Draft Public Sector deal

Dozen Wicked Words · 01-12-2009 01:59PM

TheZohan wrote: »

No it won't be the same wage bill. If we take it that there are 48 working weeks in the year it is in effect an 8.3% pay cut. And if what you say is correct, that nurses aren't getting their hours, it will work out nicely for healthcare.

Yeah hopefully the lads who qualified in September and were only given a monthly contract might be a bit more secure. One thing though, if there are more nurses in the system covering these unpaid leave periods wont that mean more costs covering their pensions etc? If the answer is glaringly obvious please feel free to ignore this query.

Kradock · 01-12-2009 02:00PM

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Perhaps that's because the Government isn't a company...

You are correct but they are an employer with a wage bill

Riskymove · 01-12-2009 02:02PM

Kradock wrote: »

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment. No redundacies says it all about the backbones of this Government.

1. funnily enough I know of private companies that will try lots of things incluiding unpaid leave, closing for periods etc before making anyone redundant

2. 3,000 less public servants than last year and plans to reduce by 17,000 odd over next couple of years...without redundancy

3. Redundnacies would cost a significant amount of money

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:06PM

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

Riskymove · 01-12-2009 02:09PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no mention of any reform

really?

The plan put forward by trade unions to avoid across-the-board pay cuts would require staff in the public service obliged to take up to 14 days compulsory unpaid leave as a temporary measure in 2010. This would be replaced in later years by an overall transformation programme in the public service involving significant job reductions and greater productivity.

FlutterinBantam · 01-12-2009 02:09PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

yes, that about sums it up.

If Govt. agree to this rubbish, we can start boarding up the windows and look for somewhere to live.

Kradock · 01-12-2009 02:09PM

Riskymove wrote: »

1. funnily enough I know of private companies that will try lots of things incluiding unpaid leave, closing for periods etc before making anyone redundant

Your right , but you can bet the workforce won't go on strike while it is trying and hold their customers to ransom.

2. 3,000 less public servants than last year and plans to reduce by 17,000 odd over next couple of years...without redundancy

Attrition is part of life, ask the private sector

3. Redundnacies would cost a significant amount of money

Long term gain

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:12PM

Riskymove wrote: »

really?

replaced in later years by an overall transformation programme in the public service involving significant job reductions and greater productivity.

IN LATER YEARS Key words, ie we'll leave it up to the next government to sort it out.

There should have been reforms years ago, most notably when the HSE was formed but the exact same as the statement above happened.

opinion guy · 01-12-2009 02:14PM

Kradock wrote: »

Ok , so say my 50k is really only €47K+. So if I was a teacher I would be able to stay in Oz for September also. My heart bleeds for the Public sector.

Smart Bug wrote: »

As a public sector worker I'm in a position to clear up a few misconceptions here:

1. This is unpaid leave in addition to annual holidays.

You both seem to be assuming that these 20 days would be in addition to base holidays. I SERIOUSLY doubt this will be the case. In practice what will happen is that the 20 days will merely be the same 20 days holiday one had last year just minus the pay

Kradock wrote: »

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment. No redundacies says it all about the backbones of this Government.

Note . I would not wish to see anyone unemployed but savings of this magnitude would mean job losses in any other sector.

What you don't seem to understand is that these people are there to provide service to the public. The hospital for instance are ALREADY dangerously understaffed - they CAN'T get rid of staff.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

How do you reckno ? Its same work for less money. If it was so overpaid why didn't you get a job there ? The government don't care about reform

Josey Wales · 01-12-2009 02:16PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

What world are you living in? Sweet deal? It isn't like workers in the public service want to be told to stay at home and not get paid.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

Do you even know how much workers are paid? True the people working in the higher levels of the public service are well paid but what about the vast majority? They are not well paid at all. You know the starting salary for a service officer is less than 21,000 while a clerical officer will start on less than 22,000. Overpaid? I don't think so.

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:17PM

opinion guy wrote: »

How do you reckno ? Its same work for less money. If it was so overpaid why didn't you get a job there ? The government don't care about reform

its less work. you're working 20 days less, how is that the same work?

there is no way this will "replace" paid holidays, it will be in addition to.

Kimbot · 01-12-2009 02:18PM

A month without pay and people think its a sweet deal?? As it stands I barely get money together for rent and bills etc. Now I have to take a month off with no pay and be expected to survive!!!

FlutterinBantam · 01-12-2009 02:20PM

There is this concept called 'saving'.

Josey Wales · 01-12-2009 02:20PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its less work. you're working 20 days less, how is that the same work?

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:20PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

A month without pay and people think its a sweet deal?? As it stands I barely get money together for rent and bills etc. Now I have to take a month off with no pay and be expected to survive!!!

at the most basic level it equates to a pay cut of 8.3% (1 month in 12)

Not nearly enough, should be at least double that. We have to cut €30 Bn not just the €1.3 the gov have made up for this year.

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:21PM

Josey Wales wrote: »

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

No services will just be cut back so the work does not arise.

Josey Wales · 01-12-2009 02:22PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

There is this concept called 'saving'.

Easy to say if you are on a nice fat wage. Try saving if you are one of the lower paid earners in either the public or private sector. If it were really that easy to save nobody would ever have any money troubles.

Kradock · 01-12-2009 02:23PM

opinion guy wrote: »

You both seem to be assuming that these 20 days would be in addition to base holidays. I SERIOUSLY doubt this will be the case. In practice what will happen is that the 20 days will merely be the same 20 days holiday one had last year just minus the pay

Bull , they will be additional to paid holidays. It will also suit the better paid civil servants.

What you don't seem to understand is that these people are there to provide service to the public. The hospital for instance are ALREADY dangerously understaffed - they CAN'T get rid of staff.

Why, can't they can restructure and provide a better service . Its called working smarter. Its done in business everyday.

Kradock · 01-12-2009 02:24PM

Josey Wales wrote: »

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

Christ , if any other business had this approach they would close.

Kimbot · 01-12-2009 02:25PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

at the most basic level it equates to a pay cut of 8.3% (1 month in 12)

Not nearly enough, should be at least double that. We have to cut €30 Bn not just the €1.3 the gov have made up for this year.

Its a paycut of 8.3% plus the pension levy paycut of near 7%.
Most I have seen cut in the private sector is 10% yet all of us have to get shafted!!

So how much do you reckon should they cut?? 40%.....?

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:25PM

Kradock wrote: »

Christ , if any other business had this approach they would close.

but "any other business" has to operate in the real world

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:26PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

Its a paycut of 8.3% plus the pension levy paycut of near 7%.
Most I have seen cut in the private sector is 10% yet all of us have to get shafted!!

So how much do you reckon should they cut?? 40%.....?

The pension levy is not a paycut.

Minimum cut should be 15% ranging up to probably 30-35% for top end earners

Kradock · 01-12-2009 02:26PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

A month without pay and people think its a sweet deal?? As it stands I barely get money together for rent and bills etc. Now I have to take a month off with no pay and be expected to survive!!!

There are always those who will be effected more than others . Alot of the civil service will be quietly pleased with what happening. Again the better paid.

danman · 01-12-2009 02:28PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

Its a paycut of 8.3% plus the amount of money we are now paying towards our own pension of near 7%.
Most I have seen cut in the private sector is 10% yet all of us have to get shafted!!

So how much do you reckon should they cut?? 40%.....?

There, I fixed it for you.

opinion guy · 01-12-2009 02:30PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its less work. you're working 20 days less, how is that the same work?

there is no way this will "replace" paid holidays, it will be in addition to.

Kradock wrote: »

Bull , they will be additional to paid holidays. It will also suit the better paid civil servants.

Absolutely guarantee you this won't happen. These holidays WILL be existing holidays - ONLY way it can work. If they are extra holidays then they will have to hire in expensive temp staff to cover.

Why can't they can restructure and provide a better service . Its called working smarter. Its done in business everyday.

Because they refuse to. I know for a fact unions were attempting to engage with HSE from last year to try and work out better ways of doing things and the HSE refused to engage the debate.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

There is this concept called 'saving'.

Thats just ****ign insulting both to the public sector workers and the private sectors workers who have lost their jobs. We all could have been saving for a long time. Fact is our government should have encouraged this and should have been saving themselves. Didn't happen. And by definition one can only save expendable income - which is exactly what people are losing.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No services will just be cut back so the work does not arise.

Unfortunately that's probably true.

The pension levy is not a paycut.

WHAT ? how do you reckno that ?

Kimbot · 01-12-2009 02:30PM

danman wrote: »

There, I fixed it for you.

Actually, we already contribute to our pension. The pension levy is not going anywhere near the pension pot. Its gone to bailing out the banks so in effect the Gov are still paying the same money into pensions as they were.

K-9 · 01-12-2009 02:31PM

dooferoaks wrote: »

I can't really see how its going to work in healthcare, if minimum number of nurses on a ward is 3, someone goes on leave, they still have to find someone to fill that 3rd slot on the ward. The wage bill for the ward will be the same wont it? Maybe I am missing something, anyway It will be good for nurses who aren't currently getting their hours, but not sure how its going to save the government much money.

What your missing is the Nurse will not be replaced because that would defeat the purpose of getting pay cuts.

They've just found a worse solution than straight pay cuts. Didn't think it was possible!

Govt. have now ensured even worse cuts in services than with a straight pay cut. Public screwed again.

Unions have agreed to a pay cut but just have days off instead.

Members will not be happy as its a pay cut and they'll have to do extra work to make up for it.

Joe public can look forward to more waiting lists, even higher school classroom sizes, longer delays at the SW office etc.

Social Partnership should have been scrapped 10 years ago when Unions started dictating Govt. policy.

danman · 01-12-2009 02:32PM

Benchmarking was also to include reform, now the unions decide that they have to be applauded for putting public sector reform as part of this package?

They will fight it at every avenue.

K-9 · 01-12-2009 02:33PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

Actually, we already contribute to our pension. The pension levy is not going anywhere near the pension pot. Its gone to bailing out the banks so in effect the Gov are still paying the same money into pensions as they were.

It covers existing pension payments. It goes into the general pool of expenditure, like NAMA, Pay bill, SW etc. but 10% and rising of the pay bill is pensions.

Cookie_Monster · 01-12-2009 02:37PM

opinion guy wrote: »

WHAT ? how do you reckno that ?

Because its paying for your pension

(whether you like to think that or not)

Draft Public Sector deal

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