All Estate Names to be in Irish

Louisc · 09-12-2009 12:03AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

And your source for this undereducated rubbish is what, precisely? The etymology of the name Dublin, perhaps? No, please do enlighten us.

Yes there is an Irish name for Dublin, that says nothing about whether Irish was ever the spoken language there.

Just because there is an English name for Munichen in Germany (Munich) doesn't mean that English was ever the spoken language of Munich

We know the Vikings established the city...And they didnt speak Irish, did they ?
And the Normans, did they speak Irish ? I don't think so.
And then Dublin was occupied by the English since the middle of say the 15th century until Irish Independence

Could you please enlighten us as to when Irish was the spoken language of Dublin ?

It never was, please explain why you think I'm talking undereducated rubbish ?

And just to continue my rant, Ireland was first occupied 10'000 years ago. The original settlers didnt speak Irish, they came from the Iberian peninsula.
5000 years ago, the inhabitants of the Island built the Megalethic tombs in Newgrange, they had a good understanding of astronomy. They didnt speak the Irish language.
A language similar to Irish was the spoken language of Ireland for less than 20% of the time Ireland has been occupied by humans, and that's a fact. The vast majority of our ancestors in the 400 generations of human beings which comprise our family tree since Ireland was first occupied did not speak Irish.

In fact I think it would be more relevant to name the new housing estates in old Norse (the first language of Dublin), wouldn't that be quaint and interesting ! It would show some respect for our Viking ancestors, because everyone in Ireland has some Viking blood flowing through their veins, it would be virtually impossible not to have some.

DubTony · 09-12-2009 12:17AM

Passed by this place in Ratoath a few weeks back. I sprained my tongue trying to pronounce it.

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 12:21AM

Louisc wrote: »

Just because there is an English name for Munichen in Germany (Munich) doesn't mean that English was ever the spoken language of Munich

Oh. My. God. That's just fierce silly. And that's about as kind as I'm going to be. Go away. Get an education.

Louisc wrote: »

We know the Vikings established the city...And they didnt speak Irish, did they ?

No, they didn't which is why we have common Irish surnames like Ó Dúill, Ó Fionnghaill, Mac Lochlainn and Mac Amhlaoibh - to name a few - named after Norsemen. I wonder how that happened ...

You're not Anne Holliday?!?!

Louisc wrote: »

And the Normans, did they speak Irish ? I don't think so.

Of course not! The Normans speaking Irish? The very thought would horrify the Mac Coisdealbha, de Búrca, de Barra, Mac Gearailt and, well, all the rest of the Norman families. Speaking Irish? God No: Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis. Google that and start reading your first bit of Irish history. Hilarious! I had more knowledge of Irish history when reading Bobby Sands's A Day in the Life as a 7-year-old. This is not good. [/quote]

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 12:23AM

DubTony wrote: »

Passed by this place in Ratoath a few weeks back. I sprained my tongue trying to pronounce it.

Given that the Irish language has been in Ireland for thousands of years, I'll safely diagnose the problem as your tongue.

Kwekubo · 09-12-2009 12:27AM

I'm big into the Irish language, but this is a stupid ruling.

I have no problem with making sure that new estate names "reflect local history and topography" as it says in that article - it makes sense , if a townland already has a name, that a version of the old name be carried forward to preserve local culture/history etc.

But when I speak English, I speak English, and when I speak Irish, I speak Irish. End of story. You can't just delete English out of existence. That's just bigoted, it's not a sustainable model for a bilingual society (should that be what you aspire towards).

aDeener · 09-12-2009 12:33AM

Kwekubo wrote: »

I'm big into the Irish language, but this is a stupid ruling.

I have no problem with making sure that new estate names "reflect local history and topography" as it says in that article - it makes sense , if a townland already has a name, that a version of the old name be carried forward to preserve local culture/history etc.

But when I speak English, I speak English, and when I speak Irish, I speak Irish. End of story. You can't just delete English out of existence. That's just bigoted, it's not a sustainable model for a bilingual society (should that be what you aspire towards).

i can't see how thats bigotted, any move to enhance the everyday visibility and usage of our native tongue is to be encouraged in my view, especially this one as the expense is minimal in the extreme.

why is anything remotely to do with our culture or history immediately bigotted (not saying that you said this, but i get this feeling from boards in general)

plus it will rule out future ridiculous names on places like the ones mentioned previously in this thread

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 12:37AM

Kwekubo wrote: »

You can't just delete English out of existence. That's just bigoted, it's not a sustainable model for a bilingual society (should that be what you aspire towards).

Oh. And the current situation where the Irish language is being "deleted out of existence" through a flood of Westburys and Windsors is not bigoted? Or is it just a more acceptable form of bigotry in your personal preference?

Whosbetter? · 09-12-2009 12:40AM

Okay, lets get back to the point in hand.

Rebelheart & Lusic are going into who spoke what dialect 50, 100, 500 years ago.

DO YOU THINK I GIVE A CRAP!!!!!!!!

No, I don't .

1 in 5 people of working age are now unemployed.

Think about that!

Now, The Glorious Irish Language Brigade, with their blinkered dogmatic view of the world want to spend what's left of the public purse on folly like this!

Good patriots & true all of ye!:mad:

ejmaztec · 09-12-2009 12:43AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Given that the Irish language has been in Ireland for thousands of years, I'll safely diagnose the problem as your tongue.

It must be really frustrating being one of the few voices screaming in the wilderness, and at the same time incorrectly assuming that anyone disagreeing with you wasn't born in Ireland.

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 12:50AM

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Rebelheart spent most of the evening disagreeing with the points of view of a lot of the posters on this thread.

I'd fight with my shadow so don't be - oops, please desist from - flattering yourself there now.

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Aren't people with his views not getting the message, that they're fighting a losing battle?

No, we are clearly (and transparently) not getting any such message. Would that we were as enlightened as your fine self, God bless you.

Whosbetter? wrote: »

people who have such a dogmatic view on this subject, have put an awful lot of us off learning the language in the first place.

Hold it there Róisín. This is another pathetic cop-out from somebody with little self-regard, self-will and determination to achieve something regardless of obstacles. Cut it out. If I want something, I go for it and it doesn't matter a damn who says what. It is absurd to think that a teacher, or any other person could turn you off something that is intrinsic to you as a separate, thinking person in the world. At least have the balls to step up to the mark here and have the courage to be honest. Your current disposition is quite objectionable in its display of lack of character.

I have made mistakes. I have failed. They are my mistakes and they are my failures. It really is not that difficult to admit this and it is entirely possible to do so without seeking scapegoats for your own weaknesses.

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 12:54AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It must be really frustrating being one of the few voices screaming in the wilderness

Clearly not as frustrating as being you, as testified to by most (to be polite) of your 7313 posts on Boards.ie.

Kwekubo · 09-12-2009 12:54AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Oh. And the current situation where the Irish language is being "deleted out of existence" through a flood of Westburys and Windsors is not bigoted? Or is it just a more acceptable form of bigotry in your personal preference?

Which is why I said:

Kwekubo wrote: »

I have no problem with making sure that new estate names "reflect local history and topography" as it says in that article - it makes sense , if a townland already has a name, that a version of the old name be carried forward to preserve local culture/history etc.

DubTony · 09-12-2009 12:56AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Given that the Irish language has been in Ireland for thousands of years, I'll safely diagnose the problem as your tongue.

Ha f*ckin ha

I haven't been here for thousands of years so I suppose my tongue just didn't have the experience.

If our oh-so-smart educators had really given a sh*t about teaching all us traitorous English speaking west brits the language, they'd have found a better way to do it. Ramming it down our throats and force feeding us from text books my grandfather used just didn't cut it.

Wake up. The country's in a shambles and you openly support this crappy idea?

Louisc · 09-12-2009 12:56AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Oh. My. God. That's just fierce silly. And that's about as kind as I'm going to be. Go away. Get an education.

No, they didn't which is why we have common Irish surnames like Ó Dúill, Ó Fionnghaill, Mac Lochlainn and Mac Amhlaoibh - to name a few - named after Norsemen. I wonder how that happened ...

You're not Anne Holliday?!?!

Of course not! The Normans speaking Irish? The very thought would horrify the Mac Coisdealbha, de Búrca, de Barra, Mac Gearailt and, well, all the rest of the Norman families. Speaking Irish? God No: Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis. Google that and start reading your first bit of Irish history. Hilarious! I had more knowledge of Irish history when reading Bobby Sands's A Day in the Life as a 7-year-old. This is not good.

[/quote]

All I was doing is making the point that Irish was never the spoken language of Dublin. Please enlighten us as to when Irish was the spoken language of Dublin, maybe some other posters will defend you if you are right. Was Irish the language of the pale ? Hope other posters will help.

Maybe I aint as educated as you, it's quite possible I'm not..but I aint Anne Holiday, please explain how the entomology of Dublin (Dubh Linn) is proof that Irish was ever the spoken language of Dublin. Hope other neutral posters will help.

Whosbetter? · 09-12-2009 12:56AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

I'd fight with my shadow so don't be - oops, please desist from - flattering yourself there now.

No, we are clearly (and transparently) not getting any such message. Would that we were as enlightened as your fine self, God bless you.

Hold it there Róisín. This is another pathetic cop-out from somebody with little self-regard, self-will and determination to achieve something regardless of obstacles. Cut it out. If I want something, I go for it and it doesn't matter a damn who says what. It is absurd to think that a teacher, or any other person could turn you off something that is intrinsic to you as a separate, thinking person in the world. At least have the balls to step up to the mark here and have the courage to be honest. Your current disposition is quite objectionable in its display of lack of character.

I have made mistakes. I have failed. They are my mistakes and they are my failures. It really is not that difficult to admit this and it is entirely possible to do so without seeking scapegoats for your own weaknesses.

Goes to show, there's no point in trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 01:00AM

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Now, The Glorious Irish Language Brigade, with ...

I don't think "The Glorious Irish Language Brigade" is a proper noun. Have a bit of regard for the Queen's English, please.

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 01:02AM

Whosbetter? wrote: »

Goes to show, there's no point in trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Wonderful comeback.

thebman · 09-12-2009 01:07AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

And how come you don't seem to have been too keen on voicing this objection to the ridiculously English names like Windsor Downs being imposed upon Irish towns and villages? Or "Bellingham" being imposed on a housing estate in the wilds of Laois? Or is your "outrage" just for Irish culture in Ireland?

PS: Nice to know the English language was established here on "its own" without any support from a powerful military and so forth.

Oh yeah lets get the army out to make people speak Irish :rolleyes:

English names aren't imposed. Most people speak English in the country. Its called cultural evolution.

We have Hiberno-English as our own dialect of English. Irish can be spoken by anybody that wants to speak it, nobody is saying you can't but its impractical and stupid to force everyone to write addresses in Irish to please a vocal minority group.

Intothesea · 09-12-2009 01:27AM

If it wasn't for mentalities like Rebelheart's there wouldn't be an Irish republic for us to sit in and bemoan one of the most intrinsically Irish things. Dublin may have been a Viking settlement but it's long overrun with at least a good mixture of Gael and Gall (also true in most places outside Dublin). Doing away with compulsory Irish would be a fatal move to the country's greatest cultural repository: a language that captures the mentality (and the history shaping that mentality) at the heart of it all.

/Stir

However I think changing road signs to all Irish is a lot of cash for something that will breed more resentment than familiarity, respect or love. Put the resources into changing the lip-service teaching techniques in our schools. If successful, road names will be transformed magically over time

ejmaztec · 09-12-2009 01:37AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Clearly not as frustrating as being you, as testified to by most (to be polite) of your 7313 posts on Boards.ie.

You'll have to do better than that.:D

At least I don't stick with the same old crap, and like most people here, I do like to vary it somewhat.;)

Rebelheart · 09-12-2009 02:06AM

thebman wrote: »

English names aren't imposed....

In fact, English names very much are imposed and no more so than in the names given to estates across Ireland, but particularly in Dublin. There is no democratic accountability in those names; they are bastardising everywhere from Carrickmines to Donabate.

What, pray tell, is the connection between these placenames and the Windsors, Canterbury, Cambridge and many, many other places in England? Or, is everything imposed by the English "natural"?

thebman wrote: »

its impractical and stupid to force everyone to write addresses in Irish to please a vocal minority group.

To "force"? But it's absolutely fine to force them to write egomaniac British nationalist names like Royal Avenue, York Road, George's Street and all the rest? This all-pervading British royalist cult in 21st century Dublin is "acceptable"?

Or is the line now that these 19th and 20th century imposed neologisms are "part of our history", unlike Irish it seems.

kowloon · 09-12-2009 02:23AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

How do you put a name with no English equivalent as bearla?

Ahem. For those who still haven't got it: Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Belfast, Derry ... (duh!)

I never tried to, merely stating that changing places with names in another language to bastardised forms of Irish is just as bad as the opposite.

You need to combine your posts instead of spamming the thread with one liners.

fatboypee · 09-12-2009 08:41AM

One at a time here...

the leaving cert is a bloody memory test, those who work hard will get the results. if it wasnt there would be no point to repeating it.

Can you explain your theory a little more please ? For example: Art ? Do people just remember how to draw, paint etc ? English Essay writing, Suppose they also recall the great works of authors and regurgitate verbatim? Take your pet subject Irish, just remembering HOW TO SPEAK it then ?

could the non-national not have the same ability as picking up the language? i would say they are in an even better position as more than likely they can already speak 2, which in turn increses the ability to learn another.

More than likely already speak 2 languages ? A remarkable assumption there.
To take up the point, this particularly applies in cases where students come into the education system later and without a foundation in Irish. Potentially a lot of these of students will take Irish but, (as I pointed out in my earlier post) will in no way have the confidence to take the WHOLE Curriculum's examinations in Irish ?

and no i wont forgive your cynicism as there is a 3rd group, one which has a genuine interest and love for the language

OK, lets look at that. As you say in a post further down that you speak Irish but are not fluent yet, is it safe to assume however that you took your Leaving Cert in Irish then ?

If not, is your argument not wholly moot ?

FBP.

Jesus Wept · 09-12-2009 08:50AM

bóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó

09-12-2009 10:34AM

The-Rigger wrote: »

bóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó

Yes you're right this thread has become lán cac tarbh!

sarmer · 09-12-2009 10:41AM

It's quite weird staying in Ireland and giving out - oops, complaining - about the Irish language being in Ireland.

I quite like Ireland actually and have no intention of ever leaving permanently. The Irish language is only spoken in certain pockets of the country and if people want to speak it they should. But I would say the majority of people in this country resent having to learn a language that they have no connection with. Just because my ancestors spoke it is no reason that I should have it forced upon me.

09-12-2009 10:57AM

sarmer wrote: »

I quite like Ireland actually and have no intention of ever leaving permanently. The Irish language is only spoken in certain pockets of the country and if people want to speak it they should. But I would say the majority of people in this country resent having to learn a language that they have no connection with. Just because my ancestors spoke it is no reason that I should have it forced upon me.

That's a fair comment and everyone should respect this. Those who want the country to become bi-lingual should look to Wales for inspiration, they have been far more successful than the Irish, Finland is another example.

Palmerstown_guy · 09-12-2009 12:19PM

I see no harm in this at all... from a cultural perspective.

But English is the world language and it is here to stay.

aDeener · 09-12-2009 01:30PM

fatboypee wrote: »

One at a time here...

Can you explain your theory a little more please ? For example: Art ? Do people just remember how to draw, paint etc ? English Essay writing, Suppose they also recall the great works of authors and regurgitate verbatim? Take your pet subject Irish, just remembering HOW TO SPEAK it then ?

More than likely already speak 2 languages ? A remarkable assumption there.
To take up the point, this particularly applies in cases where students come into the education system later and without a foundation in Irish. Potentially a lot of these of students will take Irish but, (as I pointed out in my earlier post) will in no way have the confidence to take the WHOLE Curriculum's examinations in Irish ?

OK, lets look at that. As you say in a post further down that you speak Irish but are not fluent yet, is it safe to assume however that you took your Leaving Cert in Irish then ?

If not, is your argument not wholly moot ?

FBP.

art i cant comment on, as i never took it on but im sure there is a theory aspect to it that can be learned off. as for english and irish, it is completely memorised and puked out, god knows how many teachers give sample general essays to fit into whatever title comes up on the day. and even for the irish oral, the same questions are asked so teachers give the "right" answer for students to give when it does come up!

well isnt that their problem that they dont have the confidence to take it on in irish, they are receiving the same education as the rest of us and have X amount of years to become good enough at the language. besides no one is forcing them to take it, the option is there for them like everyone else.

cant see how my argument is wholly moot as no i didnt take my lc through irish as it is since then that i have learned to really appreciate it. but the fact is 2 of my 1st cousins, neither fluent took it due to their interest in the language. now they may be a minority but sure arent you one looking out for minorities here

also would you please stop signing off your posts with your initials, its plain silly, thanks

Ouchette · 09-12-2009 01:44PM

Can anyone explain to this poor confused foreigner why it is that if the government seriously wants to promote Irish, there aren't any cheap/free Irish lessons available to those 10% or so of us who are immigrants and didn't learn it at school? That would be much more useful than this estate names in Irish stuff

Anyway, I still haven't managed to figure out the first thing about how you get from the spellings of Irish names to how you say them, so I'd just end up anglicising them.

All Estate Names to be in Irish

Comments