Dark side of the Marathon

tunguska · 02-12-2009 08:17PM

On an unrelated matter.........."National Lampoons Christmas vacation" is on TG4 tonight at 12:50 in the am. Late, I know, but you gotta love the christmas vacation.

--amadeus-- · 03-12-2009 03:01PM

tunguska wrote: »

Saturday 28th november:

24.11miles

average pace = 7.03mins/mile

Not the 26 I said I was gonna do but decent enough anyway. Was rightly F u c k e d after 24 and the miles were turning to crap

How far off the pace had you dropped by the end?

The reason I'm asking (and I'm risking reopening Gelgate :eek:) is that I did a couple of marathon training cycles without gels, for very similar reasons to yourself. And I found the exact same thing happening - albeit at a slower pace and earlier point. I found that between 16 - 18 miles nto an LSR I'd start to lose time, drifting out to 60 secs or more over target pace.

In the end I went back to training with gels on the basis I wasn't getting any benefit from running so slowly and my recovery was so compromised. It'll be interesting to see how your LSRs develop - if you can train past it and teach your body to maintain pace then I assume others could too.

(edit, I'm not taking a pop at you not using gels or asking you to comment on that, just interested in you sounding like you might have had similar symptoms to me and I'm looking for common cause, please ignore if you don't want to discuss!!)

tunguska · 03-12-2009 09:09PM

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How far off the pace had you dropped by the end?

The reason I'm asking (and I'm risking reopening Gelgate :eek:) is that I did a couple of marathon training cycles without gels, for very similar reasons to yourself. And I found the exact same thing happening - albeit at a slower pace and earlier point. I found that between 16 - 18 miles nto an LSR I'd start to lose time, drifting out to 60 secs or more over target pace.

In the end I went back to training with gels on the basis I wasn't getting any benefit from running so slowly and my recovery was so compromised. It'll be interesting to see how your LSRs develop - if you can train past it and teach your body to maintain pace then I assume others could too.

(edit, I'm not taking a pop at you not using gels or asking you to comment on that, just interested in you sounding like you might have had similar symptoms to me and I'm looking for common cause, please ignore if you don't want to discuss!!)

I actually wasnt that far off the pace in the end because I had said that I wanted to do the run at 7mins/mile. So I was only 3 seconds out. But I did slow down because I was knocking out the miles at 6:40-6:50 before that. But Its ok because that happened to me before when I was training for the marathon. What happens is over the course of a few weeks that drop in the pace near the end stops happening and Im able to complete the entire run at the exact same pace. For me it has nothing to do with gels or anything like that, there was nothing I couldve eaten or drank that wouldve done anything for the drop in pace on that run. Like I said though that drop in pace will sort itself out pretty quickly, Id go as far to say that my long run this weekend will be a lot more solid.

Magnet · 04-12-2009 11:07AM

This is a Fantastic log and as my own weekly mileage was around 60 to 80+ Im interested to see how to get more miles in by double training days, but 4 doubles?!?!
How much sleep do you get?
Do you have a flexible job, office job 9-5 or a job sitting down - I ask because I work 50+ hrs and mostly standing up so some days I can hardly walk after never mind run...?!?!

tunguska · 04-12-2009 11:53AM

Magnet wrote: »

This is a Fantastic log and as my own weekly mileage was around 60 to 80+ Im interested to see how to get more miles in by double training days, but 4 doubles?!?!
How much sleep do you get?
Do you have a flexible job, office job 9-5 or a job sitting down - I ask because I work 50+ hrs and mostly standing up so some days I can hardly walk after never mind run...?!?!

Hi Magnet,
I wouldnt work even close to 50hrs/week. Fair play to you, working that volume of hrs and still manage 80miles/week, thats top class committment. The most Id work in any week would be
34hrs and its a mixture of being on my feet and sitting. I manage a fair amount of sleep every night, minimum 9hrs, and after long run days I'll take 12hrs sleep.
The doubles can be difficult sometimes, you come home from work and all you wanna do is sit down and relax. So it can be a real test of my committment to get on the running gear after work. But what I do to make it easy on myself is I'll say that I'll just go for a nice jog after work. I love to run and Id do it anyway even if I wasnt competing so a jog is a treat not a chore. Plus the roads are empty at that hour anyway so theres nobody around which makes it a nice run.

tunguska · 04-12-2009 12:02PM

Thursday 3rd December:

Bit of an epic session..........

(1) Had to go out to leinster clinic in Maynooth and I havent had a long one on the bike in a while so I cycled out. 17 miles out, 17 miles back, so 34 miles in total. Really nice cycle.

(2) Then it was back for training with the club on the track:

10 x 400m @ 73secs/400 with 47secs recovery between(2minute cycles).

Then we left the track and did 11 miles @ 6:50/mile

stipes212 · 04-12-2009 01:47PM

Then WE left the track and did 11 miles @ 6:50/mile[/QUOTE]

Unbelievable session, is this done by the whole group, or just yourself?
Fantastic log bw.

tunguska · 04-12-2009 02:19PM

stipes212 wrote: »

Then WE left the track and did 11 miles @ 6:50/mile

Unbelievable session, is this done by the whole group, or just yourself?
Fantastic log bw.[/quote]

Sorry Stipes I shouldve been more specific, I did 11miles, the others did a 3 mile loop and called it quits. But in fairness to them theyre not in training for a marathon at the moment. Normally my regular training partner would do what I do but he's nursing a bit of an achilles problem right now so it was just me doing the full 11 miles after.

tunguska · 05-12-2009 01:16PM

Saturday 5th December:

Donore Harriers 5k(I cant refer to it as the "Jingle bells 5k".........ok I just did, but its a ridiculous name for a race with such a good quality field).

Just back form this race. Did 17:02 or thereabouts(my timing, not offical timing).
First race since marathon so not bad. Having said that it shouldve been a sub 17min performance. Need to take the speed work up a notch in training.
Gonna run the bhaa 5k tomorrow just to see if I can do better.

christeb · 05-12-2009 01:36PM

tunguska wrote: »

Saturday 5th December:

Donore Harriers 5k(I cant refer to it as the "Jingle bells 5k".........ok I just did, but its a ridiculous name for a race with such a good quality field).

Just back form this race. Did 17:02 or thereabouts(my timing, not offical timing).
First race since marathon so not bad. Having said that it shouldve been a sub 17min performance. Need to take the speed work up a notch in training.
Gonna run the bhaa 5k tomorrow just to see if I can do better.

"I didn't run a sub-17 today so I'll do it tomorrow" - brilliant! What do you feel went wrong (or not quite right) today? Do you think your legs will be in better shape tomorrow?

tunguska · 05-12-2009 01:44PM

christeb wrote: »

"I didn't run a sub-17 today so I'll do it tomorrow" - brilliant! What do you feel went wrong (or not quite right) today? Do you think your legs will be in better shape tomorrow?

I just think it was lack of race sharpness to be honest. You know when you havent played ball in a while and then you go back and youre making stupid mistakes, really silly little things. Youre not as sharp or aware either, you get skinned all over the shop. But within the space of a few games you have your sharpness back.
Thats what I think it was. Even all this week I didnt feel in race mode mentally. But now after that today, I am in race mode and so tomorrow Im pretty sure I'll go under 17.

village runner · 05-12-2009 04:39PM

tunguska wrote: »

Saturday 5th December:

Donore Harriers 5k(I cant refer to it as the "Jingle bells 5k".........ok I just did, but its a ridiculous name for a race with such a good quality field).

Just back form this race. Did 17:02 or thereabouts(my timing, not offical timing).
First race since marathon so not bad. Having said that it shouldve been a sub 17min performance. Need to take the speed work up a notch in training.
''##'/]'Gonna run the bhaa 5k tomorrow just to see if I can do better.

Maybe you have trained too hard with a few days off for a race maybe a better option. For a lad that was aiming for 2.34 in the marathon i would have thought a sub 16 would have been your aim and a formality.

shels4ever · 05-12-2009 05:12PM

tunguska wrote: »

I just think it was lack of race sharpness to be honest. You know when you havent played ball in a while and then you go back and youre making stupid mistakes, really silly little things. Youre not as sharp or aware either, you get skinned all over the shop. But within the space of a few games you have your sharpness back.
Thats what I think it was. Even all this week I didnt feel in race mode mentally. But now after that today, I am in race mode and so tomorrow Im pretty sure I'll go under 17.

How fast do you think youd go if you tapered down the training for one of these races? I know your in marathon training atm , with your track session the other day i'd say you'd be in the low 16's whats your 5k pb?

DERICKOO · 06-12-2009 04:16AM

take it now, live it do it ,fear it, for me the time is gone did 7 marathons and a hell of a lot more .
now i struggle to walk ,somtimes to live, iv have done and seen what most men dream of,
thankfully.

misty floyd · 06-12-2009 07:59AM

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you won't :cool: Let's call it a hunch based on physical science. Hope you prove me wrong !

I'm straight telling on you

I'll let him know your words before the race this morning. Might spur him on a bit.

tunguska · 06-12-2009 07:01PM

Didnt get to run bhaa 5k today. Was definitely up for it but due to circumstamnces beyond my control I was up the entire night and didnt get to bed until 7:30 this morning. No, not out drinking or acting the maggott, something a little less exciting Im afraid.
Anyway, lads, relax. I stated before the race that my speed still wasnt up to pre-marathon standards and I was only using yesterdays race as a speed session. And thats why I dont taper for these races, theyre training sessions. Trust me, when Im racing properly I prepare in the right way. So let me say in advance that the aware 10k next saturday is another training session for me. There'll be no taper, its speed work and thats all it is.

tunguska · 07-12-2009 06:23PM

Lads Im knocking the log on the head. Im finding that Im explaining myself way too much which is something I said I wasnt going to do. Its becoming an energy drain and thats something I can do without.
Besides, I read this book once by Richard Templar called "The rules of life" and rule number one is: Keep it under your hat.

"There may well be times when you want to talk to other people about what youre doing because, quite naturally, you want to share it with somebody. Well you cant and you don’t. Let them find out for themselves with no clues from you. You may think this unfair but it is actually fairer than you believe. If you tell them, they’ll shy away. And quite rightly so - we all hate being preached at. It’s a bit like when you give up smoking and suddenly find this new healthier way of living and you simply have to convert all you old smoking friends. Trouble is, they aren’t ready to quit yet and you find the label you as smug or a prig or even worse, an ex-smoker. And how we all hate those.
So the first rule is, quite simply, don’t preach, propagate, try to convert, shout from rooftops or even mention this".

The rules of life, Templar, richard, 2006

So Im gonna go with rule number 1 and keep it under my hat.

Just want to say thanks to everybody who followed the log and im sorry if you're not happy with my decision to knock it on the head.

Anyway, thats enough waffle. Over to you Herr Mozart..............

Krusty_Clown · 07-12-2009 06:53PM

That's a shame. I was enjoying reading about your Pink Floyd-flavoured path to a faster marathon. Best of luck with your goals anyway.

Sosa · 07-12-2009 07:07PM

I echo what Krusty said above.
You have over 3000 views in a very short space of time,people are interested in your training.
You are a level above whats on here at present and people that want to improve are looking at you for some tips,thats all.
I understand where your coming from,i would not like constant questions thrown at me.
Thats probably why runners at your level dont keep logs so public.
Good luck with your training.

--amadeus-- · 07-12-2009 08:00PM

Really not happy about closing this as it was one of the most challenging threads on here. It certainly made me reappraise my own training.

But thanks for what you did share and please feel free to call into all of our respective logs and leave a few pearls of wisdom behind

Dark side of the Marathon

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