Transfer of Athletes...

DangerMouse27

Good Afternoon all,i wanted to get a few opinions on a situation i find becoming more prevalent and worrying.
The transfer of young athletes to bigger clubs.

In my location we had a very promising 400m runner who has transferred to Tullamore..20 miles away.This athlete trained there before his transfer and raced for us, but now trains and races for that club.
The problem now is that we have lost a promising young athlete,inspiration for our juveniles.No longer will his name grace our athletics section of the local paper and no longer will locals identify him as a member of our club while not wearing our colours.And yes,i did say inspiration as quite a number of locals would look up to him.
So why transfer? its of no immediate benefit,for nay relay teams but surely club loyalty comes ahead of that..surely?

mrak

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

This athlete trained there before his transfer and raced for us, but now trains and races for that club.

It's too broad a topic to comment on much - so many individual situations but in the case above the move seems understandable. If you are training with your clubmates running is more fun, and you are more likely to stick with it for longer.

Recruiting folk from outside your geographical radius will always leave you open to them joining a more convenient club. If athletes from a distance away ask about joining our club we generally advise them to check out their local club first if there is one nearer - unless they are good of course (just kidding ha ha).

hunnymonster

What age is he? If he is using the facilities and coaching of the other club then I would think it's only fair he races for them? The next question is why did he move? It's doesn't appear to be location, so are there facilities or coaches at the new club that he can't get in his old club?

One thing I've noticed a lot is smaller (parish based) clubs having a lot of younger members and these gradually fall away from the sport in and around the exam years. The older athletes obviously need different types of training from the younger kids so they tend to gravitate to where there is a critical mass of people their own age.

dna_leri

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

Good Afternoon all,i wanted to get a few opinions on a situation i find becoming more prevalent and worrying.
The transfer of young athletes to bigger clubs.


So why transfer? its of no immediate benefit,for nay relay teams but surely club loyalty comes ahead of that..surely?

I think you have personalised the situation above too much but why transfer?
Possibly - better facilities, better coaches, opportunity to train with others of similar ability, better structure to develop through junior and senior ranks, join with friends....
If you are concerned about why a particular athlete has moved you could ask them - you may get feedback about how you could improve your club.

DangerMouse27

Good points and maybe im seeing a different picture now.
I would of and had no problem with him training away with them last year,and yes alot of athletes his age and ability but when it comes race time it would be great if he could stick on our club vest.Our Athletics corner is sparse enough in the local paper without losing another one.

We also have a National League Team...minus a few points now

Rineanna

I think the above posters have summed it up; there are a multitude of reasons an athlete might switch club: facilities, coaching, competition, convenience, etc.

I understand a small club losing a good athlete will always cause some annoyance, but that decision at the end of the day is down to the athlete themselves. They have to be selfish when it comes to their career and can't prevent themselves from progressing just for the sake of club loyalty.

Just as an aside, this topic is contentious enough, however I'd prefer if this convo was kept general rather than focusing on individual cases.

DangerMouse27

In fairness Rineanna i think that decision is down to the clubs involved.
Yes though,lets not individualise,your a voice of reason.

An athlete is allowed to train with who ever he or she wants but running for a club is totally different.I know of big huge clubs where athletes come from all over to use the excellent indoor facilities and top class coaching but go back to their home clubs at the weekend and race for them.
The great Emily Maher still ran for Kch..yeah i know,no individuals but the point is valid and repeated throught the country.
I personally know of Athletes that trained with the legend Jim Kilty but still ran for their clubs.

hunnymonster

Dangermouse, by that reasoning the clubs with the good facilities have all the expenses of providing those facilities without any of the rewards of the athletes who use them racing for the club that facilitates them. That would be a bigger problem imo.


to relate it to something else. My gym was flooded last week and will be closed for 6 months. Did I hesitate to join another gym because "my" gym couldn't give me what I need at the moment, not a chance.

DangerMouse27

No one is arguing my point of Emily Maher or the Jim Kilty sprint group,most of whom run for their feeder clubs at nationals.

Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

Lets be carefull,its surely a contentious issue with some people,im one for dialogue.

RoyMcC

As far as I can tell this is a relatively uncommon phenomenom in Ireland. There appears to be a great deal of loyalty with athletes staying with their clubs for the long haul.

Compare to the UK where club success is more important, especially at British League level. A lot of unofficial approaches and monetary promises are made and junior clubs often lose out.

But who is to say that this is a bad thing for the sport? It concentrates the talent towards the top clubs who (generally) have the best facilities, coaches and support structures. Maybe Ireland needs more of this.

Of course DangerMouse is right in that smaller clubs suffer and when coaching relationships break up it is hard. But maybe that's the price that needs to be paid?

dna_leri

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

.

Organising Athletics on a county basis is a genuine alternative to small clubs with limited resources.

In fairness to AAI, they are already moving in this direction (by accident or policy I'm not sure) as Athletics is already organised on a county basis (county boards etc) and they encourage clubs to join together for events such as National League - such as Athletics Galway and Athletics Kerry (so called super-clubs as discussed here previously).

I think this is the way to go at senior and junior levels where there are diminishing numbers but without forcing it in counties where it is not needed. The option then is to continue with juvenile 'feeder' clubs in the local areas as needed.

thirtyfoot

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

No one is arguing my point of Emily Maher or the Jim Kilty sprint group,most of whom run for their feeder clubs at nationals.

No, lots of the Jim Kilty group when it was in its pomp switched to DCH. Shinkins, Maher, Opperman, Hough. There was a larger than normal club switch in that group than you would get in other non-club based training groups. Not a bad thing though.

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

Clubs with facilities have populations to fill them hunnymonster,but smaller clubs will have problems.

Lets be carefull,its surely a contentious issue with some people,im one for dialogue.

My idea of the 'Super Clubs' would be like this. Only 12-15 super clubs around the country. Certain requirements needed. Each club must have a Director of Coaching (level 2 or higher), several Level 2 coaches, good facilities or access to facilities, each club must have linkages to a local school, have 3 or 4 juvenile feeder clubs. It would lead to a natural creation of centres of excellence.

Right now there are too many clubs with too few coaches and too many athletes doing their own thing and not training/racing together. If you filtered the best athletes and coaches into 12 or 15 setups around the country then I reckon we would see our sport grow and improve on all levels - competition, coaching etc.

Domer

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

Whats the alternative..Athletics Offaly..Athletics Wexford..Athletics Laois and lets do away with the clubs?

This has actually been happening in Monaghan were they have put together a Monaghan County running club. The idea is that it will be the senior club for all the juvenile clubs in the countly, thus producing 1 viable club capable of competing in national league and team competitions.

On the subject of transferring athletes, this is always a problem, and in my own club we have seen some of our best athletes transfering. If they are moving for the right reasons then so be it. Better to loose them from the club then loose them from the sport! As the Raheny Shamrocks motto says "one life, one club"

mrak

Mayo AC also has a single club for the county at least at a senior level - I think perhaps Sligo AC as well..? I actually prefer for road running if there are more smaller clubs. This is the way in Galway and it means that things like the county XC and road champs, etc are generally fairly competitive. Okay it also means that at national level the galway clubs aren't as competitive as they might be but there is always the intercounty medals to challenge for.

At the end of the day most people won't train unless it's convenient for them and it's better if there's a group meeting in your locality that you can turn up and train with. You can have the best coach or facilities in the world but if you or your parents have to do a 2 hour round trip a couple of times a week you most likely won't keep it up.

Jackie_Dazzler

<mod edit: we don't allow that kind of thing around here>

DangerMouse27

The Super Club idea would be very good,for just National Leagues to improve the quality in the long run,as Tingle mentioned with better setups.

Maybe its just me but i see more sense in athletes moving for road or cross country national team titles than track ones?

Good points all around.Thanks for the responses and advice

Stupid_Private

One thing I liked about UK athletics was the primary and secondary clubs (I'm beginning to notice that every thread that gets started about problems with clubs and races I end up pointing to UKA or ANI as examples of good systems that could be copied). You could compete for either club in competitions throughout the year but if the two clubs were in direct competition then you must race for your primary club.

If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

One thing I liked about UK athletics was the primary and secondary clubs (I'm beginning to notice that every thread that gets started about problems with clubs and races I end up pointing to UKA or ANI as examples of good systems that could be copied). You could compete for either club in competitions throughout the year but if the two clubs were in direct competition then you must race for your primary club.

If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).

Thats sounds like a very good system and would get over the problem of the differences between clubs in relation to track and country/road for example. So, you could run with your primary club for track and secondary for country.

I wonder has it ever been looked at as an option here? Are we too entrenched in the club thing to give it a try I wonder?

RoyMcC

Stupid_Private wrote: »

If for example I was to move to Galway for a year this would allow me to train and race with any club in Galway - to compete in Galway and Connaght championships wearing their vest. When the Nationals rolled around though I would have to race for my Dublin club (provided they fielded a team of course).

This system also gives the opportunity for talented athletes to compete at a higher level (for example National League, maybe two or three meets) whilst retaining their affiliation to the club where they might have trained and/or been coached for years.

It works perfectly in the Channel Islands (for example) where the best Jersey and Guernsey athletes combine in the British League under the banner of Channel Islands AC. Neither island has the resources to maintain a BL team on their own.

But these athletes are then able to wear the JSAC or GIAAC vest on other occasions, notably in the annual Jersey v Guernsey match.

IrishTrackFan

Agree with the idea of larger centres of excellence - the county basis is a natural one for us in this country with the GAA as a reference point and it would make for a much better league.
But larger clubs with juvenile/feeder clubs is also key to delivery of better coaching etc all year round and not just for an annual league competition.

--amadeus--

Well by all accounts the new AAI head is smart and open to suggestions, why not draft a proposal and put it to him?

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well by all accounts the new AAI head is smart and open to suggestions, why not draft a proposal and put it to him?

Yes indeed. I sent something along these lines to his predecessor. Might draft up something and send along.

emerald007

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well by all accounts the new AAI head i

slight tangent: who is the new AAI head?

helpisontheway

The new CEO could love the idea lads but i would imagine it would have to be discussed and approved at congress in April.
Therefore it would make more sense to put the idea to your county board and get them to put it forward.
I personally agree with the idea of superclubs/counties and primary/secondary clubs/counties.

Condo131

Transfers:
Under AAI rules, transfers are largely covered by individual county board bye-laws and vary considerably from county to county. Some counties allow transfers anytime, while some only allow in one particular month each year. Cork only allows transfers in March and September, with inter-county transfers allowed any time.

In general, I favour a two pronged approach - one for adults and one for children.

The situation is a minefield where children are concerned. There is huge competition between clubs, with a lot of wheelin' & dealin' involved - 'poaching' goes on wholesale. I've come across cases where clubs have offered to pay travelling expenses to have talented youngsters transfer. Along with this you have the situation where Mary transfers, then her friends Jo & Molly want to go too and in a short time, a small club can be almost decimated. Add to this ambituous parents who want to have Jack trained by a 'better' coach/club. Imho, controls DEFINITELY required with youngsters.

On the other hand, adults generally don't transfer without good reason, so I believe that transfers should be allowed anytime. One thing I've noticed, over many years, is that quite a few of the transferring adults disappear from the scene within quite a short time (a year or two) of transferring. [For the record, I spent 14 years with one club before transferring and am 12 years with my current club - BIG mistake, should have transferred sooner!!)

--amadeus--

emerald007 wrote: »

slight tangent: who is the new AAI head?

John Foley, thread here.

Condo131

Superclubs

From a geographic view, the idea of single club for a whole county isn't on, even if you consider small counties like Carlow & Louth. Cork is approx. 120 miles long - imagine travelling 2/3rds of the distance from Cork to Dublin, just to get to training!

I also reckon that 'super clubs' would actually stifle competition. At the moment, it appears to me, that no one club is dominating any area - all have their strengths and weaknesses. Do we really want to create an 'untouchable' club anywhere in the country, that will just kill off the opposition. (Maybe we should carry the 'logic' to the end and just have a single national club )

Over the years, there have been several amalgamations, mainly for admin and dwindling numbers reasons, with a few logical ones (two or more clubs, more or less just getting by, in a small area). Some of these have been like shooting stars - short and fiery and then gone, leaving nothing in their wake. On the other hand, many have done very well. The shining example that comes to mind is West Waterford AC (makes me drool just to think of how successful that organisation has become, both in competition and in terms of serving their members. On top of that, they're a nice crowd too!)

On the whole, the idea of super-clubs is quite attractive, but it needs a great deal of thought AND, in particular, GOOD admin, to successfully make the transition and keep everyone involved in the sport - there is a grave danger of many members dropping away.

thirtyfoot

Condo131 wrote: »

Superclubs

From a geographic view, the idea of single club for a whole county isn't on, even if you consider small counties like Carlow & Louth. Cork is approx. 120 miles long - imagine travelling 2/3rds of the distance from Cork to Dublin, just to get to training!

.

Counties like Cork could have more than 1 super club, dependent on who has facilities. This model applies more to track and field (at senior) as opposed to road or country, bear that in mind. Right now there is one super club in Cork, Leevale. I'm sorry but from a track perspective the rest aren't at the races and the standard is shocking which is very sad with the exception of maybe Togher (or maybe Bandon) who have good distance. So, the model by default exists in Cork but to get all the best track athletes (and coaches) in Cork training together or competing for Leevale (or Togher) in National Champs will never happen (maybe they do). You talk of geography, surely if you are a track and field athlete you will need a track, this will be the natural geograhpic base and T&F will naturally flock to here now as is. So, no difference there. Any half decent track athletes will travel to a track when they get older.

Condo131 wrote: »

I also reckon that 'super clubs' would actually stifle competition. At the moment, it appears to me, that no one club is dominating any area - all have their strengths and weaknesses. Do we really want to create an 'untouchable' club anywhere in the country, that will just kill off the opposition. (Maybe we should carry the 'logic' to the end and just have a single national club )

Again, from a T&F perspective at senior, not true. Leevale dominate Cork, Ferrybank in Waterford, Menapians in Waterford, St Abbans in Laois, Tullamore in Offaly, Sli Cualainn in Wicklow and so on. Dublin has good competition with DSD, Cru, Raheny and Clonliffe. To be honest competition is dead at the moment in T&F. This is why I think this changes are needed. We have too many clubs with too few coaches spread too far. Less clubs with more coaches. Can you name me the clubs in Ireland who have the experienced coaches in the following areas:

• Sprints
• Hurdles
• Jumps
• Throws
• Middle
• Long

Very few and those that do are probably covered by 1 or 2 coaches instead of 9 or 10.

Condo131 wrote: »

Over the years, there have been several amalgamations, mainly for admin and dwindling numbers reasons, with a few logical ones (two or more clubs, more or less just getting by, in a small area). Some of these have been like shooting stars - short and fiery and then gone, leaving nothing in their wake. On the other hand, many have done very well. The shining example that comes to mind is West Waterford AC (makes me drool just to think of how successful that organisation has become, both in competition and in terms of serving their members. On top of that, they're a nice crowd too!)

.

Again, from a T&F perspective West Waterford are not a shining example. I look and see they have some good athletes coming through who may ultimately be good on the national stage but again from a High Performance/Coaching/Competition perspective in Waterford the model to follow in my mind is Ferrybank. I'm not talking recreation runner or winter league here, I'm talking about how we get our athletes to be as good as they can be, getting to worlds, europeans etc.

This is where a distinction needs to be made. When I talk of super clubs I primarily refer to T&F at senior. The challenge would be to fit in a potentially different club structure at road/country. Inclusiveness and fit4life and recreational running are all great but the clubs also have a responsibility to feed the high performance element of our sport. To me, looking at the few clubs that are doing that at present are the the ones that operate on a 'super club' basis as it stands. Outside of that, its individual athletes who are doing their own thing.

You can still have your layer of clubs beneath the super clubs whose focus is not producing world class long jumpers or international steeplechasers or javelin throwers.

Condo131

Tingle wrote: »

Counties like Cork could have more than 1 super club, dependent on who has facilities. This model applies more to track and field (at senior) as opposed to road or country, bear that in mind.

You're focusing only on T&F. I look at the whole spectrum. I also hadn't intended to make this a 'Cork issue' - it's a countrywide issue.

Tingle wrote: »

Right now there is one super club in Cork, Leevale. I'm sorry but from a track perspective the rest aren't at the races and the standard is shocking which is very sad with the exception of maybe Togher (or maybe Bandon)
who have good distance.

I can't disagree with you there, from a T&F point of view. oth, Leevale haven't won a county senior XC for well over a decade, and weren't even able to field a team for most of that decade.

Tingle wrote: »

....to get all the best track athletes (and coaches) in Cork training together or competing for Leevale (or Togher) in National Champs will never happen (maybe they do).

True....Never....

Tingle wrote: »

You talk of geography, surely if you are a track and field athlete you will need a track, this will be the natural geograhpic base and T&F will naturally flock to here now as is. So, no difference there. Any half decent track athletes will travel to a track when they get older.

We're talking about massive distances here. Bantry to Cork is something like 60 miles, over rotten roads, say 75 mins each way, plus training time. Can't see aeven a half decent athlete doing that on a regular basis. (This is a facility problem, not an athlete/club problem, though)

Tingle wrote: »

We have too many clubs with too few coaches spread too far. Less clubs with more coaches.

Nope. Ireland, particularly in athletics, is MILES behind every other country in Europe wrt the number of qualified coaches. IMHO, the issue is primarliy about getting more people involved in coaching and then getting them trained & certified. We don't need to cut the no clubs to fit a group of coaches - lots more coaches are required. OK it'll take a (good) while to flesh out the coaching pool and gain experience & expertise, but we've got to start somewhere.

Tingle wrote: »

Can you name me the clubs in Ireland who have the experienced coaches in the following areas:

Your point being exactly?
I can't name most of the coaches in our other local clubs, with few exceptions, I certainly don't know what area(s) they specialise in and I don't know what level they're certified to.

Tingle wrote: »

Again, from a T&F perspective West Waterford are not a shining example. I look and see they have some good athletes coming through who may ultimately be good on the national stage but again from a High Performance/Coaching/Competition perspective in Waterford the model to follow in my mind is Ferrybank.

WW are a relatively young club, it takes time for things to work through, but, as a total athletic entity, IMHO my original statement stands.

Tingle wrote: »

I'm not talking recreation runner or winter league here, I'm talking about how we get our athletes to be as good as they can be, getting to worlds, europeans etc.

So.... wrt superclubs, recreational runners need not apply? I don't think you really mean that, but it's a pyramid - for every athlete getting to european/world level, we probably have, what, a thousand below him/her. ..and besides, the rank and file actually fund these people indirectly.

Tingle wrote: »

This is where a distinction needs to be made. When I talk of super clubs I primarily refer to T&F at senior.

You can't cherry pick. A super club is one that covers the entire championship spectrum, otherwise we're talking T&F superclubs, XC superclub, road superclub. If we have specialist superclubs, what do we call one that covers all aspects, a super-duper club???

Tingle wrote: »

The challenge would be to fit in a potentially different club structure at road/country. Inclusiveness and fit4life and recreational running are all great but the clubs also have a responsibility to feed the high performance element of our sport.

Agreed.

Tingle wrote: »

To me, looking at the few clubs that are doing that at present are the the ones that operate on a 'super club' basis as it stands. Outside of that, its individual athletes who are doing their own thing.

Success breeds success. It's an unfortunate (from the club's point of view) fact of life that the most talented athletes gravitate toward these more successful clubs, so the pool in the other clubs never reaches 'critical mass'.

Tingle wrote: »

You can still have your layer of clubs beneath the super clubs whose focus is not producing world class long jumpers or international steeplechasers or javelin throwers.

I don't think most clubs would be happy at being feeder clubs for these super clubs, and I think that's what this amounts to.

On paper the super club model you advocate sounds good, in reality we already have it with some clubs, however, imho, there are a lot of issues under the surface and I'm certainly not going to discuss them here ( at risk of thread lock and/or banning, not to mention legal consequences) [Been around a long time and there's LOTS of history of 'skullduggery' wrt some of these existing super clubs and 'incentives' for transfers]

DangerMouse27

This has been sparking some excellent debate and items which i for one will raise at our next agm.

The Super Club concept i think would excite the national track and field league in unimaginable ways.
Clubs could actually use their county championships as a staging post for selection.I ran the 110mh and 400mh at the National League Final,along with two others,we were shockingly bad! as per usual,i was covering for another athlete in an event which was not my forte at all.County trials would make this easier.

Maybe an increase in the scope of the National League might help as well...possibly a 5km road race which would allow the distance running clubs(smaller ones with no track) to garner points for Athletics Laois or Athletics Longford or wherever.

thirtyfoot

Condo131 wrote: »

You're focusing only on T&F. I look at the whole spectrum. I also hadn't intended to make this a 'Cork issue' - it's a countrywide issue.

Yes, I think T&F need to be looked at differently. Cross and road is very straighforward. You need simple facilities. You can have very focused coaches. T&F needs to be looked at separetly. You need facilities, you need many coaches who are specialists in many events.

What would be your solution for T&F while looking at the wider spectrum. How will we get kids aged 14 in the arsehole of nowhere being able to hurdle off both legs or develop a good leg shoot in the long jump or master the rotation in the SP. Not in the current environment for sure. Its my opinion both coaches and athletes will prosper when they train and coach together. Doesn't have to be 5 days a week, maybe weekly or every 2-3 weeks. Some places are staring to do this, Kerry County Board for example.

Condo131 wrote: »

I can't disagree with you there, from a T&F point of view. oth, Leevale haven't won a county senior XC for well over a decade, and weren't even able to field a team for most of that decade.

Yes, but they are top drawer at T&F. On the matter, when was the last time a decent club team came out of Cork in a cross perspective. Long time. Cross there must be dying, track isn't thanks to Leevale. For me, it validates the super club concept. In Cork, no super club when it comes to cross and as a result they can't compete nationally, 1 super club when it comes to track and they are succesfull nationally at both mens and womens.

Condo131 wrote: »

We're talking about massive distances here. Bantry to Cork is something like 60 miles, over rotten roads, say 75 mins each way, plus training time. Can't see aeven a half decent athlete doing that on a regular basis. (This is a facility problem, not an athlete/club problem, though)

If you are a T&F athlete from Bantry where do they currently train? No track nearby then maybe Bantry could become a club centre of excellence for road or cross or hills. Don't know.

Condo131 wrote: »

Nope. Ireland, particularly in athletics, is MILES behind every other country in Europe wrt the number of qualified coaches. IMHO, the issue is primarliy about getting more people involved in coaching and then getting them trained & certified. We don't need to cut the no clubs to fit a group of coaches - lots more coaches are required. OK it'll take a (good) while to flesh out the coaching pool and gain experience & expertise, but we've got to start somewhere.

We have enough good coaches and enough aspiring coaches so that we can work it better at present. You can do all the courses and certs you want but its worth nothing unless you are getting on the job training. Much better to have a coach in a small club meeting with other better coaches in their master club once a week and learning on the job as opposed to ploughing away on their own and trying to apply what they read in their book or can remember from their course.

Condo131 wrote: »

Your point being exactly?
I can't name most of the coaches in our other local clubs, with few exceptions, I certainly don't know what area(s) they specialise in and I don't know what level they're certified to.

Simple point. It shows that to be a proper T&F club you need coaches with expertise in 6 key areas. How many clubs have that? Very few. How many counties have that? Quite a few. Lets come together then as a county (super club) and share our knowledge. May I ask, as an example, what coverage of coaching expertise is in your own club? Do you feel your coaching coverage has shortfalls in order to properly develop your athletes. Do you know of coaches locally or in other clubs who could plug this gap?

Condo131 wrote: »

So.... wrt superclubs, recreational runners need not apply? I don't think you really mean that, but it's a pyramid - for every athlete getting to european/world level, we probably have, what, a thousand below him/her. ..and besides, the rank and file actually fund these people indirectly.


You can't cherry pick. A super club is one that covers the entire championship spectrum, otherwise we're talking T&F superclubs, XC superclub, road superclub. If we have specialist superclubs, what do we call one that covers all aspects, a super-duper club???

No recreational runners will still have a place. Several of the current 'super clubs' like Raheny for example have excellent recreational schemes. You are right I don't mean super clubs will only have elite athletes.

Yep, you could have a super duper club. We have a few already. Mainly in Dublin. Raheny, DSD, Clonliffe. This is were the point Stupid P made, you could run with your secondary club for cross and primary of T&F, or vice versa.

Condo131 wrote: »

Success breeds success. It's an unfortunate (from the club's point of view) fact of life that the most talented athletes gravitate toward these more successful clubs, so the pool in the other clubs never reaches 'critical mass'.

I don't think most clubs would be happy at being feeder clubs for these super clubs, and I think that's what this amounts to.

On paper the super club model you advocate sounds good, in reality we already have it with some clubs, however, imho, there are a lot of issues under the surface and I'm certainly not going to discuss them here ( at risk of thread lock and/or banning, not to mention legal consequences) [Been around a long time and there's LOTS of history of 'skullduggery' wrt some of these existing super clubs and 'incentives' for transfers]

We used to have the feeder structure before in BLE and BLOE. Not all juvenile clubs (BLOE) were senior (BLE) clubs. It worked well. My BLOE club fed into a BLE club. I trained with the BLE club once a week. Put a proper feeder system in place and the skullduggery you speak of will disappear as there will be no need for it.

We can speak all day about this. Parochial and club politics will probably mean it'll never happen. Will we ever see Joe and Dick sitting down to pick the team for the North Dublin Harrier Shamrocks:) I think the county board route could work though. Meath and Kerry are an example. It'll be interesting to see if other follow suit.

thirtyfoot

DangerMouse27 wrote: »

This has been sparking some excellent debate and items which i for one will raise at our next agm.

The Super Club concept i think would excite the national track and field league in unimaginable ways.
Clubs could actually use their county championships as a staging post for selection.I ran the 110mh and 400mh at the National League Final,along with two others,we were shockingly bad! as per usual,i was covering for another athlete in an event which was not my forte at all.County trials would make this easier.

Maybe an increase in the scope of the National League might help as well...possibly a 5km road race which would allow the distance running clubs(smaller ones with no track) to garner points for Athletics Laois or Athletics Longford or wherever.

Yes, the National League could be a great competition. It has been neglected by both the AAI and many clubs though. It may be changing. The introduction of the counties has added extra spice and more competition with Meath's men the best example. Kerry will have a mens and womens in Premier this year with ambitious plans for the future. Thats what we need. Clubs and counties getting ambitious, pushing the boat out. It'll create competition. Motivate clubs and counties to get their best athletes out, recruit new athletes, fill their shortfalls with new coaches. Competition is what its all about.

Dangermouse - what would you think of a more regional based League? Say have a national premier league of the top 8 clubs and then regional league feeding into that - say Dublin, North, Midland, West, South. Local league (less travelling) with winners progressing to play-off to gain entry to Premier. Make it an honour to be at Premier, 8 dedicated clubs, there by right. Then your club could also be chasing the Midlands title as well as promotion.

ChickenTikka

I don't like the concept of super clubs at juvenile level. To get large participation rates from a community, most training has to be done locally. If your best/elite juveniles have joined a superclub 20 miles away, it doesn't encourage the rest of the club athletes or coaches too much ... develop your athlete to a decent standard and then when they are u14 they're gone to a perceived better club and a perceived better coach and noone for other local athletes to look up to anymore.

I know that a higher standard of coaching is required and if its not available in your own club, getting it somewhere else is very desirable and necessary. But maybe the concept of county clubs would work as the super club and the county have their 'super squad' who meet on a regular basis where the facilities exist.

Also, we cannot just magic up the coaches in the location of the superclub. A good coach living in the a***hole of nowhere might not want to travel twice a week to the chosen superclub. Many juvenile coaches are already extremely overburdened just doing 6 or 7 hours a week coaching in their own club and travelling only 5 mins up the road to training, and probably balancing it with rearing their own kids at the same time. In my experience, most juvenile coaches start coaching in their local club because its local! And would prefer to spend an extra 2 hours coaching there rather than travelling an hour over and back to a superclub. We have to remember all of these coaches are volunteers. No money paid and in many (all?) cases, no expenses paid.

In my opinion, one of the reasons that hurling and football are so successful is that they are organised on a parochial basis and get the full support of their community because of this. We should learn from that. Would an elite West Waterford athlete get any pleasure or support from their community if representing Ferrybank? (Not picking on those 2 clubs - just that they've been mentioned in other posts already on this thread).

The county squad and county competition is the way to go for our elite juveniles, with progression to the same for seniors.

helpisontheway

One thing everyone in Ireland must admit regardless of what sport they take part in is that the GAA is overall a very successfully run organisation[I hate saying it:o].The best players go on to represent their County while the average palyers are left to enjoy their local club scene.We need to adopt some format of this idea especially at a juvenile level as dragging large amounts of kids all over the country for competitions is ridiculous!!!

In the present format very few clubs outside Dublin have decent long term viable senior T+F teams;there a few exceptions as already mentioned Ferrybank,Leevale,etc.Dublin clubs will always have a huge advantage at senior level due to the amount of athletes that move there due to college or work from different parts of the country and then transfer to a club there and this will always be the case.[We all know the best athletes really come from Munster:D and then move to Dublin ha Tingle]

County Senior teams are the way to go in most counties.Maybe a grading system for clubs like they have in the UK could be introduced and clubs who reach a high enough long term standard can be excluded and stand alone as a superclub against the county teams.
Wouldnt it be great for the smaller clubs in Dublin to be able to come together to form a Dublin team competing against Clonliffe,Cru,Raheny etc.

As for coaching i really couldnt name one coach that i know of a high standard who would not travel to coach talented athletes.If the structure is in place the coaches necessary will fall in IMO.

As Tingle said already 99% of talented track&field athletes train on the track already so its really only a matter of coordinating the whole thing with coaches.

In Kerry we entered a Kerry senior mens and womens team in the national league last year.It was done so that the talented group of juveniles we had could see where they should be heading[competing at senior level].The benefit of it can be seen already with clubs who were always at loggerheads now working together,athletes training with athletes from other clubs and further iniatives beginning in relation to coaching,training and competitions.
The whole idea allows the athletes to compete with their clubs and county keeping practically everybody happy;athletes,coaches,parents,club officials and county officials!

thirtyfoot

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I don't like the concept of super clubs at juvenile level. To get large participation rates from a community, most training has to be done locally. If your best/elite juveniles have joined a superclub 20 miles away, it doesn't encourage the rest of the club athletes or coaches too much ... develop your athlete to a decent standard and then when they are u14 they're gone to a perceived better club and a perceived better coach and noone for other local athletes to look up to anymore.

I know that a higher standard of coaching is required and if its not available in your own club, getting it somewhere else is very desirable and necessary. But maybe the concept of county clubs would work as the super club and the county have their 'super squad' who meet on a regular basis where the facilities exist.

Also, we cannot just magic up the coaches in the location of the superclub. A good coach living in the a***hole of nowhere might not want to travel twice a week to the chosen superclub. Many juvenile coaches are already extremely overburdened just doing 6 or 7 hours a week coaching in their own club and travelling only 5 mins up the road to training, and probably balancing it with rearing their own kids at the same time. In my experience, most juvenile coaches start coaching in their local club because its local! And would prefer to spend an extra 2 hours coaching there rather than travelling an hour over and back to a superclub. We have to remember all of these coaches are volunteers. No money paid and in many (all?) cases, no expenses paid.

In my opinion, one of the reasons that hurling and football are so successful is that they are organised on a parochial basis and get the full support of their community because of this. We should learn from that. Would an elite West Waterford athlete get any pleasure or support from their community if representing Ferrybank? (Not picking on those 2 clubs - just that they've been mentioned in other posts already on this thread).

The county squad and county competition is the way to go for our elite juveniles, with progression to the same for seniors.

Yes, good points and shows some holes in the argument at juvenile level. I'd be thinking of this for more at senior/junior level. So same number of juvenile clubs and a much smaller number of senior clubs. Magic upping coaches at senior clubs would be done through licensing laws if you want. To be a super club you need a Dir of Athletics at Level 2 or higher (probably higher overtime). Work with changig the coaching structure. Have a bridging level between level 2 and 3 were coaches can really specialize earlier. I go on a course I don't want to know how to race walk or pole vault. A club would need a level 2.5? in each area - sprints, jumps etc. The idea is that you are naturally creating centres of excellence in clubs. Forcing the clubs to have proper coaching structures, putting the onus on them, the ambitious ones will create centres and the ambitious athletes will go here. They can lose their status if not adhered to. Pie in the sky I know but who knows.

Kiptanui

Tingle wrote: »

Yes, good points and shows some holes in the argument at juvenile level. I'd be thinking of this for more at senior/junior level. So same number of juvenile clubs and a much smaller number of senior clubs. Magic upping coaches at senior clubs would be done through licensing laws if you want. To be a super club you need a Dir of Athletics at Level 2 or higher (probably higher overtime). Work with changig the coaching structure. Have a bridging level between level 2 and 3 were coaches can really specialize earlier. I go on a course I don't want to know how to race walk or pole vault. A club would need a level 2.5? in each area - sprints, jumps etc. The idea is that you are naturally creating centres of excellence in clubs. Forcing the clubs to have proper coaching structures, putting the onus on them, the ambitious ones will create centres and the ambitious athletes will go here. They can lose their status if not adhered to. Pie in the sky I know but who knows.

The only reason this is pie in the sky is because it is unworkable. For some events there is a chronic shortage of coaching talent. Who would coach a pole vaulter in Roscommon or a race walker in Longford? Even with your proposed system, where would they go?

We are talking about level 3 courses and a new level being introduced but how many coaches are ready for this course? It is lovely to speak about merging pools of talant to train together but there are practical barriers. It is only workable at senior level and lets be realistic, most of our international class athletes base themselves elsewhere. (Mary Cullen is not home based by the way, that is a temporary arrangement!!)

The system you speak about is progressive in theory but it reality it is a poachers paradise. At junior level that would be regressive. I know plenty about the 'incentives' to change clubs but don't want to come on here swinging the hurley. I have no problem with athletes transfering to a more suitable club but a merry go round is not a desireable situation. If the move is initiated by the athlete then fair enough but poachers don't develop athletics, they attempt to lure the top layer and court success this way. Comparisons with the GAA are invalid as they have the numbers to implement systems and approaches that are unworkable in minority sports.

cickimc

Even if there isn't enough coaches for the ahtletes especially in technical events there still is a lot to gain from two racewalkers or pole vaulters training together once or twice a week not much clubs are blessed with a coach specializing in everything

If a super club has a few very technical coaches for sprints and field events and a few for runnning then they will progress. Rural counties like Mayo would be a lot stronger if they had a super club as most are leaving athletics coming into junior.

thirtyfoot

Kiptanui wrote: »

The only reason this is pie in the sky is because it is unworkable. For some events there is a chronic shortage of coaching talent. Who would coach a pole vaulter in Roscommon or a race walker in Longford? Even with your proposed system, where would they go?

.

To their nearest Super Club for a session once a week or twice a month. Currently there is nothing. At least this would mean if these people wanted a group or coach to train with, there would be somewhere to go. helpisontheway said if coaches are asked to travel, they will. Athletes are the same.

Kiptanui wrote: »

We are talking about level 3 courses and a new level being introduced but how many coaches are ready for this course? It is lovely to speak about merging pools of talant to train together but there are practical barriers. It is only workable at senior level and lets be realistic, most of our international class athletes base themselves elsewhere. (Mary Cullen is not home based by the way, that is a temporary arrangement!!)

.

Exactly. This is not a 1 year project. Its something to be worked with. Say within 3 years super club status will be launched. Clubs or county who wihs to avail must have their coaching expertise up to date by that time. Also, I'm not talking about elite international athletes, I'm talking about the 200-300 senior club athletes who take their sport seriously but spend much time faffing, training alone, trying a bit of this, bit of that, eventually just drifting away as they have no coach or no group to train with.

Kiptanui wrote: »

The system you speak about is progressive in theory but it reality it is a poachers paradise. At junior level that would be regressive. I know plenty about the 'incentives' to change clubs but don't want to come on here swinging the hurley. I have no problem with athletes transfering to a more suitable club but a merry go round is not a desireable situation. If the move is initiated by the athlete then fair enough but poachers don't develop athletics, they attempt to lure the top layer and court success this way. Comparisons with the GAA are invalid as they have the numbers to implement systems and approaches that are unworkable in minority sports.

Thing is, feeder clubs and super clubs will do much to rid the sport of poaching at underage as the connection will be there. Put rules in place, you can't move from a feeder to super club while a juvenile, I don't know, could work. There is very little poaching at senior and those that do will do at their own will. I'd be of the opinion (at senior and junior) that if poaching means the best athletes train together with the best coaches, then bring it on.

This whole poaching thing at senior is blown out of proportion and if a club are bitter over an athlete moving to a better setup then they have their priorities in the wrong place. I've left a smaller club to move to bigger club, got their blessing and as a result still have connections there and will always take an interest in it. Thats sport to me, not taking it personal or being bitter.

cickimc wrote: »

Even if there isn't enough coaches for the ahtletes especially in technical events there still is a lot to gain from two racewalkers or pole vaulters training together once or twice a week not much clubs are blessed with a coach specializing in everything

If a super club has a few very technical coaches for sprints and field events and a few for runnning then they will progress. Rural counties like Mayo would be a lot stronger if they had a super club as most are leaving athletics coming into junior.

Yes, very true. Even as a start if it means athletes will train together then thats a bonus. Interesting on the vaulters, in Dublin anyway they all train together by and large. Athletes grouping together and training is a minimum. How many club walkers do we have, not many. Same as hurdlers or high jumpers. Getting them to train together would help greatly.

We've had a great session this evening in the freezing cold, best of the winter yet. We had 8 athletes from 4 different clubs. All of similar standards (400m guys ranging from 48-51secs) pushing and helping each other, all bringing something to the party. The difference to training in a group like this is massive. It is the only way forward. Our current structures don't facilitate this and it usually happens by accident. There are other groups like this all over the country but not enough as it usually happens by accident. Drifting off topic here but the drop-off will happen many times when kids go to college and leave their club environment. Some network to let these kids know what training groups are available would be a great help.

All I'm trying to do is think of ideas on how to change a competition, club and coaching structure that just isn't working. I'm hearing some support for the idea or parts of it but also negativity. To those who believe this can't work, whats their thoughts on what can work or is change required at all? Maybe the changing the name of super club might help, might seem slighly offensive!! If that thought of super clubs and a few elite is the problem, thats not the goal. The goal is to get the best athletes and coaches together, clubs or county is the best vehicle for that or is there another. It won't erode the club ethos at grassroots.

Anyway, good debate!

Condo131

Tingle wrote: »

........ the arsehole of nowhere .....

Pray, how do YOU define 'the arsehole of nowhere' - might it be somewhere without one of your 'superclubs'?

Tingle wrote: »

How will we get kids aged 14 in the arsehole of nowhere being able to hurdle off both legs or develop a good leg shoot in the long jump or master the rotation in the SP

Isn't that what the county and regional coaching and development days do already?

Tingle wrote: »

Some places are staring to do this, Kerry County Board for example.

..and some other places have been doing it for some time

Tingle wrote: »

... when was the last time a decent club team came out of Cork in a cross perspective. Long time. Cross there must be dying, track isn't thanks to Leevale. For me, it validates the super club concept.

As I said previously, I don't want to turn this into a Cork v tingle issue. What about all the other counties? We have the appaling situation of several counties having only one or two small clubs. Superclubs aren't on the horizon for them - they wouldn't even be able to field a team in the leagues if their lives depended on it. Cross isn't dying in Cork, far from it, however it is a long time since Cork featured in XC nationally. There are several reasons for that, one of which is the annual haemmorage of talent to the US scholarship system [That's another can of worms - we can discuss that one another day on another thread] wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)

Tingle wrote: »

Much better to have a coach in a small club meeting with other better coaches in their master club once a week and learning on the job

That happens already in the county and regional coaching and development days

Tingle wrote: »

May I ask, as an example, what coverage of coaching expertise is in your own club?

One level 3 coach, two level 2, one level 1 and 8 foundation.

Tingle wrote: »

Put a proper feeder system in place and the skullduggery you speak of will disappear as there will be no need for it.

Now that's definitely being unrealistic - no further comment necessary!

Tingle wrote: »

We can speak all day about this. Parochial and club politics will probably mean it'll never happen.

Absolutely agreed, without reservation. However you didn't mention the entire parochial and club way that the AAI operates at throughout. Personally, I have drawn back primarily to Club involvement - I feel I can do more for athletics in general by progressing my own Club to the best of my ability. [In short, our club nearly went out of existence 9 years ago - down to about 15 active members - we're now at approx. 120 active and growing fast. It's only now that we're starting to reach 'critical mass'. We don't (yet) compete in the leagues (and I can't see it in the foreseeable future) but we have had some success at national level. We try. Development is a slow process. If we were now to become just a feeder club, I would definitely give up organisational athletics - and not because I want to hold on to power - been there in another code, got the tee-shirt, don't want to go back!]

In an ideal world what you propose might work. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Superclubs come and go in all sports. The same would happen in this case, but the demise would be slow, due to the feeder system. There are many athletic clubs in Ireland that would have, in the past, been classed as superclubs that are now just a shadow of their former selves.

You discount West Waterford as a superclub, yet they have one of the biggest organistaion and memberships going in this country. As I said it often takes a long lead time before efforts like that bear fruit. The thought of WW, an their like, just becoming a feeder club is mind numbing.

My main objections to the superclub feeder are two fold:
I've seen local 'superclubs' (relatively speaking) form before. They do well in the short term, but often lack focus and, once the key athletes move on/retire, you're left with a single small club, where before you had maybe 4, 5 or 6 clubs.
The second reason is that, during the amalgamation, many admin people and coaches are 'surplus' and just drift away.

wrt superclubs, I can see the same happening, but on a grander scale. It would also be a major disincentive to small and fledgling clubs.

thirtyfoot

Condo131 wrote: »

Pray, how do YOU define 'the arsehole of nowhere' - might it be somewhere without one of your 'superclubs'?


Isn't that what the county and regional coaching and development days do already?


..and some other places have been doing it for some time


As I said previously, I don't want to turn this into a Cork v tingle issue. What about all the other counties? We have the appaling situation of several counties having only one or two small clubs. Superclubs aren't on the horizon for them - they wouldn't even be able to field a team in the leagues if their lives depended on it. Cross isn't dying in Cork, far from it, however it is a long time since Cork featured in XC nationally. There are several reasons for that, one of which is the annual haemmorage of talent to the US scholarship system [That's another can of worms - we can discuss that one another day on another thread] wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)


That happens already in the county and regional coaching and development days



One level 3 coach, two level 2, one level 1 and 8 foundation.


Now that's definitely being unrealistic - no further comment necessary!


Absolutely agreed, without reservation. However you didn't mention the entire parochial and club way that the AAI operates at throughout. Personally, I have drawn back primarily to Club involvement - I feel I can do more for athletics in general by progressing my own Club to the best of my ability. [In short, our club nearly went out of existence 9 years ago - down to about 15 active members - we're now at approx. 120 active and growing fast. It's only now that we're starting to reach 'critical mass'. We don't (yet) compete in the leagues (and I can't see it in the foreseeable future) but we have had some success at national level. We try. Development is a slow process. If we were now to become just a feeder club, I would definitely give up organisational athletics - and not because I want to hold on to power - been there in another code, got the tee-shirt, don't want to go back!]

In an ideal world what you propose might work. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Superclubs come and go in all sports. The same would happen in this case, but the demise would be slow, due to the feeder system. There are many athletic clubs in Ireland that would have, in the past, been classed as superclubs that are now just a shadow of their former selves.

You discount West Waterford as a superclub, yet they have one of the biggest organistaion and memberships going in this country. As I said it often takes a long lead time before efforts like that bear fruit. The thought of WW, an their like, just becoming a feeder club is mind numbing.

My main objections to the superclub feeder are two fold:
I've seen local 'superclubs' (relatively speaking) form before. They do well in the short term, but often lack focus and, once the key athletes move on/retire, you're left with a single small club, where before you had maybe 4, 5 or 6 clubs.
The second reason is that, during the amalgamation, many admin people and coaches are 'surplus' and just drift away.

wrt superclubs, I can see the same happening, but on a grander scale. It would also be a major disincentive to small and fledgling clubs.

I think we can agree to disagree. What do you think can be done to improve the T&F situation (or do yopu think its ok)? Do you think we have structures to create world class athletes. The world class athletes we have don't think we do and those that are world class either did so through their own initiative or had good (super!) clubs when they were younger.

On the some topics you raised - arsehole of nowhere is somewhere without a track or proper facilities for T&F. Came from arsehole of nowhere myself, know all about it, trained for my first 10 years on a GAA pitch. Arsehole of nowhere is actually a nice place and toughens you up.

Regional squads - are good to certain degree and the RDOs are doing a great job and it can be a thankless task. Coaches don't come with the kids though. Estimate it to be maybe 5-10 club athletes for every club coach who attends. Kids aged 14 won't bring back what they learned to their club. If their coach did they might though. They don't seem to come along though, pity.

What about the Junior and Senior athletes though? What do they do? Where are their squad sessions? 15 year old attends regional squads, trains with other athletes in their club. They are good, hit 18 or 19, their mates leave and give up as they aren't as good. No junior or senior athletes in club to their standard. No coach to bring them to the next level as they are working with the younger kids and no good facilities. Where do you suggest this kid goes to train? This is the nub of my motication for trying to look at alternatives. This specific example. Give me an answer on where this kid who is 18 or 19 can go to progress their career and I might be able to understand where you are coming from.

US scholarships - Cork is not the only county who lose athletes to US. Its everywhere. Not an excuse for Cork not challenging at club cross in either women or men for years. I look at it in the cold light of day from the outside and its dead in Cork. The only place with a vibrant senior club cross scene is Dublin. I remember a day when the Cork county championships was the 2nd hardest cross race to win after National ( or so the Cork Examiner used to say). Sadly no more. Not a slag on Cork, just reality. Look at recent Senior Inter-Club results. DSD, Raheny, Rathfarnham, Clonliffe. Would be great if they were more competitive, as competition is key to performance. Just to clarify, I'm not anti-Cork. People who know me will know my connections;). JBM is one of my all-time sporting heroes.

WW - no slight on them is intended. They have been around a while though. I raced WW guys in the last century, they aren't a new club. Look forward to seeing WW athletes to the forefront of T&F in years to come based on the what you are saying. Will be good for Waterford T&F, Munster T&F and Irish T&F.

I suppose finally this

Condo131 wrote: »

wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)

is the most telling of all and the reason my glorious plan will never happen. Would you allow your athletes to compete at senior for Leevale in track comps if a Primary/Secondary UK style system was in place or is it an anti-Leevale thing? BTW, I think Leevale are great and a model for any aspiring club who wants to produce senior national class athletes and then if they have the ingredients, world class athletes.

Condo131

Tingle wrote: »

I think we can agree to disagree.

Agreed.......Maybe!! :D:D

Tingle wrote: »

What do you think can be done to improve the T&F situation (or do you think its ok)?

Of course it's OK. T&F is just one aspect of athletics, but it's the main Olympic area for athletics. The gob****es in this country (i.e. the majority (who really don't know sport)) seem to believe a) if we (as in Ireland) don't bring back at least several Olympic Golds, we've failed b) that Golds in the Europeans and worlds really don't count c) Indoors (as in World/Europeans) is even further down the pecking order d) That there should be a public enquiry if the T&F team fails to bring home at least one medal from the Olympics and finally e) If it's not an Olympic Gold, then the Ballygobackward team winning the County Junior Z final trumps all. So T&F is the Gold standard. ...but it's not for everyone.

Wrt improvement, unfortunately it's a slow process. You want to 'jump start' it. On paper that might work in the short term, but I don't think so in the medium to long term. We need more certified coaches - lots of them! It wasn't until recently that we started to run coaching courses again. As you indicated, it takes time for coaches to learn how to coach properly.

Tingle wrote: »

Do you think we have structures to create world class athletes.

We clearly don't. I also don't like the overall structure of the AAI. I think it stifles more than nurtures.

Tingle wrote: »

This specific example. Give me an answer on where this kid who is 18 or 19 can go to progress their career and I might be able to understand where you are coming from.

Sorry (and not intending to nit pick) but that's a general example. Most 18 to 19 year olds are probably going to college and a lot of colleges now have reasonably good systems in place. Even if not, they are going to have access to other clubs facilities & sessions. (For example, we have track members in my club - members of other clubs who pay a smaller sub and can join in our sessions and squads)

Tingle wrote: »

US scholarships

Of course its not just a Cork problem, but I wonder if other regions suffer to the same extent. Not insignificant numbers go to the U.S. each year. The vast majority do not return. I don't begrude any of them, but I do begrudge the system that cultivates them here for export. It does little to benefit the sport in Ireland. Most of them are just 'fodder' for the U.S. system. A couple of years ago, I overheard a conversation between a leading runner and one of the coaches in his club:
Coach "Welcome back Mike (not his real name).....I suppose you'll be doing all the road races?"
Mike: " No, I need a rest. We've been doing two races a week all year, one home and one away. The away one could be 1500 miles away."

Well Mike is one of those who did return. Unfortunately he hasn't been performing to the level he had been prior to going abroad. I know it's just one example, but I reckon it's not unusual. I reckon the U.S. scholarship system doesn't, with few exceptions, serve Irish athletics well.

Tingle wrote: »

....is the most telling of all and the reason my glorious plan will never happen. Would you allow your athletes to compete at senior for Leevale in track comps if a Primary/Secondary UK style system was in place

We've never stopped anyone from doing what they wanted to do and we're not going to start now (even if we don't exactly like it)..... and, as far as I can remember (but open to correction), we have allowed members to guest for Leevale.

Tingle wrote: »

or is it an anti-Leevale thing?

What?? Never!!:rolleyes:

thirtyfoot

Condo131 wrote: »

Sorry (and not intending to nit pick) but that's a general example. Most 18 to 19 year olds are probably going to college and a lot of colleges now have reasonably good systems in place.

Well, its a very specific example and for those with an interest in improving both the standard of the top athletes and the depth of the events at senior T&F, its where we are losing so many athletes. The fall off from Jun to U23 is huge.

Reasonably good systems in colleges. Is that good enough? Are we not giving the younger athletes then only a reasonably good chance of fulfilling their potential or having a reasonable good chance of winning medals. Is that not the problem with everything here though. Half-arsed, sure twill do, afraid to try something different. If it fails, how bad at least we tried.

DCU is the top college in the country yet their system can be haphazard. They give the best athletes good support financially etc and it works well for some but if the athlete doesn't have their own coach they can easily drift. And this is the top college. Whats it like in Carlow. Or Maynooth or Galway. Don't tell me the college/uni system is meeting the needs of the young athletes. Thats crazy talk that is.

You believe that the AAI structures aren't great. I am saying the same and the way to do it is give the responsibility to the good clubs to create the centres of excellence. The success stories are where the clubs, county boards and athletes take ownership. Its going to happen and happens anyway. I've got an insight into how some people would feel about giving more responsibility to the more ambitious clubs so a formal structure may never work because of this as the goals of many are not the same goals as I would want to see from athletics. It may just come back to survivial of the fittest and the big clubs keep driving on and being ambitious and putting systems in place to attract(poach) the top athletes. We'll still have posters like dangermouse coming on with concerns about athletes moving to clubs with apparent better coaches and systems. With a feeder/super club system, at least it would be transparent.

I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......off to check the 2009 rankings to see who we can poach for next year.

Condo131

Believe it or not, I think we're singing from the same hymnn book...definitely not the same hymnn though.

Tingle wrote: »

It may just come back to survivial of the fittest and the big clubs keep driving on and being ambitious and putting systems in place to attract(poach) the top athletes.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

Poaching is a different matter. If one club attracts an athlete from another, by purely virtue of better suiting his/her needs, then I have no problem with that and I don't call that poaching.

What I call poaching is where one club actively courts an athlete who is active with another club, sometimes (indeed often) offering financial inducements (however small).

My club, even though growing at a very fast rate, has NEVER knowingly approached an athlete who is still active with another club. We've even suggested to prospective members that another particular club may suit them, for reasons of their particular discipline, or geographic/travel reasons.

In my experience, some superclubs don't 'give a fiddlers' about anyone who is less than top class. (If we ever meet, I'll tell you some of the stories...but not here). I would absolutely hate a feeder system in that situation, where athletes who do not make the superclubs standards are, at best, tolerated, and treated as second-class citizens within the club - expected to pay the sub and quietly drift away. That certainly does little for the sport in general. I hope that, in general, superclubs are nothing like that, however considering the poaching stories, I think there's a fair bit of it around.

Tingle wrote: »

I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......

Me too.

Kiptanui

Tingle wrote: »

I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......off to check the 2009 rankings to see who we can poach for next year.

That wouldn't be your style - you would rather check the flight schedule from the rift valley or ukraine or even check who's new in third level colleges in Dublin. Thats a more tried and tested pasture for you to recruit from!!!!

DangerMouse27

Didnt UkAthletics try something different this year and it went down really well..the Super 8?
One athlete in each event per county? but with only eight lanes per track,the rorund one and round two could be a battling ground to formulate the top 8 counties and have them slog it out in the final.Only stipulation is what county you were born in...maybe?

It might overly highlight the need for certain clubs to start expanding their coaching when they have no representatives at a final day.
Yes i hear you say that bigger catchment areas might win..ie Dublin,Cork but only one athlete in Cork can compete in the 100m or 200m.The Super 8 selectors in each county selecting the top athletes based on merit and times.