associated with the religious observance of the birth of Christ.

    In Italy, a tradition developed for re-enacting the birth of Christ and the construction of scenes of the nativity. This is said to have been introduced by Saint Francis as part of his efforts to bring spiritual knowledge to the laity.

    Saints Days have also contributed to our Christmas celebrations. A prominent figure in today's Christmas is Saint Nicholas who for centuries has been honored on December 6th. He was one of the forerunners of Santa Claus.

    Another popular ritual was the burning of the Yule Log, which is strongly embedded in the pagan worship of vegetation and fire, as well as being associated with magical and spiritual powers.

    Celebrating Christmas has been controversial since its inception. Since numerous festivities found their roots in pagan practices, they were greatly frowned upon by conservatives within the Church. The feasting, gift-giving and frequent excesses presented a drastic contrast with the simplicity of the Nativity, and many people throughout the centuries and into the present, condemn such practices as being contrary to the true spirit of Christmas.

    The earliest English reference to December 25th as Christmas Day did not come until 1043.

    The Birth of Jesus
    In the Western world the birthday of Jesus Christ has been celebrated on December 25th since AD 354, partly to replace the pagan worship that was commonplace in those days. However, we can be fairly sure that Jesus wasn't actually born on that date.

    The Bible tells us that shepherds were staying out in the fields overnight when Jesus was born (Luke 2:8), but in that part of the world it would have been far too cold at night to do so in December. What is more likely is that He was born in the Spring, perhaps between March and May. Whatever the time of year, it is virtually impossible to identify the actual date.

    This situation is further complicated by the fact that the Christian scholar Dionysius Exiguus was asked by the Pope in AD 525 to calculate new cycles for fixing the date of Easter. However, he decided to base his calculations on the date of Jesus's birth. Unfortunately, it wasn't discovered until the 9th century that he got it badly wrong, by which time it was too late to change the calendar.

    He fixed the birth in the year 1 BC or AD 1 (Historians apparently can't agree which.) and began counting from the latter. But both earlier and later scholars agreed that Jesus was born at an earlier date. Indeed, it was eventually established that Herod the Great died in Spring of 4 BC. If Jesus had been born at the start of AD 1, as we currently have it, then Jesus would have been born some 4 or 5 years after Herod died. There is no way of accurately establishing the actual date of his birth, but it is most likely to have been between 5 and 6 BC.

    "Old" or "Little" Christmas
    Until the time of Julius Caesar the Roman year was organized round the phases of the moon. For many reasons this was hopelessly inaccurate so, on the advice of his astronomers, Julius instituted a calendar centred round the sun. It was decreed that one year was to consist of three hundred and sixty-five and a quarter days, divided into twelve months; the month of Quirinus was renamed 'July' to commemorate the Julian reform. Unfortunately, despite the introduction of leap years, the Julian calendar overestimated the length of the year by eleven minutes fifteen seconds, which comes to one day every on hundred and twenty-eight years. By the sixteenth century the calendar was ten days out. In 1582 reforms instituted by Pope Gregory XIII lopped the eleven minutes fifteen seconds off the length of a year and deleted the spare ten days. This new Gregorian calendar was adopted throughout Catholic Europe.

    Protestant Europe was not going to be told what day it was by the Pope, so it kept to the old Julian calendar. This meant that London was a full ten days ahead of Paris. By the time England came round to adopting the Gregorian calendar, in the middle of the eighteenth century, England was eleven days ahead of the Continent.

    A Calendar Act was passed in 1751 which stated that in order to bring England into line, the day following the 2nd of September 1752 was to be called the 14th, rather than the 3rd of September. Unfortunately, many people were not able to understand this simple manoeuvre and thought that the government had stolen eleven days of their lives. In some parts there were riots and shouts of 'give us back our eleven days!'

    Before the calendar was reformed, England celebrated Christmas on the equivalent of the 6th of January by our modern, Gregorian reckoning. That is why in some parts of Great Britain people still call the 6th of January, Old Christmas Day.

    If anyone else wants to stick with the actual facts and show that Christmas in actual fact has very little to do with the birth of a human called "Jesus" I suggest the following link: http://thehistoryofchristmas.com/

    ...I'm outa here to carry on with my pagan festival.

    * O' and OP, starting off a thread aggressively by addressing some Atheists as "militant" does nothing to further a stance that your just being impartial but a poster thread starter with a one sided agenda of provocation!
    p.s. Usually called a troll?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I think we've tolerated this nonsense too long, the Catholic church stuck a Mass on the same date as existing Solstice/Pagan piss-ups, now it seems that even most Christians can't even be arsed with that!

    Surely it's now time to start a campaign to "GET THE CHRIST OUT OF CHRISTMAS", and return this celebration to its original roots - consumerism, feasting and pressies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭achtungbarry


    Seloth wrote: »
    Nah they'll point out the pedo priests again...and the Crusades....Just reply with the Soviet Union lol :p


    There is one huge glaring point that those who point to evil regimes that were oficially atheist (such as the USSR) when either defending their chosen religion against charges that it incites violence or simply labelling atheism as evil.

    The crusades, the inquisition, the violent wiping out of native beliefs/cultures in conquered colonies, fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, modern day Christian terrorism (The National Liberation Front of Tripura, KKK, Army of God, The Lambs of Christ)all carried/carriy out violent acts specifically in the name of religion.*

    *not ignoring other factors of course. eg. race/politics but in all cases religion is a huge motivating and contributing factor.

    Regimes that were/are officially atheist eg. Soviet Union, North Korea,China did/do not carry out acts of violence in the name of atheism. These terrible acts were/are carried out in the name of their chosen political ideology (communism, facism etc) and above all as a way of holding on to and consolidating power.

    It is dishonest or maybe just uninformed to continually compare acts carried out by officially atheist regimes in the name of their ideologies and desire to cling on to power with acts carried out specifically in the name of religion.

    Yes, religious groups were wrongly persecuted under these regimes but only because they represented a threat to order and provided potential opposition as they did (admirably) in the likes of Poland. In other (usually right wing) regimes like Franco's, there was no need to surpress the Catholic Church (in this case) as they proved to be willing and useful allies to the regime.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    efb wrote: »
    Did Christians not just rob the pagan midwinter festival? Wasn't Jesus born in Sept?
    Don't tell that to the militant Christians :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Bloody Nipples


    This thread is the token red rag to the atheist bull.

    Unless you sincerely believe that you can change the trenchant opinions expressed here then this thread is a bigger waste of time than Neville Chamberlain's trip to Munich.

    Though no doubt I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,125 ✭✭✭lightening


    Lads, look at the OP's previous posts. He/she doesn't strike me as a "good christian". Very bad attitude and somewhat bigoted. Probably thinks going to mass makes him/her a good person.

    Xmas can be anything to anyone really. For me it's a time to see family you haven't seen in ages, to relax, give and receive gifts. It's a time to indulge kids and each other, a time to notice the small changes as the beginning of the end of winter comes on. It's been going on a long time before the birth of a Palestinian politician called Jesus Christ.

    So, OP, relax your cax and kick back, enjoy the holiday and stop making trouble for people and stop trying to rub people up! It's xmas!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    There is one huge glaring point that those who point to evil regimes that were oficially atheist (such as the USSR) when either defending their chosen religion against charges that it incites violence or simply labelling atheism as evil.

    The crusades, the inquisition, the violent wiping out of native beliefs/cultures in conquered colonies, fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, modern day Christian terrorism (The National Liberation Front of Tripura, KKK, Army of God, The Lambs of Christ)all carried/carriy out violent acts specifically in the name of religion.*

    *not ignoring other factors of course. eg. race/politics but in all cases religion is a huge motivating and contributing factor.

    Regimes that were/are officially atheist eg. Soviet Union, North Korea,China did/do not carry out acts of violence in the name of atheism. These terrible acts were/are carried out in the name of their chosen political ideology (communism, facism etc) and above all as a way of holding on to and consolidating power.

    It is dishonest or maybe just uninformed to continually compare acts carried out by officially atheist regimes in the name of their ideologies and desire to cling on to power with acts carried out specifically in the name of religion.

    Yes, religious groups were wrongly persecuted under these regimes but only because they represented a threat to order and provided potential opposition as they did (admirably) in the likes of Poland. In other (usually right wing) regimes like Franco's, there was no need to surpress the Catholic Church (in this case) as they proved to be willing and useful allies to the regime.

    People really cant take a joke can they.

    Here Im voting the thread be closed before the argument gets out of hand even more...it seemed to have quitened down but its resurging again and religion threads only seem to bring out fights lol.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Linoge


    Seloth wrote: »
    People really cant take a joke can they.

    Here Im voting the thread be closed before the argument gets out of hand even more...it seemed to have quitened down but its resurging again and religion threads only seem to bring out fights lol.

    Aww, typical, just because you are losing! jk:D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    And you honestly believe the majority of this months flavour contributors to that thread know this, assuming its even true?

    Come on (and by your statement, you seem to be acknowledging that Jesus was a real person born in a September at some point in our history)

    On the contrary, I think almost every athiest knows Christmas was originally a pagan festival. I think with the internet, and information so freely available is the worst thing that could ever happen to religion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭Maccattack


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)


    Do you think you've just laid an inescapable trap?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭achtungbarry


    Seloth wrote: »
    People really cant take a joke can they.

    Here Im voting the thread be closed before the argument gets out of hand even more...it seemed to have quitened down but its resurging again and religion threads only seem to bring out fights lol.

    LOL

    I've lost count how many times have I seen a religious apologist argument pulled asunder only for the poster to claim "it was a joke" and/or call for the thread to be closed.

    You've done both. Well done.

    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,310 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    lightening wrote: »
    Probably thinks going to mass makes him/her a good person.
    I doubt it, as he hasn't gone to mass in 6 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 Dantonio


    The initial multiple choice question is flawed and reeks of personal and closed minded bias.

    As a Practicing Atheist (I prefer that to "Militant Atheist"), I'll be celebrating Christmas. I'll enjoy the general atmosphere, my real Christmas tree, indulging in good food, seeing friends and family. I may even watch Ben-Hur or Ghandi on TV and take in a few Christmas carols. All the usual stuff....

    I won't be praying to any gods, saints or angels because that’s what people in Cults do and I'm not brainwashed even though my parents, teachers and priests had a good go at it for 18 years. Cults / Religions are a social virus. They have infected more people than AIDS and Cancer combined.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭gavney


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    You already answered your question before you even posed it, stating that Crimbo is a "great piss up", and a great event overall.

    Why can't atheists enjoy it? I mean, it's a couple of days off work - time when EVERYONE is off. you can do things you can't normally do at other times of year, spend time with family, give gifts?

    Why the F*** would anyone NOT want to take part in Christmas - atheists included????

    And why the hell would they celebrate something similar at another time of year??? Part of the joy of Christmas is that NEARLY EVERYONE celebrates it (well, in this country at least) at the same time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Blackhorse Slim


    Dantonio wrote: »
    The initial multiple choice question is flawed and reeks of personal and closed minded bias.

    As a Practicing Atheist (I prefer that to "Militant Atheist"), I'll be celebrating Christmas. I'll enjoy the general atmosphere, my real Christmas tree, indulging in good food, seeing friends and family. I may even watch Ben-Hur or Ghandi on TV and take in a few Christmas carols. All the usual stuff....

    I won't be praying to any gods, saints or angels because that’s what people in Cults do and I'm not brainwashed even though my parents, teachers and priests had a good go at it for 18 years. Cults / Religions are a social virus. They have infected more people than AIDS and Cancer combined.

    If you don't mind me asking, wtf is a practicing atheist? Other than that I agree with you :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Quint wrote: »
    On the contrary, I think almost every athiest knows Christmas was originally a pagan festival. I think with the internet, and information so freely available is the worst thing that could ever happen to religion

    In surmising, many historians and theologians put forth the superstition that there was too much end of the year festivals celebrating any number of pagan rituals/gods/religions for the catholic church in Rome to re-write history as "the victor..." often does.
    Instead, those using strong arm aggressive tactics, in Rome they used another saying - "if you can't beat them, join them".
    They then in AD 354 decided to invoke the "birth" of a human/preacher called Jesus/Yahweh into the period in order to circumvent the festive period, try and over further generations (which Rome knew it would take, they can be very slow and patient as we all know) create the illusion that December - especially the 25th - was actually and always was a Roman Catholic religious holiday - WHICH IT WASN'T.

    The religious congress that was held and happened centuries ago (year 681 "Council of Constantinople") at Constantinople (correct place I believe) and the previous most notably the Synod of Hippo in AD 393, which also by the way decided what was to be included in their "New" bible - the one we know today - incorporated into it only the books helped to put forth this idea amid others, for advantageous reasons to the then Church of Rome and aggressive pope that was then with an Emperor, trying to keep an empire together and using the then growing number of Catholics as a group reason for unity and stability.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Blackhorse Slim


    Defining characteristics of Christmas;

    Mass - Christian
    The birth of Christ - Christian, if at the wrong time of year
    Nativity - Christian, as above
    Giving presents - Pagan
    Feasting - Pagan
    Christmas Tree - Pagan
    Christmas Lights - Pagan
    Merrymaking - Pagan
    Holiday from work - Pagan
    Yule log - Pagan
    Holly/mistletoe - Pagan


    I'd be happy to stick to the non-Christian aspects of what you call Christmas, will you stick to the Christian ones?

    The list is not exhaustive, I'm sure others could add to it :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭plein de force


    you do know christianity hijacked the mid-winter festival celebrated around the 25th of december and took over the tradition of a big feast, christmas trees, decorations and present giving to celebrate the birth of christ?
    so if you really want to celebrate it in the christian sense of the word just go to mass as present giving, decorating and eating a feast pre-dates christianity, otherwise you'd be hypocritical, no?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭gavney


    Tha Gopher wrote: »


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)

    I find YOUR contradictions laughable. You recognise Christmas as a time of goodwill to your fellow man- yet you've started this thread ridiculing Atheists on Christmas Eve. You seem to even suggest that atheists shouldn't take part in Christmas fun, that they should go find their own time of year - how "inclusive" and "kind" of you!

    The reason YOU don't do anything half-Ramadan is because you weren't born in a muslim community. Also, Christmas is a much more appealing tradition. Ramadan is about fasting, Christmas is about stuffing your face and getting pissed and giving presents.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,089 ✭✭✭✭rovert


    lol Jesus nuthuggers


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Yay, another religion thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭slipss


    Seloth wrote: »
    lol thenyou cant really call yourself Christian,Like you cna say you were raised by it,but to claim to be christian and not believe in its core belifes is well a contradicition.

    I don't know, if you can be a secular Jew, why not a secular Catholic/Christian?

    Happy Christmass everyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭General Zod


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I don't know about you, but I try to be good to people, eat well, get pissed and enjoy myself every day of the year, and I'm a hardcore athiest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Militant atheists, pffft! :pac:

    Christmas is such a mish-mash of cultural ritual that no one sect has the right to call ownership. There has been present giving, tree decorating, feasting and kissing under the mistletoe from long before Christianity came on the scene.

    If you want to call someone a hypocrite because they call themselves an atheist and yet put up a nativity scene or attend mass then I could understand the argument. Yes, Christians adopted plenty of ancient rituals and tradition and for the past 1600 yrs or so it's been called Christmas but it's not fair to claim only Christians are allowed to celebrate this time of year and what it has represented for tens of thousands of years. After all, had Christianity never been popularised here - chances are it would still be a holiday involving feasting, presents and evergreens. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Ah yes us athiests hate christianity...We even set up purges and went to war to prove that no god exists.....oh sheet no wait....that was ye religious folk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,243 ✭✭✭truecrippler


    Ah yeah Christmas, good time of the year when we can all celebrate and give presents.

    OP, I hope you're not praying to your little star on top of your Christmas Tree and waiting for the return of ''Jesus'' are you?.. Not gonna happen.

    Merry Christmas ;).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,822 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I fail to see what celebrating the birth of santa has to do with Christianity. Merry everyone!!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)

    WTF are you talking about? Where do you get this sh!t? Athiests, all of them, hate christianity? WTF? Educate yourself before you post crap like that, really...


This discussion has been closed.
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