The entire Catholic Church needs to be investigated

Riddle101 · 03-12-2009 11:58PM #1

I hate to be adding more fuel to the flame of the controversery surrounding the Catholic Church in Ireland, and i'm sure we're all sick of hearing about it, but I just want to say that it seems to be that Ireland has taken the hit of this, but I think this is much bigger then Ireland. Should the Murphy Report be only limited to Ireland? If the church has kept these secret from the public in Ireland, then who knows what it's like in countries like Italy, Spain or America where the Catholic Church is also pretty big. Is it the church or simply the people in it? either way I don't think anyone can be really sure anymore as to wheter or not these reports are only for Ireland. I just think the whole chuch needs to be investigated. As a catholic myself, i'm angry and feel justice needs to be brought before the church, the Vatican isn't making things any easier and I'm sure that if the chuch in Ireland is keeping secrets, other parishes are doing it as well.

omahaid · 04-12-2009 12:00AM

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

TheZohanS · 04-12-2009 12:02AM

I'll leave this thread open, but any off-topic posting will lead to a ban. So read the OP's post and stick to the topic and no going off on tangents.

Agricola · 04-12-2009 12:11AM

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

It seems the special reverence shown to religion knows no bounds.

thomond2006 · 04-12-2009 12:19AM

It won't happen.

Other organised religions don't need a supreme head, why should Catholicism?

omahaid · 04-12-2009 12:22AM

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

I should clarify more what I meant. The OP is right, every country where the RCC operates should assume abuse. This idea that the abuse and coverups are just the result of a few misguided priests and bishops is misguided. I believe it is endemic, there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty. The whole lot is rotten and should be left solely to the civil authorities.

Run_to_da_hills · 04-12-2009 12:24AM

ALLY89 wrote: »

The whole damn thing (catholic church) should just be shut down. They've caused enough misery in the past centuary between abusing children & putting young innocent women locked away in magdelene asylums, it's time for a brighter Ireland!

It won't get shut down but it will lose a lot respect in this country even from devout die hards. What will happen as more gets investigated and exposed more will leave it voluntary and find their way into Protestant denominations.

Herbal Deity · 04-12-2009 12:24AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Other organised religions don't need a supreme head, why should Catholicism?

Why shouldn't it?

There are protestant alternatives for those who wish to be Christians and not have the pope as the head of their church.

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 12:25AM

omahaid wrote: »

I should clarify more what I meant. The OP is right, every country where the RCC operates should assume abuse. This idea that the abuse and coverups are just the result of a few misguided priests and bishops is misguided. I believe it is endemic, there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty. The whole lot is rotten and should be left solely to the civil authorities.

And how exactly do you know any of this?

It has mostly been Irish priests who were abusers (Even the ones that emigrated to America oddly).

It is not right to assume abuse without evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

TheZohanS · 04-12-2009 12:25AM

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Why shouldn't it?

There are protestant alternatives for those who wish to be Christians and not have the pope as the head of their church.

Off-topic posting in this thread will lead to a ban.

delta_bravo · 04-12-2009 12:28AM

omahaid wrote: »

there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty.

Completely disagree with you there

omahaid · 04-12-2009 12:28AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

And how exactly do you know any of this?

It has mostly been Irish priests who were abusers (Even the ones that emigrated to America oddly).

It is not right to assume abuse without evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

Are you asking how I know these facts without the reports being done. I don't. I've inferred guilt from the behavior of the RCC in Ireland. Investigate every part of the RCC and if the reports say they're all innocent I'll happily retract what I think.

There's no point standing behind Innocent until proven guilty when no one is being put in front of a judge, is there? Even people whose actions are "inexcusable" are happy to stay in their positions.

Tear the lot down and rebuild, don't sit there and say "it is not right to assume abuse". Anyway, I'm not assuming they're all abusers but there was plenty other crimes committed and it's not just the church that have questions to answer.

omahaid · 04-12-2009 12:31AM

delta_bravo wrote: »

Completely disagree with you there

Why though? The Murphy commission found abuse and cover ups were endemic. Emphasis on endemic. This means covering up abuse and abuse itself was prevalent.

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 12:33AM

omahaid wrote: »

Are you asking how I know these facts without the reports being done. I don't. I've inferred guilt from the behavior of the RCC in Ireland. Investigate every part of the RCC and if the reports say they're all innocent I'll happily retract what I think.

There's no point standing behind Innocent until proven guilty when no one is being put in front of a judge, is there? Even people whose actions are "inexcusable" are happy to stay in their positions.

Tear the lot down and rebuild, don't sit there and say "it is not right to assume abuse". Anyway, I'm not assuming they're all abusers but there was plenty other crimes committed and it's not just the church that have questions to answer.

So by that way of thinking if there was a European trade union for teachers for example and it turned out 5% of the Irish members either living in Ireland or abroad were guilty of child abuse, does that mean that all the people in the group should be investigated? There are some guilty, the majority are good innocent people. Just because it may have been spread out all around Ireland does not mean it occured in every single parish likewise it does not mean it occured throughout the entire church throughout the world.

omahaid · 04-12-2009 12:34AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So by that way of thinking if there was a European trade union for teachers for example and it turned out 5% of the Irish members either living in Ireland or abroad were guilty of child abuse, does that mean that all the people in the group should be investigated? There are some guilty, the majority are good innocent people.

Should we just investigate Irish priests only then?

fryup · 04-12-2009 12:34AM

well martin luther knew what they were up to, way back in the 16th century

delta_bravo · 04-12-2009 12:35AM

omahaid wrote: »

Why though? The Murphy commission found abuse and cover ups were endemic. Emphasis on endemic. This means covering up abuse and abuse itself was prevalent.

You said that the majority of members of the church are abusers which simply is not true

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 12:35AM

omahaid wrote: »

Should we just investigate Irish priests only then?

Yes but only those accused or suspected. Those innocent do not deserve to be investigated whether Irish or anything else.

jhegarty · 04-12-2009 12:36AM

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

Because the gardai where more guilty of neglect in these cases than anyone.

They would have to haul in themselves at the same time.

fryup · 04-12-2009 12:40AM

ireland up untill very recently was a very closed insular narrowminded society, it was easy for the catholic church to get away with things like they did, nobody had the backbone to stand up to them

Senna · 04-12-2009 12:42AM

The church still has such a hold on this country, the Murphy Report is only paying lip service to the crimes if no other action is taken. Everyone who covered this up should be punished as severly as those who committed the crimes. There will be more reports, the Murphy report was centered on Dublin only (the one on the Raphoe Diocese should make horrifying reading), but whats the point if nothing is done.

delta_bravo · 04-12-2009 12:44AM

fryup wrote: »

ireland up untill very recently was a very closed insular narrowminded society, it was easy for the catholic church to get away with things like they did, nobody had the backbone to stand up to them

Thats a very common argument. However I still dont understand how an organisation that received numerous complaints of abuse of children simply refused to respond to them in any way. It seems very easy just to attribute it to 'society'.

deisemum · 04-12-2009 01:05AM

Senna wrote: »

The church still has such a hold on this country, the Murphy Report is only paying lip service to the crimes if no other action is taken. Everyone who covered this up should be punished as severly as those who committed the crimes. There will be more reports, the Murphy report was centered on Dublin only (the one on the Raphoe Diocese should make horrifying reading), but whats the point if nothing is done.

One of the bishop's (don't know if I can name him but it's in the media) spoke out against further investigations in other parts of the country because it will show the same pattern of abuse that happened in Ferns and Dublin.

I cannot understand why those that perverted the course of justice are still not being charged. Where is the justice in that especially when you see people who couldn't pay their tv licence ending up in prison.

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 01:09AM

deisemum wrote: »

One of the bishop's (don't know if I can name him but it's in the media) spoke out against further investigations in other parts of the country because it will show the same pattern of abuse that happened in Ferns and Dublin.

I cannot understand why those that perverted the course of justice are still not being charged. Where is the justice in that especially when you see people who couldn't pay their tv licence ending up in prison.

Lack of evidence is possible. I am NOT saying those who covered it up are innocent. There is probably a legal reason why they cannot (Yet) formally charge those guilty. Maybe they need more evidence.

Senna · 04-12-2009 01:13AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Lack of evidence is possible. I am NOT saying those who covered it up are innocent. There is probably a legal reason why they cannot (Yet) formally charge those guilty. Maybe they need more evidence.

There's nothing stopping them from questioning those who are named in the report and building a case from there.
But of course that would be too sensible.

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 01:15AM

Senna wrote: »

There's nothing stopping them from questioning those who are named in the report and building a case from there.
But of course that would be too sensible.

Well unless there is 100% solid proof that can be relied on in court the government could be sued for libel or slander if they accused anyone without foolproof evidence.

(BTW I am talking about those indirectly involved by covering it up e.t.c.)

TPD · 04-12-2009 01:17AM

delta_bravo wrote: »

You said that the majority of members of the church are abusers which simply is not true

He said the majority are guilty. Covering up the abuse is a crime too.

partyatmygaff · 04-12-2009 01:20AM

The Perfect Drug wrote: »

He said the majority are guilty. Covering up the abuse is a crime too.

They were some of the bishops and archbishops of which there aren't a lot. The ordinary parish priests in other parishes would probably not have known for sure if anything strange was happening.

Senna · 04-12-2009 01:31AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Well unless there is 100% solid proof that can be relied on in court the government could be sued for libel or slander if they accused anyone without foolproof evidence.

(BTW I am talking about those indirectly involved by covering it up e.t.c.)

Who is saying accusing, take the fcukers in for questioning in relation to an ongoing investigation, their not being accused of anything. FFS, everyone has to pussy-foot around encase the government get sued:rolleyes:.

Kersh · 04-12-2009 01:31AM

Lack of evidence is possible

All it takes is 1 or 2 victims to make a complaint to the gardai, like the swim coach victims did. Simple. How that Limerick bishop could even sit on national TV today, knowing what he did, is an absolute disgrace.

Anyway, i do agree that the whole RCC needs to be looked into. Its endemic. Pick any diocese in this country and you will find abuse. After all, 1 in 4 is called that for a reason. :mad:

TPD · 04-12-2009 01:33AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They were some of the bishops and archbishops of which there aren't a lot. The ordinary parish priests in other parishes would probably not have known for sure if anything strange was happening.

I was only pointing out that you misinterpreted what he/she said. I wouldn't agree with him/her either.

/The english language needs a 3rd person gender ambiguous singular noun.

The entire Catholic Church needs to be investigated

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