Dark side of the Marathon

tunguska

Im gonna keep a training log on-line because Im crap at keeping a written one. For my own reference really so that I can see what I've done but hopefully it'll be of some help to others aswell.
Running Rotterdamn in April and I'll be at least aiming to do better than Dublin this year, which means sub 2:45. But using rotterdamn as training and for marathon race experience. Dublin or New york will be my main marathon of next year and I'll use what I get in rotterdamn to predict what I'll shoot for then.

Week starting Sunday 8th November:
(Saturday is my rest day so Sunday is the first training day of a training week for me)
Sunday 8th November

21 miles @ 6:50/mile.
Total time = 2hrs 23 mins.

First 20 miler since the marathon. Felt great for the first 8 miles or so then started to struggled a bit from miles 8 - 15. But then felt strong again from 15 - 21. Very strange. But it was good to get that done even just for the psychomological benefits of breaking 20 miles again. Gonna keep a long run over 20 miles every week throughout the year this time round. Made the mistake of leaving it until August this year before doing any long runs for Dublin Marathon so hopefully this approach will do the job.

Monday 9th November

10.5 miles @ 7 mins/mile

Had to have a late run, busy throughout the day so Didnt get around to training until 10:30pm. Great though, love the late runs as theirs nobody around, the streets are empty and so Had the place to myself.

Tuesday 10th November

(1) Interval session on treadmill(am)

- Start off at 10.5 km/hr with 6% incline.
- Increase incline to 10% after 5 mins(10% incline remains for entire session)
- Increase speed to 12.0km/hr and hold for 2mins
- Increase speed to 13.0km/hr and hold for 2mins
- Increase speed to 13.5km/hr and hold for 2mins
- walk for 2mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 13.0km/hr and hold for 2 mins
- walk for 1 min at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2 mins
- walk for 2 mins at 4 km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 1 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 13.0 and hold for 2mins
- walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- time at this stage was approx. 50 mins so did 10.5km/hr for 10 mins to make the hour.

Distance = 6 miles

(2) 10.5 miles @ 6:55/mile(pm)

Total for the day 16.5 miles

Wednesday 11th November:

10.5 miles @7mins/mile

Another late one due to business druing the day.

Thursday 12th November:

Core, upper back and leg weight training(am)

(1)Run club training
- 2.75 mile warm up
- Track work: 10 x 400m @ 73seconds/400m, with 1 min rest between.
- 2.75 mile cooldown

First speed session with club since marathon and it was brutal. I know 10 x 400 doesnt sound like much but we were all in a jock after that session. Great stuff though and good to get that first one out of the way.

(2)Game of 5-a-side:
Was gonna do a 5 miler recovery later but got the call for a game of astro instead. Great game but savage stuff, the lads take no prisoners, got hopped out of it in a tackle and did my knee.

Friday 13th November:

Had planned to do 16 miles after work but knee was in a bad way. Weather was pretty crap also. Actually weather was biblical. So decided to leave run until saturday. Gonna get knee checked to see if cruciate has been done. Hopefully not. Damn you 5-a-side football........

village runner

Football and running dont mix.
Why not have a go at Rotterdam when it is an easier marathon than Dublin and New York ??? Your in great shape now.

Will be watching your log with interest.

What was your thinking behind the speed session in the gym ?
Sounds like a serious hill session.

tunguska

village runner wrote: »

Football and running dont mix.
Why not have a go at Rotterdam when it is an easier marathon than Dublin and New York ??? Your in great shape now.

Will be watching your log with interest.

What was your thinking behind the speed session in the gym ?
Sounds like a serious hill session.

It kills me to admit it but I think youre right about the football. I love playing ball, I mean I was a footballer first and foremost long before the running came along, so its hard to let go. But I need to be smart so I may have to knock the football on the head.

As for rotterdamn.........it may be a quicker course than Dublin or new york but Id have to go with the harder courses for claiming PBs. I mean if I went 2:35 in rotterdamn and 2:40 in Dublin, Id have to declare the 2:40 as my PB.

I find the interval treadmill session just increases my overall fitness. It makes running longer at higher speeds is easier. Also it has resulted in big jumps in my Vo2max.

Just got knee checked. Not ACL thank god, but its collateral ligamnet damage. Will be ok though.

tunguska

Saturday 14th November

22.5 miles @ 6:55/mile
Total time = 2 hrs 35mins

Felt ok, but still not running as fast as I was before the marathon. Next long run take it up to 24.5miles

Sunday 15th November:

12.5 miles @ 7mins/mile

Took it handy. After yesterday, 12 miles felt like a warm up.

Monday 16th November:

(1) 10.5 miles @ 7mins/mile (am)

Felt very sluggish and heavy. Had planned a speed session but as soon as I got up this morning I knew it wasnt on. Will do speed work tomorrow no matter what.

(2) 10.5 miles planned for tonight (pm)

MCOS

so tomorrow's session will be your 12th straight session (friday being an enforced rest only because you did your knee in) including a heavy tread sess, a speed sess and 2*22+ milers..... when is the recovery day/easy run coming up??

From what I understand PMP is around 6 flat give or take a couple of secs, so bread and butter runs are 3-4*75-90min PMP+60sec per week?

Just curious as this is significantly different to all the other Marathoner logs here so I'm just asking for thier benefit and my curiosity

TheRoadRunner

Hey tunguska

Interesting log. You are putting some serious miles in. How are you finding the 20 mile runs at the weekend. Personally I find it hard to get 4-5 20 mile runs in during a training cycle for a marathon, this is due to tiredness/injury and time on my behalf. What sort of mileage did you do for Dublin and what time did you end up with if you don't mind me asking.

Cheers

--amadeus--

I was hoping you'd do a log as your approach does seem a lot more hard core. Can't argue with the results though.

Are you following a specific paln?

tunguska

Sorry lads I couldnt figure out how to work the multi-quote thing so my apologies if I forget to answer some of your questions......

Roadrunner, at the moment im finding the 20 mile runs just ok. Not great but not bad either. I think theres still a bit of a psychological hangover lingering post marathon. I mean before the marathon I was knocking out 24 and 26 mile runs no problem. I think that adrenaline had a lot to do with that and the fact that the marathon was on the immediate horizon. So I think the reason why im dragging my heels a little with the long runs is down to the fact that my next marathon isnt until april. So like I said I think theres a little psychological stuff going on. But having said that things are going well and any lingering hangover will disapate as soon as Ive had my first race since the marathon(Donore Harriers 5k dec5th).
In relation to the mileage I did for Dublin..........for most of the year I ran 30 - 35 miles per week which wasnt nearly enough. The reason for the low mileage was that I spent a good portion of the year focusing on Tri-athlon training and since my swimming was dodgy at best, I needed to dedicate a lot of training hours to working on stroke technique. By August I decided to just focus on the marathon alone and so I upped the mileage gradually to 70miles/week at first and then ultimatley to 110miles/week. I did 2:45 in the marathon in the end. But I was trying to do too many things throughout the year at once and so this year Im forgetting about the triathlons and just focusing on the running, see what I can achieve.

Amadeus Im using a combination of P&D elite plan("marathon training on more than 85miles/week) and Jack Daniels marathon plan. But im also using JDs 5k and 10k plans to get the speed up. Im going to keep the high volume most of the year round and work on my speed at the same time. Its not a plan directly from a book, its based on P&D and JD but ive added a few of my own angles, such as doing 26+mile long runs. Its experimental for sure but at the same time Im going by my own intuition, doing what I think is right for me. I realise not everybody will agree or understand my methods but like you said, as long as the results are there they cant be argued with.

christeb

tunguska wrote: »

As for rotterdamn.........it may be a quicker course than Dublin or new york but Id have to go with the harder courses for claiming PBs. I mean if I went 2:35 in rotterdamn and 2:40 in Dublin, Id have to declare the 2:40 as my PB.

Agree with you on the football, played astro in that biblical rain on Friday night and came out with a dead leg (and a subsequent cold). Re: the above, are you serious??!!! In years to come looking back on your marathoning, if you ran the above you would tell people your best was 2.40? Haile wouldn't take the same approach, I don't think you should either. Maybe the key is to peak (which sounds like it'll be autumn for you) for a faster marathon, like Berlin.

Glad you started the log though, I'll follow with interest

aero2k

Hi tunguska,

I'll be following this log with interest. I like the idea of the long runs too, though it'll take me a few weeks to work my way back up in distance. I'm still a bit sluggish after DCM.
How did you find the 110 mile weeks from an injury point of view, and what kind of taper did you do for DCM?

Best of luck with Rotterdam.

misty floyd

Good stuff Tunguska. I will be following this log for sure and glad you have started it. Love the name 'Dark side of the marathon'

Best of luck man.

tunguska

misty floyd wrote: »

Good stuff Tunguska. I will be following this log for sure and glad you have started it. Love the name 'Dark side of the marathon'

Best of luck man.

Cheers dude, its all about the Pink Floyd as you well know.

Aero, the only problem that resulted from the 110 mile weeks was a case of plantar faciitis with my left foot. I had it checked out and the biomechanics guy said that the problem was always going to happen. The fact that I had increased the mileage shortened the time at which the plantar faciitis was going to occur in. It was a result of dodgy biomechanics but thats well under control but also Im finding that the more time goes by the more my body is adapting to the high mileage.
So what im saying is when you crank up the miles to 70 and above theres a chance youre gonna get some niggles, theres gonna be some pain, but its manageable pain. If or when this happens(it may not happen to everybody)dont quit, dont take the mileage back down and say that youre just not meant to run high miles or something like that. Give your body time to adapt. I know too many people who back off at the slighest niggle, they wrap themselves in cotton wool way too much. And thats not necessary as the body is a lot stronger than people think it is. What I found though was that I had to do a lot more stretching with the high mileage, at least at the start anyway. And also ice baths.Theyre miraculous. Not pleasent but very effective.
My taper for the marathon wasnt great, it was a bit all over the shop due to getting a heavy cold and the plantar faciitis. I took the miles from 110 to 80 then from 80 to 15! So like I said it was all over the gaff. But you learn from these things and I know exactly how Im gonna taper for the next marathon.

Sosa

Good stuff Tunguska...i will also be following this log,look forward to reading it...best of luck !

kennyb3

some brilliant reading. love your different approach and mindset

--amadeus--

Do you think everyone is capable of 70+mpw or do you think it's time on your feet that's teh limiter? As in you do 7 min miles easily so a 10 miler for you is over in 70mins, whereas a lot of people take 90 mins to do the same distance. For slower runners do you think they should be aiming for equivalent time or if they were doing teh high mileage thier times would drop?

I'm buying into the high mileage, I really think that's the way to go but I couldn't cope with teh intensity you run at - you must have titanium joints!

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Do you think everyone is capable of 70+mpw or do you think it's time on your feet that's teh limiter? As in you do 7 min miles easily so a 10 miler for you is over in 70mins, whereas a lot of people take 90 mins to do the same distance. For slower runners do you think they should be aiming for equivalent time or if they were doing teh high mileage thier times would drop?

I'm buying into the high mileage, I really think that's the way to go but I couldn't cope with teh intensity you run at - you must have titanium joints!

Amadeus, I do think everybody is capable of running 70miles/week. I know some guys who ran back in the day(70s, 80s and early 90s)and they were knocking out 100miles per week minimum throughout most of the year. And then taking it up to 130 - 150miles/week at a peak beore tapering for a race. And if you look at the marathon times from the dublin marathon in the 80s, the irish runners were doing 2:13s and 2:15s regularly. The guy I run with ran the Dublin marathon in 1981, he was only 19 and pretty much just walked in off the street and ran it in 2:42, which shows you how good he is naturally. But He finished in 160 something place and everybody ahead of him was Irish. If he did 2:42 now he'd be in the top 60 over all and top 40 irish. And he was telling me that back in the day any guy who ran the 10miles in 50 minutes would be considered to be an average runner. Frank duffy was won this year in 51mins. So standards with distance running in this country have definitely dropped.
So I definitely think most people are physically well capable of doing 70miles/week. I think the only limiting factors there would be lifestyle, whether people would prioritise other things over their training. So I think it comes down to a matter of choice.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

For slower runners do you think they should be aiming for equivalent time or if they were doing teh high mileage thier times would drop?

Im not really clear about what youre asking here Amadeus, could you maybe rephrase if possible? Thanks

As for your joints not being able to take the intenisty........I think you'd be ok. I mean Only you can know that of course but judging by your marathon times I think you'd be well capable. The increased intensity over the distance does put more pressure on your joints, ligaments, muscles, Central nervous system. thats for definite. But its all managable. You just have to do a lot more stretching and look after yourself a bit more in terms of nutrition and resistance training to strengthen muscles against injury. As I said before, there will be niggles, but its all managable.

--amadeus--

Cheers, & apologies for hijacking your log with 101 questions

What I was trying to ask is if you think your approach fits for everyone? As in you're now aiming for 1:45 and your approach works for you. You recommend it for me as someone 15 mins slower. But would you recommend it for a 3:15 runner? Or a 3:30 or slower runner?

As they would be running slower this would mean a lot more time on thier feet, which would be more stressful. Should slower runners than you try and match your mileage or match the amount of time you are running, with lower mileage adjusted for speed (ie if you run a 10 miler on Monday in 70 mins should they run for 70mins at the same intensity, irrespective of distance and get the same benefit?)

Probably not a question you can answer - just trying to get my head around your approach and how it could be adapted to suit others!

tunguska

(2) Monday 16th November (pm)

10.5miles @ 7mins/mile

Tuesday 18th November:

Had to miss training altogether due to unforseen factors. Not like me to miss training but its ok because things are only getting goig again after the marathon and also I can train saturday to make up for it.

Wednesday 19th November:

(1) Interval session on treadmill(am)

- Start off at 10.5 km/hr with 6% incline.
- Increase incline to 10% after 5 mins(10% incline remains for entire session)
- Increase speed to 12.0km/hr and hold for 2mins
- Increase speed to 13.0km/hr and hold for 2mins
- Increase speed to 13.5km/hr and hold for 2mins
- walk for 2mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 13.0km/hr and hold for 2 mins
- walk for 1 min at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2 mins
- walk for 2 mins at 4 km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 12.0 and hold for 2 mins
- Increase speed to 13.5 and hold for 2mins
- Walk for 1 mins at 4km/hr
- Increase speed to 13.0 and hold for 2mins
- walk for 2 mins at 4km/hr
- time at this stage was approx. 50 mins so did 10.5km/hr for 10 mins to make the hour.

Distance = 6 miles

Pretty much the same as last time. Found it easier so next time take it up a notch.

(2) 10.5miles(pm)

Plan for tonight after the match is to head out for 10 miles fairly easy.

Tomorrow will be back on the track for more speed work with the lads which I always view with a healthy combination of excitment and fear.

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Cheers, & apologies for hijacking your log with 101 questions

What I was trying to ask is if you think your approach fits for everyone? As in you're now aiming for 1:45 and your approach works for you. You recommend it for me as someone 15 mins slower. But would you recommend it for a 3:15 runner? Or a 3:30 or slower runner?

As they would be running slower this would mean a lot more time on thier feet, which would be more stressful. Should slower runners than you try and match your mileage or match the amount of time you are running, with lower mileage adjusted for speed (ie if you run a 10 miler on Monday in 70 mins should they run for 70mins at the same intensity, irrespective of distance and get the same benefit?)

Probably not a question you can answer - just trying to get my head around your approach and how it could be adapted to suit others!

Ah I understand now. Yes time on the feet is definitely a factor in the amount of stress the joints are subjected to. I would still advise a slower runner to do 70miles/week though, I think most people could handle that regardless of how long it took them.
But I think speed is most defintely something that can be improved. Hard work, sure but certainly speed can be worked on. So thats why I think speed sessions are critical. Volume is obviously critical in marathon training aswell, I mean I ran my first marathon having just done speed and interval work, no long runs and my weekly mileage was crap. I had a decent enough result but using just speed and interval work there was only so far I'd go. So the long runs, as you well know are essential. But by combining both speed and the long stuff I think will give you a great marathon. The speed is like a catalyst for the longer stuff. Ive found that after a hard speed session I can go out the next day and do a long run at a fairly decent pace with no problem at all. If you break it down: to run a 2:06 or thereabouts, the top guys have to string 8 back to back 15min 5km. To do this they must first and foremost be able to run one 5km in 15 minutes. And to break it down even further, they have to be able to run 1km in 3mins. So speed really is the first port of call with volume built around that foundation.
And thats what Im aiming for this year: To get a good balance between speed and volume. But I think this approach would be suitable for most folks, it is pretty simple at its core, speed and volume work.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

Assuming you have 19 weeks to go to Rotterdam how many runs of 20 miles or more do oyu plan to do. I spoke to a person really in the know big time and he told me to do one nearly every week(3 a month with a race the other week) What are your views on this ???


. My plan is 70 miles a week building from 50 at the moment over 3 weeks.
Your log is one of the best to date. Its made alot of lads wake up and look at their own training. I had planned to up to 70 on good advice but your log reiterated it.
Keep it up.
I want to see that pb in Rotterdam and then another one in Dublin.

tunguska

village runner wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Assuming you have 19 weeks to go to Rotterdam how many runs of 20 miles or more do oyu plan to do. I spoke to a person really in the know big time and he told me to do one nearly every week(3 a month with a race the other week) What are your views on this ???


. My plan is 70 miles a week building from 50 at the moment over 3 weeks.
Your log is one of the best to date. Its made alot of lads wake up and look at their own training. I had planned to up to 70 on good advice but your log reiterated it.
Keep it up.
I want to see that pb in Rotterdam and then another one in Dublin.

Hi VR,
I'll be doing one long run every week. Last week was 22.5miles so this week(sunday 22nd)it'll be 24.5miles. And next week it'll be 26.5 miles. Aftre that the plan is to hold it for 26.5 for 3 weeks and then increase to 28miles, hold for 4 weeks, and then take it up to 30miles, hold that for a few weeks see what happens. That'll bring me up to febuary. Dont think I'll go any higher than 30miles though, after that It'll be a case of doing the 30miles as quickly as possible(trying to do that in under 3hrs would be a big goal).
Personally I think that guy you spoke to is right, do a long run every week and one race on top of that would be ideal. Id get into it asap aswell because the longer you give your body time to adapt to the long stuff the better. And taking the miles from 50 to 70 is also a good idea and I think 3 weeks is plenty of time to that within, so I think youre bang on track.

As for a PB in rotterdamn.......Thats the target anyway and barring any unforseen craziness, I reckon Im good for sub 2:45 at least.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

village runner wrote: »

Hi VR,
I'll be doing one long run every week. Last week was 22.5miles so this week(sunday 22nd)it'll be 24.5miles. And next week it'll be 26.5 miles. Aftre that the plan is to hold it for 26.5 for 3 weeks and then increase to 28miles, hold for 4 weeks, and then take it up to 30miles, hold that for a few weeks see what happens. That'll bring me up to febuary. Dont think I'll go any higher than 30miles though, after that It'll be a case of doing the 30miles as quickly as possible(trying to do that in under 3hrs would be a big goal).
Personally I think that guy you spoke to is right, do a long run every week and one race on top of that would be ideal. Id get into it asap aswell because the longer you give your body time to adapt to the long stuff the better. And taking the miles from 50 to 70 is also a good idea and I think 3 weeks is plenty of time to that within, so I think youre bang on track.

As for a PB in rotterdamn.......Thats the target anyway and barring any unforseen craziness, I reckon Im good for sub 2:45 at least.

I agree with alot of your principles. Long run every week(not 5 in a program when so many lads hit the wall) Increasing the mileage although not doing it for the sake of it. I know i wont run 2.49 on 50 miles a week. But i dont agree with running over the distance although i know plenty of lads that do and are serious runners(sub 2.40 men)My body wouldnt manage it to be honest.
What would the benefit of running a 30 miler in under 3 hours ?? Thats roughly 2.36 marathon pace and within your program. ~I ran 21 last time 26 days before the marathon at MP and it took me 2 weeks to recover. Keep up the training and will be looking forward to reading your training and i hope the body withstands those thrashings its going to get over hte nxt few months(hence why you told me to get the long ones in early and get the body used to it)

tunguska

village runner wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

But i dont agree with running over the distance although i know plenty of lads that do and are serious runners(sub 2.40 men)My body wouldnt manage it to be honest.
What would the benefit of running a 30 miler in under 3 hours ?? Thats roughly 2.36 marathon pace and within your program. ~I ran 21 last time 26 days before the marathon at MP and it took me 2 weeks to recover. Keep up the training and will be looking forward to reading your training and i hope the body withstands those thrashings its going to get over hte nxt few months(hence why you told me to get the long ones in early and get the body used to it)

The purpose of going over the distance is Physiological but (for me anyway)psychological aswell. Ive gone over the distance required for other races e.g. running 13miles in preparation for a 10mile race and ive found this to be superior than just training the bare minimum 10miles. So Im applying the same principle here. And thats also why im starting the long stuff so early, so that my body will have plenty of time to adapt. I know this isnt what Hal higdon or even P&D recommends but Im using my own intuition here and feeling this out for myself and I think it'll work out well(again for me anyway, cant speak for anybody else). But also Im a big admirer of John Treacy and in preparation for the 1984 Olympics he ran over the distance(a couple of 30milers). Because I am using my own intuition that means this is all experimental for me so when I say that I think 30mile runs would be beneficial Im guessing because Ive never done a 30mile run. It may not work out but at the same time I have to find out for myself, I cant let anybody tell me that running over the distance doesnt work. Every person is physiological unique so what doesnt work for somebody else might work for me. But the Bottom line is: I have to find out for myself.

tunguska

Friday 20th November:

22.5 miles

Plan was to run 24.5 on sunday but the forecast for the weekend was pretty awful. I hate running in the wind and rain(although rain by itself is ok)so decided to make hay while the sun shines and do long run last night in pretty much perfect conditions. Although due to time constraints had to cut it short from the planned 24.5, which was probably a good thing considering that it was a fairly tough run to begin with. Very happy with it though and Im delighted to be knocking out these good long runs so early, especially before crimbo. Will do 24.5 next sunday for definite.

Although the attrocious weather has raised some issues in regards to back-up plans. Have created alternate training sessions that can be performed on the treadmill in case of really bad weather. Have created Interval session, a repeat session, and a long run session. All pretty decent so losses will be at a minimum, if at all.

tunguska

Summary of training week:

Saturday 14th November:

22.5 miles @6:55/mile

Sunday 15th November:

12.5 miles @7:00/mile

Monday 16th November:

10.5 miles @7:00/mile(am)
10.5 miles @7:11/mile(pm)

Tuesday 17th November

No training due to unforseen circumstances

Wednesday 18th November:

Treadmill Interval session

6 miles

Thursday 19th November:

Fairly crap treadmill session due to track speed session being called off(weather).

Core, back and leg weight training

Friday 20th November:

22.5 miles @ 7:00/mile

Happy enough overall due to crapness of weather all week. Have contingency plans in place for future bad weather conditions.

Next week:
Increase long run to 24.5miles
Speed session - 8 x 800s @ 2:30 pace with 1:00min rest between
Tempo run - 10 miles @ 6mins/mile

Slogger Jogger

Fair play to you Tunguska. I wish I had half of that dedication.

Peckham

What benefits do you get from doing one of your weekly interval sessions on a treadmill? Is this so you can regulate the pace a bit better?

Fascinating reading over the past few pages - only found this today.

tunguska

Peckham wrote: »

What benefits do you get from doing one of your weekly interval sessions on a treadmill? Is this so you can regulate the pace a bit better?

Fascinating reading over the past few pages - only found this today.

Hi Peckham,
Ive a few reasons for doing the Interval session on the treadmill. It came about through necessity really, I hate running in strong winds and so I tried out the treadmill one day when it was particularly bad. I found running on the flat treadmill pretty naff so I used an incline. Over a period of time I experimented and came up with the session I use today.
Yes, Regulating pace is also a big reason for using the treadmill. I just find that overall I can get a really good session in using the treadmill. I use the heartrate monitor to compare indoor and outdoor sessions so using the treadmill is comparable to the sessions we'd do on the track, even harder if I wish. I did most of the training for my first marathon on a treamill so theyre definitely an overlooked resource. Less impact is also another reason why I use the treadmill. My left foot gives me some trouble due to bad biomechanics so its a relief to finish a run not half crippled. Although Im heading out to the leinster clinic tomorrow to get sorted for some orthotics so hopefully that'll do the job.

tunguska

Saturday 21st November:

7.5 miles @7mins/mile

Semi rest day after 22 miler the day before

Sunday 22nd November:

(1) (am)Treadmill Interval session as per previous one. Had to use the 'mill again due to extreme crapness of weather. Seriously this weather better sort itself out............

(2) 10.5 miles @ 7:10/mile (pm)

Total for day: 16 miles

Monday 23rd November:

(1) 10.5 miles @7:20/mile

(2) 10.5 miles (planned for this evening)

Slow one this morning, took it very handy after yesterday but will take the pace up a little this evening

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

village runner wrote: »

Hi VR,
I'll be doing one long run every week. Last week was 22.5miles so this week(sunday 22nd)it'll be 24.5miles. And next week it'll be 26.5 miles. Aftre that the plan is to hold it for 26.5 for 3 weeks and then increase to 28miles, hold for 4 weeks, and then take it up to 30miles, hold that for a few weeks see what happens. That'll bring me up to febuary. Dont think I'll go any higher than 30miles though, after that It'll be a case of doing the 30miles as quickly as possible(trying to do that in under 3hrs would be a big goal).
Personally I think that guy you spoke to is right, do a long run every week and one race on top of that would be ideal. Id get into it asap aswell because the longer you give your body time to adapt to the long stuff the better. And taking the miles from 50 to 70 is also a good idea and I think 3 weeks is plenty of time to that within, so I think youre bang on track.

As for a PB in rotterdamn.......Thats the target anyway and barring any unforseen craziness, I reckon Im good for sub 2:45 at least.

Can i ask wat sort of measures you are taking in terms of tackling your constant glycogen depletion. The fact that you are aiming for these kinda paces (10 min quicker than your PB on way to a 30 mile run). It seems to me that if not tackled you run a very high risk of becoming hypoglycemic to maintain these paces and distances on your runs?

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Can i ask wat sort of measures you are taking in terms of your constant glycogen depletion. The fact that you are aiming for these kinda paces (10 min quicker than your PB on way to a 30 mile run). It seems to me that if not tackled you run a very high risk of becoming hypoglycemic to maintain these paces and distances?

What glycogen depletion? Youre making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I know what glycogen depletion feels like (bonked on the bike many a time) and trust me, Im nowhere near that stage.

rigal

Just started reading your log tunguska. It is fascinating stuff and you're only a week or so in!

Best of luck and looking forward to reading about the 30 milers!!

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

What glycogen depletion? Youre making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I know what glycogen depletion feels like (bonked on the bike many a time) and trust me, Im nowhere near that stage.

Sorry just unless you are taken a hell of alot of gels while on the runs ands carbs as reserves can be depleted usually between 15 an 20 miles so at thirty i would have thought that this would be a factor which must be looked at in terms of your training.

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Sorry just unless you are taken a hell of alot of gels while on the runs ands carbs as reserves can be depleted usually between 15 an 20 miles so at thirty i would have thought that this would be a factor which must be looked at in terms of your training.

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.
I have struggled on long runs before but its managable and never anything too heavy. The only time I ever hit the wall(on a run anyway) was last year in my first marathon, but there were no amount of gels that couldve done anything for that. It was a case of not having done the long runs and my body just wasnt efficient enough.
I know what your saying and it is a valid point, but I just think theres no need to become reliant upon gels etc. as the body adapts. Or I should say that my body seems to adapt, because as always, I can only speak for myself. And what works for one man doesnt work for another.

ecoli

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.
I have struggled on long runs before but its managable and never anything too heavy. The only time I ever hit the wall(on a run anyway) was last year in my first marathon, but there were no amount of gels that couldve done anything for that. It was a case of not having done the long runs and my body just wasnt efficient enough.
I know what your saying and it is a valid point, but I just think theres no need to become reliant upon gels etc. as the body adapts. Or I should say that my body seems to adapt, because as always, I can only speak for myself. And what works for one man doesnt work for another.

I was just interested in your thoughts and if it works well then the best of luck with it you have managed to defy human physiology we all should be so lucky

shels4ever

tunguska wrote: »

ecoli wrote: »

I dont take gels, I dont touch them. I read an article once (it was a while ago and I cant for the life of me remember what magazine it was from)and in it the guy, who was a marathon runner said that he never went near gels. His theory was that the body adapts. The more long runs you do the more efficient your body becomes at using what you have.

Yep I based some of my training on that too didnt use gels for any long run last year, found it good , byut my plan was to use them come race day. What way do you deal with the race, do you jsut use sport drink?

nice read here
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/marathonlongrun.htm
no way near 30 miles I have to add ...

tunguska

shels4ever wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

Yep I based some of my training on that too didnt use gels for any long run last year, found it good , byut my plan was to use them come race day. What way do you deal with the race, do you jsut use sport drink?

nice read here
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/marathonlongrun.htm
no way near 30 miles I have to add ...

Yeah just sipped the sports drinks during the marathon, mostly just water though. The guy I train with doesnt even touch the sports drinks at all, never mind gels just water in a marathon, . And he's a 2:40 marathon man aswell.

tunguska

ecoli wrote: »

tunguska wrote: »

I was just interested in your thoughts and if it works well then the best of luck with it you have managed to defy human physiology we all should be so lucky

I dont think thats the case at all ecoli, I havent done anything extraordinary or unique. Ive just gone with my inuition and that told me gels and the like arent necessary.

TheRoadRunner

Hey tunguska. You seem to be a lot of long runs very early in your program. Have you done this previously and if so did you ever find you suffered from fatigue mid program. Also would you have any concerns injury wise ? Biomechanically speaking I could not do many 20+ mile runs before a marathon. I see your log as a bit of an experiment so will be keeping an eye on it with interest and treating you as a human guinea pig

Regarding gels I don't take them myself and while the body can adapt to certain things surely additional carbohydrates during a race can only help. I take glucose tablets and sweets instead of gels and find them a huge help. I generally don't take much carbohydrates on board during training. The reason for you not taking gels on seems to be based on a single article, I could point you towards many opposing articles. I suppose it a personal thing again and in this regard I will again be looking at you as a human guinea pig

tunguska

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Hey tunguska. You seem to be a lot of long runs very early in your program. Have you done this previously and if so did you ever find you suffered from fatigue mid program. Also would you have any concerns injury wise ? Biomechanically speaking I could not do many 20+ mile runs before a marathon. I see your log as a bit of an experiment so will be keeping an eye on it with interest and treating you as a human guinea pig

Regarding gels I don't take them myself and while the body can adapt to certain things surely additional carbohydrates during a race can only help. I take glucose tablets and sweets instead of gels and find them a huge help. I generally don't take much carbohydrates on board during training. The reason for you not taking gels on seems to be based on a single article, I could point you towards many opposing articles. I suppose it a personal thing again and in this regard I will again be looking at you as a human guinea pig

Yeah youre right Roadrunner, this is highly experimental stuff, I admit that. But as I said before, Im using my own intuition to feel my way along the program. No problem with you using me as a human Guinea pig although I have to reiterate that what works for me may not work for everybody.

As for the early long runs and injury...........well injury is always a possibility but Im not going to live my life worried about what ifs or maybes. Im gonna try this out for myself and if I get injured I get injured. So be it, I'll deal with it if it happens. But again, I cant worry about what may or may not happen.

In regards to the gels, im not just basing my decision to knock them on the head simply because of just one article. Im going by conversations with experienced runners and also, again, my own intuition. Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything. And Ive talked to a few of them since and confirmed that they didnt use gels in the marathon or during their training. So im not going to use them at all, and this is another reason for starting the long runs so early in the program. So that I give my body plenty of time to adapt and become more effiecient at using what it has.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

In regards to the gels, im not just basing my decision to knock them on the head simply because of just one article. Im going by conversations with experienced runners and also, again, my own intuition. Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything. And Ive talked to a few of them since and confirmed that they didnt use gels in the marathon or during their training. So im not going to use them at all, and this is another reason for starting the long runs so early in the program. So that I give my body plenty of time to adapt and become more effiecient at using what it has.

I agree that you dont need gels in dublin(in marathons i disagree unless you have someone handing you drinks). With Energiser as 8,12,15 and maqybe another one at 19 you could take a bottle at each station. The problem with other marathons the carb drinks standard is poor. In rotterdam with what they give you you may as well drink water. Berlin its no better. I got a carb drink at halfway and 35 km in berlin and had no reason to take a gel from 12 miles.

TheRoadRunner

tunguska wrote: »

Put it this way, when I was running the Dublin marathon this year I saw an awful lot of lads with those batman-like utility belts around their waists packed with gels, small containers and God knows what else. I did the marathon in 2:45 and there wasnt one of those boys anywhere to be seen. Everybody finishing around me had no belts or gels or anything.

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

I know some of the lads looking for around 2.20 had their prepepared carb drinks on tables waiting for them.

tunguska

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Maybe the guys 15 minutes ahead of you used gels

Its possible but I'll tell you this much, I was right beside the 2:30 lads at the start and not one had the utility belt thing going on;)

Sosa

tunguska wrote: »

Its possible but I'll tell you this much, I was right beside the 2:30 lads at the start and not one had the utility belt thing going on;)

I carried 5 gels for Dublin but you would not have known by looking at me,they were nicely pinned inside my shorts.
1 on each hip,2 in back pocket and i had another in an inside pocket.

tunguska

Sosa wrote: »

I carried 5 gels for Dublin but you would not have known by looking at me,they were nicely pinned inside my shorts.
1 on each hip,2 in back pocket and i had another in an inside pocket.

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Sosa

tunguska wrote: »

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Makes no odds to me if you use 10 gels or none,Tunguska
I was merely showing an example of how people carry gels.
I was not getting into a debate about it,just a comment.

village runner

tunguska wrote: »

Alright lads enough about the gel issue please!!! If you want to take gels during races or training then thats your choice. And if they work for you, great. Im not getting dragged into a discussion or debate about the validity or merits of gel taking and I apologise for having done so already. That ends now though. Im not here to explain or justify what I do, this log is a record of my training and thats all, nothing more. If you want to ask a question about my training thats grand but again, Im not getting into debates that lead nowhere.
Cheers

Going by the amount of views its getting people are interested in your log as am i. I am always interested in how better runners do it.
I have increased mileage to 70, long run every week so i have got alot out of your log. you are dead right to stick to your guns.

TheRoadRunner

Sosa wrote: »

Makes no odds to me if you use 10 gels or none,Tunguska
I was merely showing an example of how people carry gels.
I was not getting into a debate about it,just a comment.

+1. I'm more interested in seeing the impact (positive or negative) it will have on your results so log away.

tunguska

Thanks for the support and interest VR , Sosa and Roadrunner, I appreciate it lads. Im just not one for debates thats all, but I do understand where youre all coming from.

Anyway back to the business at hand.........

Monday 23rd November:

(1) 10.5 miles (am)

(2) 5 miles (pm)

plan was for 10.5 in the evening aswell but time constraints but an end to that. But its fine, still early days yet.

Tuesday 24th November:

Due to strikeage and the like I had to miss training that day(unfortunately I am a government employee). But like I said not too concerned as its early days and I'll just shift my day off from saturday to tuesday.

Wednesday 25th November:

Weather attrocious again so I had to hit my old friend the treadmill once more. But as always it was a good session. Ver tough

(1) 6 miles (am) treadmill interval session

(2) 10.5miles @ 7 mins per mile (pm)

Thursday 26th November:

Plan for the day is speed work on the track with the club and then 7 -10 miles later(or a game of 5-a-side, even though I really should stay away from the football, I cant!)

christeb

tunguska wrote: »

Plan for the day is speed work on the track with the club and then 7 -10 miles later(or a game of 5-a-side, even though I really should stay away from the football, I cant!)

Step AWAY from the astro! At my level I'm allowed the odd game , but for a someone like yourself, you're putting so much time and effort into your training, personally I wouldn't be anywhere near a pitch. Not worth the risk IMO