Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

Transfer of Athletes...

  • 01-12-2009 01:27PM
    #1
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭


    Good Afternoon all,i wanted to get a few opinions on a situation i find becoming more prevalent and worrying.
    The transfer of young athletes to bigger clubs.

    In my location we had a very promising 400m runner who has transferred to Tullamore..20 miles away.This athlete trained there before his transfer and raced for us, but now trains and races for that club.
    The problem now is that we have lost a promising young athlete,inspiration for our juveniles.No longer will his name grace our athletics section of the local paper and no longer will locals identify him as a member of our club while not wearing our colours.And yes,i did say inspiration as quite a number of locals would look up to him.
    So why transfer? its of no immediate benefit,for nay relay teams but surely club loyalty comes ahead of that..surely?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    mrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭mrak


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    This athlete trained there before his transfer and raced for us, but now trains and races for that club.
    It's too broad a topic to comment on much - so many individual situations but in the case above the move seems understandable. If you are training with your clubmates running is more fun, and you are more likely to stick with it for longer.

    Recruiting folk from outside your geographical radius will always leave you open to them joining a more convenient club. If athletes from a distance away ask about joining our club we generally advise them to check out their local club first if there is one nearer - unless they are good of course (just kidding ha ha).


  • #3
    hunnymonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭hunnymonster


    What age is he? If he is using the facilities and coaching of the other club then I would think it's only fair he races for them? The next question is why did he move? It's doesn't appear to be location, so are there facilities or coaches at the new club that he can't get in his old club?

    One thing I've noticed a lot is smaller (parish based) clubs having a lot of younger members and these gradually fall away from the sport in and around the exam years. The older athletes obviously need different types of training from the younger kids so they tend to gravitate to where there is a critical mass of people their own age.


  • #4
    dna_leri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    Good Afternoon all,i wanted to get a few opinions on a situation i find becoming more prevalent and worrying.
    The transfer of young athletes to bigger clubs.


    So why transfer? its of no immediate benefit,for nay relay teams but surely club loyalty comes ahead of that..surely?

    I think you have personalised the situation above too much but why transfer?
    Possibly - better facilities, better coaches, opportunity to train with others of similar ability, better structure to develop through junior and senior ranks, join with friends....
    If you are concerned about why a particular athlete has moved you could ask them - you may get feedback about how you could improve your club.


  • #5
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    Good points and maybe im seeing a different picture now.
    I would of and had no problem with him training away with them last year,and yes alot of athletes his age and ability but when it comes race time it would be great if he could stick on our club vest.Our Athletics corner is sparse enough in the local paper without losing another one.

    We also have a National League Team...minus a few points now :(


  • #6
    Rineanna
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭Rineanna


    I think the above posters have summed it up; there are a multitude of reasons an athlete might switch club: facilities, coaching, competition, convenience, etc.

    I understand a small club losing a good athlete will always cause some annoyance, but that decision at the end of the day is down to the athlete themselves. They have to be selfish when it comes to their career and can't prevent themselves from progressing just for the sake of club loyalty.

    Just as an aside, this topic is contentious enough, however I'd prefer if this convo was kept general rather than focusing on individual cases.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    In fairness Rineanna i think that decision is down to the clubs involved.
    Yes though,lets not individualise,your a voice of reason.

    An athlete is allowed to train with who ever he or she wants but running for a club is totally different.I know of big huge clubs where athletes come from all over to use the excellent indoor facilities and top class coaching but go back to their home clubs at the weekend and race for them.
    The great Emily Maher still ran for Kch..yeah i know,no individuals but the point is valid and repeated throught the country.
    I personally know of Athletes that trained with the legend Jim Kilty but still ran for their clubs.


  • #8
    hunnymonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭hunnymonster


    Dangermouse, by that reasoning the clubs with the good facilities have all the expenses of providing those facilities without any of the rewards of the athletes who use them racing for the club that facilitates them. That would be a bigger problem imo.


    to relate it to something else. My gym was flooded last week and will be closed for 6 months. Did I hesitate to join another gym because "my" gym couldn't give me what I need at the moment, not a chance.


  • #9
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    No one is arguing my point of Emily Maher or the Jim Kilty sprint group,most of whom run for their feeder clubs at nationals.

    Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

    Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

    Lets be carefull,its surely a contentious issue with some people,im one for dialogue.


  • #10
    RoyMcC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭RoyMcC


    As far as I can tell this is a relatively uncommon phenomenom in Ireland. There appears to be a great deal of loyalty with athletes staying with their clubs for the long haul.

    Compare to the UK where club success is more important, especially at British League level. A lot of unofficial approaches and monetary promises are made and junior clubs often lose out.

    But who is to say that this is a bad thing for the sport? It concentrates the talent towards the top clubs who (generally) have the best facilities, coaches and support structures. Maybe Ireland needs more of this.

    Of course DangerMouse is right in that smaller clubs suffer and when coaching relationships break up it is hard. But maybe that's the price that needs to be paid?


  • #11
    dna_leri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

    Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

    .

    Organising Athletics on a county basis is a genuine alternative to small clubs with limited resources.

    In fairness to AAI, they are already moving in this direction (by accident or policy I'm not sure) as Athletics is already organised on a county basis (county boards etc) and they encourage clubs to join together for events such as National League - such as Athletics Galway and Athletics Kerry (so called super-clubs as discussed here previously).

    I think this is the way to go at senior and junior levels where there are diminishing numbers but without forcing it in counties where it is not needed. The option then is to continue with juvenile 'feeder' clubs in the local areas as needed.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    No one is arguing my point of Emily Maher or the Jim Kilty sprint group,most of whom run for their feeder clubs at nationals.

    No, lots of the Jim Kilty group when it was in its pomp switched to DCH. Shinkins, Maher, Opperman, Hough. There was a larger than normal club switch in that group than you would get in other non-club based training groups. Not a bad thing though.
    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

    Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

    Lets be carefull,its surely a contentious issue with some people,im one for dialogue.

    My idea of the 'Super Clubs' would be like this. Only 12-15 super clubs around the country. Certain requirements needed. Each club must have a Director of Coaching (level 2 or higher), several Level 2 coaches, good facilities or access to facilities, each club must have linkages to a local school, have 3 or 4 juvenile feeder clubs. It would lead to a natural creation of centres of excellence.

    Right now there are too many clubs with too few coaches and too many athletes doing their own thing and not training/racing together. If you filtered the best athletes and coaches into 12 or 15 setups around the country then I reckon we would see our sport grow and improve on all levels - competition, coaching etc.


  • #13
    Domer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 452 ✭✭Domer


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

    This has actually been happening in Monaghan were they have put together a Monaghan County running club. The idea is that it will be the senior club for all the juvenile clubs in the countly, thus producing 1 viable club capable of competing in national league and team competitions.

    On the subject of transferring athletes, this is always a problem, and in my own club we have seen some of our best athletes transfering. If they are moving for the right reasons then so be it. Better to loose them from the club then loose them from the sport! As the Raheny Shamrocks motto says "one life, one club"


  • #14
    mrak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭mrak


    Mayo AC also has a single club for the county at least at a senior level - I think perhaps Sligo AC as well..? I actually prefer for road running if there are more smaller clubs. This is the way in Galway and it means that things like the county XC and road champs, etc are generally fairly competitive. Okay it also means that at national level the galway clubs aren't as competitive as they might be but there is always the intercounty medals to challenge for.

    At the end of the day most people won't train unless it's convenient for them and it's better if there's a group meeting in your locality that you can turn up and train with. You can have the best coach or facilities in the world but if you or your parents have to do a 2 hour round trip a couple of times a week you most likely won't keep it up.


  • #15
    Jackie_Dazzler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭Jackie_Dazzler


    <mod edit: we don't allow that kind of thing around here>


  • #16
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    The Super Club idea would be very good,for just National Leagues to improve the quality in the long run,as Tingle mentioned with better setups.

    Maybe its just me but i see more sense in athletes moving for road or cross country national team titles than track ones?

    Good points all around.Thanks for the responses and advice


  • #17
    Stupid_Private
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Stupid_Private


    One thing I liked about UK athletics was the primary and secondary clubs (I'm beginning to notice that every thread that gets started about problems with clubs and races I end up pointing to UKA or ANI as examples of good systems that could be copied). You could compete for either club in competitions throughout the year but if the two clubs were in direct competition then you must race for your primary club.

    If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).


  • #18
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Stupid_Private wrote: »
    One thing I liked about UK athletics was the primary and secondary clubs (I'm beginning to notice that every thread that gets started about problems with clubs and races I end up pointing to UKA or ANI as examples of good systems that could be copied). You could compete for either club in competitions throughout the year but if the two clubs were in direct competition then you must race for your primary club.

    If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).

    Thats sounds like a very good system and would get over the problem of the differences between clubs in relation to track and country/road for example. So, you could run with your primary club for track and secondary for country.

    I wonder has it ever been looked at as an option here? Are we too entrenched in the club thing to give it a try I wonder?


  • #19
    RoyMcC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭RoyMcC


    Stupid_Private wrote: »

    If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).

    This system also gives the opportunity for talented athletes to compete at a higher level (for example National League, maybe two or three meets) whilst retaining their affiliation to the club where they might have trained and/or been coached for years.

    It works perfectly in the Channel Islands (for example) where the best Jersey and Guernsey athletes combine in the British League under the banner of Channel Islands AC. Neither island has the resources to maintain a BL team on their own.

    But these athletes are then able to wear the JSAC or GIAAC vest on other occasions, notably in the annual Jersey v Guernsey match.


  • #20
    IrishTrackFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38 ✭IrishTrackFan


    Agree with the idea of larger centres of excellence - the county basis is a natural one for us in this country with the GAA as a reference point and it would make for a much better league.
    But larger clubs with juvenile/feeder clubs is also key to delivery of better coaching etc all year round and not just for an annual league competition.


  • #21
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    Well by all accounts the new AAI head is smart and open to suggestions, why not draft a proposal and put it to him?


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    Well by all accounts the new AAI head is smart and open to suggestions, why not draft a proposal and put it to him?

    Yes indeed. I sent something along these lines to his predecessor. Might draft up something and send along.


  • #23
    emerald007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 669 ✭✭✭emerald007


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    Well by all accounts the new AAI head i

    slight tangent: who is the new AAI head?


  • #24
    helpisontheway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭helpisontheway


    The new CEO could love the idea lads but i would imagine it would have to be discussed and approved at congress in April.
    Therefore it would make more sense to put the idea to your county board and get them to put it forward.
    I personally agree with the idea of superclubs/counties and primary/secondary clubs/counties.


  • #25
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Transfers:
    Under AAI rules, transfers are largely covered by individual county board bye-laws and vary considerably from county to county. Some counties allow transfers anytime, while some only allow in one particular month each year. Cork only allows transfers in March and September, with inter-county transfers allowed any time.

    In general, I favour a two pronged approach - one for adults and one for children.

    The situation is a minefield where children are concerned. There is huge competition between clubs, with a lot of wheelin' & dealin' involved - 'poaching' goes on wholesale. I've come across cases where clubs have offered to pay travelling expenses to have talented youngsters transfer. Along with this you have the situation where Mary transfers, then her friends Jo & Molly want to go too and in a short time, a small club can be almost decimated. Add to this ambituous parents who want to have Jack trained by a 'better' coach/club. Imho, controls DEFINITELY required with youngsters.

    On the other hand, adults generally don't transfer without good reason, so I believe that transfers should be allowed anytime. One thing I've noticed, over many years, is that quite a few of the transferring adults disappear from the scene within quite a short time (a year or two) of transferring. [For the record, I spent 14 years with one club before transferring and am 12 years with my current club - BIG mistake, should have transferred sooner!!)


  • #26
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    emerald007 wrote: »
    slight tangent: who is the new AAI head?

    John Foley, thread here.


  • #27
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Superclubs

    From a geographic view, the idea of single club for a whole county isn't on, even if you consider small counties like Carlow & Louth. Cork is approx. 120 miles long - imagine travelling 2/3rds of the distance from Cork to Dublin, just to get to training!

    I also reckon that 'super clubs' would actually stifle competition. At the moment, it appears to me, that no one club is dominating any area - all have their strengths and weaknesses. Do we really want to create an 'untouchable' club anywhere in the country, that will just kill off the opposition. (Maybe we should carry the 'logic' to the end and just have a single national club :confused::confused::confused:)

    Over the years, there have been several amalgamations, mainly for admin and dwindling numbers reasons, with a few logical ones (two or more clubs, more or less just getting by, in a small area). Some of these have been like shooting stars - short and fiery and then gone, leaving nothing in their wake. On the other hand, many have done very well. The shining example that comes to mind is West Waterford AC (makes me drool just to think of how successful that organisation has become, both in competition and in terms of serving their members. On top of that, they're a nice crowd too!)

    On the whole, the idea of super-clubs is quite attractive, but it needs a great deal of thought AND, in particular, GOOD admin, to successfully make the transition and keep everyone involved in the sport - there is a grave danger of many members dropping away.


  • #28
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Condo131 wrote: »
    Superclubs

    From a geographic view, the idea of single club for a whole county isn't on, even if you consider small counties like Carlow & Louth. Cork is approx. 120 miles long - imagine travelling 2/3rds of the distance from Cork to Dublin, just to get to training!

    .

    Counties like Cork could have more than 1 super club, dependent on who has facilities. This model applies more to track and field (at senior) as opposed to road or country, bear that in mind. Right now there is one super club in Cork, Leevale. I'm sorry but from a track perspective the rest aren't at the races and the standard is shocking which is very sad with the exception of maybe Togher (or maybe Bandon) who have good distance. So, the model by default exists in Cork but to get all the best track athletes (and coaches) in Cork training together or competing for Leevale (or Togher) in National Champs will never happen (maybe they do). You talk of geography, surely if you are a track and field athlete you will need a track, this will be the natural geograhpic base and T&F will naturally flock to here now as is. So, no difference there. Any half decent track athletes will travel to a track when they get older.
    Condo131 wrote: »
    I also reckon that 'super clubs' would actually stifle competition. At the moment, it appears to me, that no one club is dominating any area - all have their strengths and weaknesses. Do we really want to create an 'untouchable' club anywhere in the country, that will just kill off the opposition. (Maybe we should carry the 'logic' to the end and just have a single national club :confused::confused::confused:)

    Again, from a T&F perspective at senior, not true. Leevale dominate Cork, Ferrybank in Waterford, Menapians in Waterford, St Abbans in Laois, Tullamore in Offaly, Sli Cualainn in Wicklow and so on. Dublin has good competition with DSD, Cru, Raheny and Clonliffe. To be honest competition is dead at the moment in T&F. This is why I think this changes are needed. We have too many clubs with too few coaches spread too far. Less clubs with more coaches. Can you name me the clubs in Ireland who have the experienced coaches in the following areas:
    • Sprints
    • Hurdles
    • Jumps
    • Throws
    • Middle
    • Long

    Very few and those that do are probably covered by 1 or 2 coaches instead of 9 or 10.
    Condo131 wrote: »
    Over the years, there have been several amalgamations, mainly for admin and dwindling numbers reasons, with a few logical ones (two or more clubs, more or less just getting by, in a small area). Some of these have been like shooting stars - short and fiery and then gone, leaving nothing in their wake. On the other hand, many have done very well. The shining example that comes to mind is West Waterford AC (makes me drool just to think of how successful that organisation has become, both in competition and in terms of serving their members. On top of that, they're a nice crowd too!)

    .

    Again, from a T&F perspective West Waterford are not a shining example. I look and see they have some good athletes coming through who may ultimately be good on the national stage but again from a High Performance/Coaching/Competition perspective in Waterford the model to follow in my mind is Ferrybank. I'm not talking recreation runner or winter league here, I'm talking about how we get our athletes to be as good as they can be, getting to worlds, europeans etc.

    This is where a distinction needs to be made. When I talk of super clubs I primarily refer to T&F at senior. The challenge would be to fit in a potentially different club structure at road/country. Inclusiveness and fit4life and recreational running are all great but the clubs also have a responsibility to feed the high performance element of our sport. To me, looking at the few clubs that are doing that at present are the the ones that operate on a 'super club' basis as it stands. Outside of that, its individual athletes who are doing their own thing.

    You can still have your layer of clubs beneath the super clubs whose focus is not producing world class long jumpers or international steeplechasers or javelin throwers.


  • #29
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Tingle wrote: »
    Counties like Cork could have more than 1 super club, dependent on who has facilities. This model applies more to track and field (at senior) as opposed to road or country, bear that in mind.
    You're focusing only on T&F. I look at the whole spectrum. I also hadn't intended to make this a 'Cork issue' - it's a countrywide issue.
    Tingle wrote: »
    Right now there is one super club in Cork, Leevale. I'm sorry but from a track perspective the rest aren't at the races and the standard is shocking which is very sad with the exception of maybe Togher (or maybe Bandon)
    who have good distance.
    I can't disagree with you there, from a T&F point of view. oth, Leevale haven't won a county senior XC for well over a decade, and weren't even able to field a team for most of that decade.
    Tingle wrote: »
    ....to get all the best track athletes (and coaches) in Cork training together or competing for Leevale (or Togher) in National Champs will never happen (maybe they do).
    True....Never....
    Tingle wrote: »
    You talk of geography, surely if you are a track and field athlete you will need a track, this will be the natural geograhpic base and T&F will naturally flock to here now as is. So, no difference there. Any half decent track athletes will travel to a track when they get older.
    We're talking about massive distances here. Bantry to Cork is something like 60 miles, over rotten roads, say 75 mins each way, plus training time. Can't see aeven a half decent athlete doing that on a regular basis. (This is a facility problem, not an athlete/club problem, though)
    Tingle wrote: »
    We have too many clubs with too few coaches spread too far. Less clubs with more coaches.
    Nope. Ireland, particularly in athletics, is MILES behind every other country in Europe wrt the number of qualified coaches. IMHO, the issue is primarliy about getting more people involved in coaching and then getting them trained & certified. We don't need to cut the no clubs to fit a group of coaches - lots more coaches are required. OK it'll take a (good) while to flesh out the coaching pool and gain experience & expertise, but we've got to start somewhere.
    Tingle wrote: »
    Can you name me the clubs in Ireland who have the experienced coaches in the following areas:
    Your point being exactly?
    I can't name most of the coaches in our other local clubs, with few exceptions, I certainly don't know what area(s) they specialise in and I don't know what level they're certified to.
    Tingle wrote: »
    Again, from a T&F perspective West Waterford are not a shining example. I look and see they have some good athletes coming through who may ultimately be good on the national stage but again from a High Performance/Coaching/Competition perspective in Waterford the model to follow in my mind is Ferrybank.
    WW are a relatively young club, it takes time for things to work through, but, as a total athletic entity, IMHO my original statement stands.
    Tingle wrote: »
    I'm not talking recreation runner or winter league here, I'm talking about how we get our athletes to be as good as they can be, getting to worlds, europeans etc.
    So.... wrt superclubs, recreational runners need not apply? I don't think you really mean that, but it's a pyramid - for every athlete getting to european/world level, we probably have, what, a thousand below him/her. ..and besides, the rank and file actually fund these people indirectly.
    Tingle wrote: »
    This is where a distinction needs to be made. When I talk of super clubs I primarily refer to T&F at senior.
    You can't cherry pick. A super club is one that covers the entire championship spectrum, otherwise we're talking T&F superclubs, XC superclub, road superclub. If we have specialist superclubs, what do we call one that covers all aspects, a super-duper club???

    Tingle wrote: »
    The challenge would be to fit in a potentially different club structure at road/country. Inclusiveness and fit4life and recreational running are all great but the clubs also have a responsibility to feed the high performance element of our sport.
    Agreed.
    Tingle wrote: »
    To me, looking at the few clubs that are doing that at present are the the ones that operate on a 'super club' basis as it stands. Outside of that, its individual athletes who are doing their own thing.
    Success breeds success. It's an unfortunate (from the club's point of view) fact of life that the most talented athletes gravitate toward these more successful clubs, so the pool in the other clubs never reaches 'critical mass'.
    Tingle wrote: »
    You can still have your layer of clubs beneath the super clubs whose focus is not producing world class long jumpers or international steeplechasers or javelin throwers.

    I don't think most clubs would be happy at being feeder clubs for these super clubs, and I think that's what this amounts to.

    On paper the super club model you advocate sounds good, in reality we already have it with some clubs, however, imho, there are a lot of issues under the surface and I'm certainly not going to discuss them here ( at risk of thread lock and/or banning, not to mention legal consequences) [Been around a long time and there's LOTS of history of 'skullduggery' wrt some of these existing super clubs and 'incentives' for transfers]


  • #30
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    This has been sparking some excellent debate and items which i for one will raise at our next agm.

    The Super Club concept i think would excite the national track and field league in unimaginable ways.
    Clubs could actually use their county championships as a staging post for selection.I ran the 110mh and 400mh at the National League Final,along with two others,we were shockingly bad! as per usual,i was covering for another athlete in an event which was not my forte at all.County trials would make this easier.

    Maybe an increase in the scope of the National League might help as well...possibly a 5km road race which would allow the distance running clubs(smaller ones with no track) to garner points for Athletics Laois or Athletics Longford or wherever.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Condo131 wrote: »
    You're focusing only on T&F. I look at the whole spectrum. I also hadn't intended to make this a 'Cork issue' - it's a countrywide issue.

    Yes, I think T&F need to be looked at differently. Cross and road is very straighforward. You need simple facilities. You can have very focused coaches. T&F needs to be looked at separetly. You need facilities, you need many coaches who are specialists in many events.

    What would be your solution for T&F while looking at the wider spectrum. How will we get kids aged 14 in the arsehole of nowhere being able to hurdle off both legs or develop a good leg shoot in the long jump or master the rotation in the SP. Not in the current environment for sure. Its my opinion both coaches and athletes will prosper when they train and coach together. Doesn't have to be 5 days a week, maybe weekly or every 2-3 weeks. Some places are staring to do this, Kerry County Board for example.
    Condo131 wrote: »
    I can't disagree with you there, from a T&F point of view. oth, Leevale haven't won a county senior XC for well over a decade, and weren't even able to field a team for most of that decade.

    Yes, but they are top drawer at T&F. On the matter, when was the last time a decent club team came out of Cork in a cross perspective. Long time. Cross there must be dying, track isn't thanks to Leevale. For me, it validates the super club concept. In Cork, no super club when it comes to cross and as a result they can't compete nationally, 1 super club when it comes to track and they are succesfull nationally at both mens and womens.

    Condo131 wrote: »
    We're talking about massive distances here. Bantry to Cork is something like 60 miles, over rotten roads, say 75 mins each way, plus training time. Can't see aeven a half decent athlete doing that on a regular basis. (This is a facility problem, not an athlete/club problem, though)


    If you are a T&F athlete from Bantry where do they currently train? No track nearby then maybe Bantry could become a club centre of excellence for road or cross or hills. Don't know.
    Condo131 wrote: »

    Nope. Ireland, particularly in athletics, is MILES behind every other country in Europe wrt the number of qualified coaches. IMHO, the issue is primarliy about getting more people involved in coaching and then getting them trained & certified. We don't need to cut the no clubs to fit a group of coaches - lots more coaches are required. OK it'll take a (good) while to flesh out the coaching pool and gain experience & expertise, but we've got to start somewhere.


    We have enough good coaches and enough aspiring coaches so that we can work it better at present. You can do all the courses and certs you want but its worth nothing unless you are getting on the job training. Much better to have a coach in a small club meeting with other better coaches in their master club once a week and learning on the job as opposed to ploughing away on their own and trying to apply what they read in their book or can remember from their course.


    Condo131 wrote: »
    Your point being exactly?
    I can't name most of the coaches in our other local clubs, with few exceptions, I certainly don't know what area(s) they specialise in and I don't know what level they're certified to.
    Simple point. It shows that to be a proper T&F club you need coaches with expertise in 6 key areas. How many clubs have that? Very few. How many counties have that? Quite a few. Lets come together then as a county (super club) and share our knowledge. May I ask, as an example, what coverage of coaching expertise is in your own club? Do you feel your coaching coverage has shortfalls in order to properly develop your athletes. Do you know of coaches locally or in other clubs who could plug this gap?


    Condo131 wrote: »
    So.... wrt superclubs, recreational runners need not apply? I don't think you really mean that, but it's a pyramid - for every athlete getting to european/world level, we probably have, what, a thousand below him/her. ..and besides, the rank and file actually fund these people indirectly.


    You can't cherry pick. A super club is one that covers the entire championship spectrum, otherwise we're talking T&F superclubs, XC superclub, road superclub. If we have specialist superclubs, what do we call one that covers all aspects, a super-duper club???

    No recreational runners will still have a place. Several of the current 'super clubs' like Raheny for example have excellent recreational schemes. You are right I don't mean super clubs will only have elite athletes.

    Yep, you could have a super duper club. We have a few already. Mainly in Dublin. Raheny, DSD, Clonliffe. This is were the point Stupid P made, you could run with your secondary club for cross and primary of T&F, or vice versa.


    Condo131 wrote: »
    Success breeds success. It's an unfortunate (from the club's point of view) fact of life that the most talented athletes gravitate toward these more successful clubs, so the pool in the other clubs never reaches 'critical mass'.

    I don't think most clubs would be happy at being feeder clubs for these super clubs, and I think that's what this amounts to.

    On paper the super club model you advocate sounds good, in reality we already have it with some clubs, however, imho, there are a lot of issues under the surface and I'm certainly not going to discuss them here ( at risk of thread lock and/or banning, not to mention legal consequences) [Been around a long time and there's LOTS of history of 'skullduggery' wrt some of these existing super clubs and 'incentives' for transfers]

    We used to have the feeder structure before in BLE and BLOE. Not all juvenile clubs (BLOE) were senior (BLE) clubs. It worked well. My BLOE club fed into a BLE club. I trained with the BLE club once a week. Put a proper feeder system in place and the skullduggery you speak of will disappear as there will be no need for it.

    We can speak all day about this. Parochial and club politics will probably mean it'll never happen. Will we ever see Joe and Dick sitting down to pick the team for the North Dublin Harrier Shamrocks:) I think the county board route could work though. Meath and Kerry are an example. It'll be interesting to see if other follow suit.


Advertisement