The entire Catholic Church needs to be investigated

Riddle101

I hate to be adding more fuel to the flame of the controversery surrounding the Catholic Church in Ireland, and i'm sure we're all sick of hearing about it, but I just want to say that it seems to be that Ireland has taken the hit of this, but I think this is much bigger then Ireland. Should the Murphy Report be only limited to Ireland? If the church has kept these secret from the public in Ireland, then who knows what it's like in countries like Italy, Spain or America where the Catholic Church is also pretty big. Is it the church or simply the people in it? either way I don't think anyone can be really sure anymore as to wheter or not these reports are only for Ireland. I just think the whole chuch needs to be investigated. As a catholic myself, i'm angry and feel justice needs to be brought before the church, the Vatican isn't making things any easier and I'm sure that if the chuch in Ireland is keeping secrets, other parishes are doing it as well.

omahaid

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

TheZohanS

I'll leave this thread open, but any off-topic posting will lead to a ban. So read the OP's post and stick to the topic and no going off on tangents.

Agricola

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

It seems the special reverence shown to religion knows no bounds.

thomond2006

It won't happen.

Other organised religions don't need a supreme head, why should Catholicism?

omahaid

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

I should clarify more what I meant. The OP is right, every country where the RCC operates should assume abuse. This idea that the abuse and coverups are just the result of a few misguided priests and bishops is misguided. I believe it is endemic, there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty. The whole lot is rotten and should be left solely to the civil authorities.

Run_to_da_hills

ALLY89 wrote: »

The whole damn thing (catholic church) should just be shut down. They've caused enough misery in the past centuary between abusing children & putting young innocent women locked away in magdelene asylums, it's time for a brighter Ireland!

It won't get shut down but it will lose a lot respect in this country even from devout die hards. What will happen as more gets investigated and exposed more will leave it voluntary and find their way into Protestant denominations.

Herbal Deity

thomond2006 wrote: »

Other organised religions don't need a supreme head, why should Catholicism?

Why shouldn't it?

There are protestant alternatives for those who wish to be Christians and not have the pope as the head of their church.

partyatmygaff

omahaid wrote: »

I should clarify more what I meant. The OP is right, every country where the RCC operates should assume abuse. This idea that the abuse and coverups are just the result of a few misguided priests and bishops is misguided. I believe it is endemic, there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty. The whole lot is rotten and should be left solely to the civil authorities.

And how exactly do you know any of this?

It has mostly been Irish priests who were abusers (Even the ones that emigrated to America oddly).

It is not right to assume abuse without evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

TheZohanS

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Why shouldn't it?

There are protestant alternatives for those who wish to be Christians and not have the pope as the head of their church.

Off-topic posting in this thread will lead to a ban.

delta_bravo

omahaid wrote: »

there are more members of the RCC guilty than not guilty.

Completely disagree with you there

omahaid

partyatmygaff wrote: »

And how exactly do you know any of this?

It has mostly been Irish priests who were abusers (Even the ones that emigrated to America oddly).

It is not right to assume abuse without evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.

Are you asking how I know these facts without the reports being done. I don't. I've inferred guilt from the behavior of the RCC in Ireland. Investigate every part of the RCC and if the reports say they're all innocent I'll happily retract what I think.

There's no point standing behind Innocent until proven guilty when no one is being put in front of a judge, is there? Even people whose actions are "inexcusable" are happy to stay in their positions.

Tear the lot down and rebuild, don't sit there and say "it is not right to assume abuse". Anyway, I'm not assuming they're all abusers but there was plenty other crimes committed and it's not just the church that have questions to answer.

omahaid

delta_bravo wrote: »

Completely disagree with you there

Why though? The Murphy commission found abuse and cover ups were endemic. Emphasis on endemic. This means covering up abuse and abuse itself was prevalent.

partyatmygaff

omahaid wrote: »

Are you asking how I know these facts without the reports being done. I don't. I've inferred guilt from the behavior of the RCC in Ireland. Investigate every part of the RCC and if the reports say they're all innocent I'll happily retract what I think.

There's no point standing behind Innocent until proven guilty when no one is being put in front of a judge, is there? Even people whose actions are "inexcusable" are happy to stay in their positions.

Tear the lot down and rebuild, don't sit there and say "it is not right to assume abuse". Anyway, I'm not assuming they're all abusers but there was plenty other crimes committed and it's not just the church that have questions to answer.

So by that way of thinking if there was a European trade union for teachers for example and it turned out 5% of the Irish members either living in Ireland or abroad were guilty of child abuse, does that mean that all the people in the group should be investigated? There are some guilty, the majority are good innocent people. Just because it may have been spread out all around Ireland does not mean it occured in every single parish likewise it does not mean it occured throughout the entire church throughout the world.

omahaid

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So by that way of thinking if there was a European trade union for teachers for example and it turned out 5% of the Irish members either living in Ireland or abroad were guilty of child abuse, does that mean that all the people in the group should be investigated? There are some guilty, the majority are good innocent people.

Should we just investigate Irish priests only then?

fryup

well martin luther knew what they were up to, way back in the 16th century

delta_bravo

omahaid wrote: »

Why though? The Murphy commission found abuse and cover ups were endemic. Emphasis on endemic. This means covering up abuse and abuse itself was prevalent.

You said that the majority of members of the church are abusers which simply is not true

partyatmygaff

omahaid wrote: »

Should we just investigate Irish priests only then?

Yes but only those accused or suspected. Those innocent do not deserve to be investigated whether Irish or anything else.

jhegarty

omahaid wrote: »

I'm genuinely baffled. I can't understand why the gardai aren't hauling priest and bishops in for questioning. Yer man in limerick is considering his position?!?! He should be in a cell.

Because the gardai where more guilty of neglect in these cases than anyone.

They would have to haul in themselves at the same time.

fryup

ireland up untill very recently was a very closed insular narrowminded society, it was easy for the catholic church to get away with things like they did, nobody had the backbone to stand up to them

Senna

The church still has such a hold on this country, the Murphy Report is only paying lip service to the crimes if no other action is taken. Everyone who covered this up should be punished as severly as those who committed the crimes. There will be more reports, the Murphy report was centered on Dublin only (the one on the Raphoe Diocese should make horrifying reading), but whats the point if nothing is done.

delta_bravo

fryup wrote: »

ireland up untill very recently was a very closed insular narrowminded society, it was easy for the catholic church to get away with things like they did, nobody had the backbone to stand up to them

Thats a very common argument. However I still dont understand how an organisation that received numerous complaints of abuse of children simply refused to respond to them in any way. It seems very easy just to attribute it to 'society'.

deisemum

Senna wrote: »

The church still has such a hold on this country, the Murphy Report is only paying lip service to the crimes if no other action is taken. Everyone who covered this up should be punished as severly as those who committed the crimes. There will be more reports, the Murphy report was centered on Dublin only (the one on the Raphoe Diocese should make horrifying reading), but whats the point if nothing is done.

One of the bishop's (don't know if I can name him but it's in the media) spoke out against further investigations in other parts of the country because it will show the same pattern of abuse that happened in Ferns and Dublin.

I cannot understand why those that perverted the course of justice are still not being charged. Where is the justice in that especially when you see people who couldn't pay their tv licence ending up in prison.

partyatmygaff

deisemum wrote: »

One of the bishop's (don't know if I can name him but it's in the media) spoke out against further investigations in other parts of the country because it will show the same pattern of abuse that happened in Ferns and Dublin.

I cannot understand why those that perverted the course of justice are still not being charged. Where is the justice in that especially when you see people who couldn't pay their tv licence ending up in prison.

Lack of evidence is possible. I am NOT saying those who covered it up are innocent. There is probably a legal reason why they cannot (Yet) formally charge those guilty. Maybe they need more evidence.

Senna

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Lack of evidence is possible. I am NOT saying those who covered it up are innocent. There is probably a legal reason why they cannot (Yet) formally charge those guilty. Maybe they need more evidence.

There's nothing stopping them from questioning those who are named in the report and building a case from there.
But of course that would be too sensible.

partyatmygaff

Senna wrote: »

There's nothing stopping them from questioning those who are named in the report and building a case from there.
But of course that would be too sensible.

Well unless there is 100% solid proof that can be relied on in court the government could be sued for libel or slander if they accused anyone without foolproof evidence.


(BTW I am talking about those indirectly involved by covering it up e.t.c.)

TPD

delta_bravo wrote: »

You said that the majority of members of the church are abusers which simply is not true

He said the majority are guilty. Covering up the abuse is a crime too.

partyatmygaff

The Perfect Drug wrote: »

He said the majority are guilty. Covering up the abuse is a crime too.

They were some of the bishops and archbishops of which there aren't a lot. The ordinary parish priests in other parishes would probably not have known for sure if anything strange was happening.

Senna

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Well unless there is 100% solid proof that can be relied on in court the government could be sued for libel or slander if they accused anyone without foolproof evidence.


(BTW I am talking about those indirectly involved by covering it up e.t.c.)

Who is saying accusing, take the fcukers in for questioning in relation to an ongoing investigation, their not being accused of anything. FFS, everyone has to pussy-foot around encase the government get sued:rolleyes:.

Kersh

Lack of evidence is possible

All it takes is 1 or 2 victims to make a complaint to the gardai, like the swim coach victims did. Simple. How that Limerick bishop could even sit on national TV today, knowing what he did, is an absolute disgrace.

Anyway, i do agree that the whole RCC needs to be looked into. Its endemic. Pick any diocese in this country and you will find abuse. After all, 1 in 4 is called that for a reason. :mad:

TPD

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They were some of the bishops and archbishops of which there aren't a lot. The ordinary parish priests in other parishes would probably not have known for sure if anything strange was happening.

I was only pointing out that you misinterpreted what he/she said. I wouldn't agree with him/her either.


/The english language needs a 3rd person gender ambiguous singular noun.

condra

There have been abuse scandals in other countries, and in other religions.

I think it's probably just a matter of time for some countries before it becomes the local "big issue" like it is here.

I wonder how much coverage the Irish story has received globally.

Run_to_da_hills

condra wrote: »

There have been abuse scandals in other countries, and in other religions.

I think it's probably just a matter of time for some countries before it becomes the local "big issue" like it is here.

I wonder how much coverage the Irish story has received globally.

I would certainly say it gets a wide coverage in the States and Australia since there is such a large Irish community there.

Google News is also a great thing....While it lasts. :mad:

Biggins

Right now the Vatican and its head leader is playing hard-ball.

* He won't answer any questions or requests put to him.
* He won't recognise any impartial inquiries - even if they are set-up by a government.
* He won't supply any information that they consider to put them in bad light beyond a country's individual border.
* He won't let the Vatican be exposed to financial litigation. As soon as someone attempts to hold them responsible - America, Italy, Ireland and other countries other basic local parishes are as far as financial liability is allowed. If Rome thinks it can be held accountable for any of the damage done by direct action, in-direct action, complacent after the act, etc, the orders go out from Rome that local parishes are to declare themselves bankrupt (6+ in the USA alone) or state that they will only accept limited liability.
* The list goes on...

The Church of Rome has CENTURIES of practise in the art of keeping secrets and practising lies, looking after their own (here at home where they smuggle priests in and out after they have "sinned", Monsenior Donnelly and co, abroad in the states and Europe: Paul Casimir Marcinkus, etc) looking after their institutions and limiting their liability (Look into "Banco Ambrosiano", Roberto Calvi, The Vatican Bank, P2 masonic lodge, etc and those are just a few off the head examples).

Anyone deeply interested in this subject and see the extent of their power I suggest the reading of a international famous book by Davis Yallop, called "In Gods Name".
Its a shocking read and incitement of the way things are done, the antics of Rome in keeping secrets even from World War 2 onwards never mind the previous centuries. It indicates just how far they are willing to go in order to see that "the victor gets to write history" and to ensure that they are always the victorious and righteous ones in the end.

The church of Rome is for me a basket case of sins piles upon sins - and with todays greater abilities to communicate better with one another (through technology alone), the further ability of exposing some truths by same, the Vatican has still not learned its lesson and continues to play hard-ball.

In essence, the equivalent of sticking its two fingers up to the people of this world that are looking for answers and justice.

docmol

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So by that way of thinking if there was a European trade union for teachers for example and it turned out 5% of the Irish members either living in Ireland or abroad were guilty of child abuse, does that mean that all the people in the group should be investigated? There are some guilty, the majority are good innocent people. Just because it may have been spread out all around Ireland does not mean it occured in every single parish likewise it does not mean it occured throughout the entire church throughout the world.

I think the difference is that if a teachers trade union found out that one of it's own was abusing kids it would hang the offender out to dry, not cover it up. I saw somewhere that parents were threatened with excomunication if they went to the civil authorities to report a priest for child abusing. Don't know if thats true though...

Senna

docmol wrote: »

I saw somewhere that parents were threatened with excomunication if they went to the civil authorities to report a priest for child abusing.

A lady who owned a shop in Galway (1960's) reported that her child had been abused by a priest, nothing was done about the report, but the local people found out about the allegation she made and stopped going to her shop, she closed the shop after a month.

Biggins

docmol wrote: »

I think the difference is that if a teachers trade union found out that one of it's own was abusing kids it would hang the offender out to dry, not cover it up. I saw somewhere that parents were threatened with excomunication if they went to the civil authorities to report a priest for child abusing. Don't know if thats true though...

Thats well, well known:

One quick USA example - there are loads others...

For decades, priests in this country abused children in parish after parish while their superiors covered it all up. Now it turns out the orders for this cover up were written in Rome at the highest levels of the Vatican.

CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales has uncovered a church document kept secret for 40 years.

The confidential Vatican document, obtained by CBS News, lays out a church policy that calls for absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests - anyone who speaks out could be thrown out of the church.

The policy was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.

The document, once "stored in the secret archives" of the Vatican, focuses on crimes initiated as part of the confessional relationship and what it calls the "worst crime": sexual assault committed by a priest" or "attempted by him with youths of either sex or with brute animals."

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone {including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml
Source: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/07/1060145795103.html

Overheal

The Vatican; Mecca (by Extension Saudi Arabia); Jerusalim and that whole spiel...

Why do we let Religion get that much power in the first place? Cant we just invade the Vatican?

deisemum

docmol wrote: »

I think the difference is that if a teachers trade union found out that one of it's own was abusing kids it would hang the offender out to dry, not cover it up. I saw somewhere that parents were threatened with excomunication if they went to the civil authorities to report a priest for child abusing. Don't know if thats true though...

Some teacher union reps are currently covering up child abuse and I know of a case where one family was paid off to keep quiet while other families were on the receiving end of one of the sickest threats for any family to face. Covering up is still alive in the education system.

Sanjuro

Riddle101 wrote: »

i'm sure we're all sick of hearing about it,

This in itself is a problem, and something the catholic church is damn well hoping will happen. As Irish people we bang on about outrage and what not to the point where everyone gets 'sick' of hearing about it and then the issue peters out and disappears. That's why there's no accountability in this country. This issue should be at the forefront until every single priest, bishop, politician and garda complicit is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. To hell with letting things go. These people should be dragged through the streets... metaphorically.