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To the militant athiests from this thread....

  • 24-12-2009 09:00AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)


«134567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Did Christians not just rob the pagan midwinter festival? Wasn't Jesus born in Sept?


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    efb wrote: »
    Did Christians not just rob the pagan midwinter festival? Wasn't Jesus born in Sept?

    Newstalk last night? Highfive

    Happy ****ing Yule! bitches.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    No, stuff I learned when I was 8. God bless World Book Encyclopedias, a much better read that the thick black book beside them... too far-fetched


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Tha Gopher


    efb wrote: »
    Did Christians not just rob the pagan midwinter festival? Wasn't Jesus born in Sept?

    And you honestly believe the majority of this months flavour contributors to that thread know this, assuming its even true?

    Come on (and by your statement, you seem to be acknowledging that Jesus was a real person born in a September at some point in our history)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭ihadu


    you didn't mention mass in your post. christmas has moved on to just represent a festive holiday with time off work and the exchanging of presents.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,212 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Reminds me of those Christians who let their kids trick or treat or believe sin Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

    Or perhaps some people should realise that it's not really that important what traditions people pick and choose - and those that pedantically analyse this stuff (not the OP, just generally) are morose humorless dogmatic trolls.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Dimithy


    I would assume a fair few people would know that Christianity used older festivals for their own to gain favour with the local populations.

    And christmas is no longer about jesus. Its more about family, presents and turkey. Lots of turkey


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    And you honestly believe the majority of this months flavour contributors to that thread know this, assuming its even true?

    Come on (and by your statement, you seem to be acknowledging that Jesus was a real person born in a September at some point in our history)

    Jesus almost certainly existed, just not as "special" as some of you lot think, maybe a different kind of "special".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭ihadu


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    And you honestly believe the majority of this months flavour contributors to that thread know this, assuming its even true?

    Atheists tend to investigate instead of blindly follow old men in dresses into little rooms to devulge persomal information to be judged by said men in dresses.

    Come on (and by your statement, you seem to be acknowledging that Jesus was a real person born in a September at some point in our history)

    J-Bone was real...but mental.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Its quite easy to do actually.
    Im an athiest and I quite enjoy christmas.
    Sure It isnt even about Jesus anymore.
    My family will not be going to mass on christmas morning, we haven't put a star or angel on top of our tree, and you wont find a crib in our house.
    Im looking forward to the cider, chocolate and presents. :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭IrishKnight


    Newtonmas ftw!


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,815 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    All hail the Glorious Tinsel and Reindeer, and Elfs, all such bastions of the Catholic Faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭robby^5


    2.

    In my own experience It's an occassion for kids to be excited about Santa and presents, drinking and eating too much with friends and family and giving/receiving lots of presents.

    It's purely a traditional event for me, nothing to do with Christianity at all...hijacked yore holiday bitchez :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you
    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents
    or
    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man
    You can "do Christmas" and still not be religious. After all, for many who are religious, it isn't done for religious reasons any more in my experience. It has become a materialistic event that occurs near the end of the year.

    There was more of a show of it when I was younger, my parents would act as if religion was a big thing to them, and not just at Christmas. As I grew older, though, it was clear they weren't as religious as they had made out.

    I give gifts because I don't want to be a selfish git, and I don't want to refuse gifts because you only come across as an ass when you do that.
    surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?
    Could you explain what you mean by that?
    If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.
    This reads to me as a similar line of thought to those religious people who ask "If you don't follow any religion, then how do you have morals, and not go out killing and robbing" except from the opposite position. As in, that atheists despise every single aspect of religion.

    There are things that religion says that are good. And its not because religion said them they are good, they are good because they are good. Sadly, it is because there is so much we object to (read: the nonsense) that we can not treat the fantastical as reality.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    And you honestly believe the majority of this months flavour contributors to that thread know this, assuming its even true?

    You'll find the vast majority of "Christian" events and festivals are actually converted events that already existed, the christians just stole them and "converted" them in an effort to promote their faith.

    Do some research before you post such un-informed rubbish

    Tell me this what does a fat man in a red coat who I might add is dressed the way he is because of Coca Cola (the red coat) (yes this is an actual fact) have to do with jesus?

    If you want to be uber religious surely "St Nick" should be dressed the way he was supposed to be instead of dressed in a red coat like a company wanted him to be in, Christmas as it stands today has very few links to religion for the vast majority of people and is simply a holiday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭PoleStar


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)

    The irony here is that the author of this post refers to "militant" atheists and yet it is his post that is filled with words such as "hatred", "despise".

    You will generally not find such language in the Atheism and Agnostics forum.

    Christmas nowadays is no more a Christian festival than Ramadan is. It is about spending time with family and friends and expressing how much you care about them. In many countries, people wish each other a happy holiday and ignore the Christian links. I have Muslim friends who even share in the holiday spirit and recognise the fun to be had by all.


    You refer to the contradictory atheists. Read the bible, its full of contradictions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Mena


    As a family, we don't do the xmas thing, don't do presents or any of that malarky, it's just another day, although living in the Western world we tend to get the day off :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭Smallbit


    I see Xmas as a sort of thanksgiving really - lots of family and friends gather, eat, drink, swap gifts, and maybe reflect on the year gone by.

    @OP - I don't see how anything the average christian does at xmas reflects religious belief in any way, apart from church on xmas morning. I'm all for changing xmas to 'winter solstice festival' if disgruntled god-botherers resent me enjoying 'their' feast!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,598 ✭✭✭positron


    A lot of very good reasons here:

    [Amazon.co.uk] The Atheist's Guide to Christmas


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I thought the OP would love this, given that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of christ.
    History
    For many centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born.[46] However, in the early eighteenth century, scholars began proposing alternative explanations. Isaac Newton argued that the date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere,[9] which in ancient times was marked on December 25.[47] In 1743, German Protestant Paul Ernst Jablonski argued Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a "paganization" that debased the true church.[8] In 1889, Louis Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was calculated as nine months after the Annunciation (March 25), the traditional date of the Incarnation.[48]

    Christian establishment

    There is no evidence scripturally or secularly that early Christians in the first century commemorated the birth of Jesus Christ. In fact, in keeping with early Jewish law and tradition, it is likely that birthdays were not commemorated at all. According to The World Book Encyclopedia: "early Christians considered the celebration of anyone's birth to be a pagan custom." (Vol. 3, page 416) Rather than commemorating his birth, the only command Jesus gave concerning any sort of commemoration of his life actually had only to do with his death (Luke 22:19). It was not until several hundred years after the death of Jesus Christ that the first instances of the celebration of Christmas begin to appear in the historical record. According to the new Encyclopedia Britannica, some who later claimed to be Christian likely "wished the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the 'birthday of the unconquered sun'." The festival was celebrated with similar customs (gift giving, feasting) that are done to celebrate Christmas today.

    The New Testament does not give a date for the birth of Jesus.[6][55] Around AD 200, Clement of Alexandria wrote that a group in Egypt celebrated the nativity on Pachon 25.[6] This corresponds to May 20.[56] Tertullian (d. 220) does not mention Christmas as a major feast day in the Church of Roman Africa.[6] However, in Chronographai, a reference work published in 221, Sextus Julius Africanus suggested that Jesus was conceived on the spring equinox, popularizing the idea that Christ was born on December 25.[57][58] The equinox was March 25 on the Roman calendar, so this implied a birth in December.[59] De Pascha Computus, a calendar of feasts produced in 243, gives March 28 as the date of the nativity.[60] In 245, the theologian Origen of Alexandria stated that, "only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod)" celebrated their birthdays.[61] In 303, Christian writer Arnobius ridiculed the idea of celebrating the birthdays of gods, which suggests that Christmas was not yet a feast at this time.[6]

    Also
    Incorrect birth date of Jesus

    Followers of the Jewish and Messianic religions have said that Jesus was born during or around the festival of Sukkot (which occurs between early September and early October every year), not in December.[60] There is also controversy concerning the precise date of December 25 as the birthday of Jesus. In certain religions and myths, the 25th of December is the day assigned to the celebration of various sun gods. Most notably, Sol Invictus ("The Unconquerable Sun"), originally a Syrian god that was later adopted as the chief god of the Roman Empire under Emperor Aurelian, is traditionally celebrated on the 25th of December, as are several gods associated with the winter solstice in many pagan traditions.[61] However, it is possible that December 25 was simply set aside for celebration by Christians, since Jesus' exact birthdate is unknown.

    At the very least Christians choose to place their date on the same day as another god's day was celebrated.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    Ya know the Church does acknowledge that he was born more likely around spring than December.And this common knowledge for the most part that Christmas was pushed into what date it is now for pre-Christan "Pagans",Heck we were taught that in primary and secondary school religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭Irjudge1


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    If you choose option 2, Im intrigued to know why, given that the church is apparently such a vile influence on the world. Personally I find a hatred of religion and an embracing of xmas to be laughable, surely you should organise a random day elsewhere in the year?

    I can imagine the response, "aw, cos all the other kids in my sons/ daughters class get christmas presents". Surely if all the other kids in the class get their big day out for communion and confirmation, so should yours by that logic? Santa is, after all, a character from Christian mythology. If you are a commited athiest and hate christian teaching in schools, Santa is mickey mouse offensive harmful nonsense that your kids should not be exposed to, end of debate.

    btw to point out, Im a Catholic by birth and I havent even been to Christmas mass in 7 odd years, but I find the contradictions of hardcore athiesm hilarious. I dont do anything half- Ramadan during Ramadan just to join in, if you despise Christinaity why hold a half celebration of gift giving/ receiving at this time of year?

    Dying to hear it :)

    There are Hardcore Atheists? Wow. Merry Christmas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,640 ✭✭✭Pushtrak


    Irjudge1 wrote: »
    There are Hardcore Atheists? Wow. Merry Christmas.
    Maybe we need to start a band?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭scanlas


    I'm an atheist and take part in the Christmas traditions simply because it's more enjoyable to do so than not to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    Come on (and by your statement, you seem to be acknowledging that Jesus was a real person born in a September at some point in our history)

    Very few people including atheists doubt that Jesus lived. The main area of contention is whether or not the New Testament is reliable, or whether Jesus really is what He said He was if we are to take the Gospel accounts seriously.
    mayordenis wrote:
    Jesus almost certainly existed, just not as "special" as some of you lot think, maybe a different kind of "special".

    Do you mind if I ask why do you think this? I can sympathise with such thinking to a certain degree because it was very much the same stance I took to Jesus and God a few years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    Sher my friend,whos family is completly muslim celebrate Christmas,putting up the decorations and stuff etc.

    I see allot of people are saying that its no longer about Jesus but tbh it never really was,Sure its ment to celebrate his "Birthday" but the deeper meaning of family bonding and people coming together seems to be the over all sense to it,as the way we celebrate it now.A mother,father and child huddled together in a bbarn or whatever and sheppards and kings,nearly an obviouse push at class diffence as well showing how they all come together...Were now its familys and friends...or like in the film last night about the WWI soldiers comming together for peace and celebration...Tis like Easter and Life,thus why we have choclate eggs...Dont ask me to explain the fecking Easter bunny though :D

    Holidays and traditions change,sure look at the siege of Derry,once celebrated by all it over time turned into a biased political celebration in the last 19 right through the 20th century until near its end.Halloween once celebrated as a "Pagan" New year is now...well masks and sweets ^^


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22 WorldWontListen


    Tha Gopher wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63636991&posted=1#post63636991


    Just wondering in the old festive season, do you

    1- Carry on the old Christianity is hatred mantra and refuse to give/ accept presents

    or

    2- Hate Christianity but ignore your beliefs to join in Crimbo for the great piss up that it is, great family dinner and re appoint it as a non religious day of goodwill to your fellow man


    Huh?

    What does a Christian Christmas have to do with having a piss up and a great family dinner ? Thats what us pagans do to have a laugh and make light of the nonsense that the poor unfortunates believe about Jebus's birthday.

    The Christmas you enjoy was invented a long time ago by our commercially minded friends in companies like Coca Cola. Its just an elaborate myth based on old pagan beliefs mixed with some dodgy Christian legends, but ultimately hijacked by the modern western world as an excuse to have a bit of fun (and make money).

    I know Santa Claus is about as real as "God", but I still bring my 5 year old nephew to see him. You see its ok for a 5 year old to believe in a man in the sky who watches you all the time during the whole year to see if you are good or bad !

    Its when adults believe it that the problems start.

    Happy Christmas !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    If all people can do is slander Christianity without providing much reason to do so, we must be doing okay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    Nah they'll point out the pedo priests again...and the Crusades....Just reply with the Soviet Union lol :p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    I do understand the point of the OP, regardless of the factual background of Christmas, the fact still remains that we're not getting time off, presents, time with the family etc etc because of a Pagan festival. Ask the government why it's a national holiday and they won't say because of Paganism. So in my humble opinion bringing the origins of the date into the fold is pointless, you're still enjoying this time because of a Christian holiday.

    As for me, I'm not religious but I will take part in the festivities. However, I won't be losing any sleep over my "hypocritical" stance. ;)


This discussion has been closed.
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