Draft Public Sector deal

BennyLava

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/draft-deal-on-public-sector-cuts-drawn-up-436514.html


However the Unions play it the Government won, up to 20 days unpaid leave
percentage wise they would have been better off taking a pay cut

We'll all suffer for it though, think about it, nurses, doctors, guards, firemen etc, forced to take between 14-20 extra days off a year, services are really going to be affected,

an example affecting a lot of people, Social Welfare, look how long it takes to process claims now, imaging how long it's going to take when SW staff have to take extra time off

2010 isn't going to be good for any of us:(

seamus

It doesn't really help. We're basically paying the same money for the same service. What about next year when we have to make the same cuts again? Are the public sector going to be happy to lose another month's pay then? Will they fvck.

Another perfect example of the short-sighted, limp-backboned attitude of our Government. Make the difficult decisions you sycophantic bunch of morons!

opinion guy

BennyLava wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/draft-deal-on-public-sector-cuts-drawn-up-436514.html


However the Unions play it the Government won, up to 20 days unpaid leave
percentage wise they would have been better off taking a pay cut

We'll all suffer for it though, think about it, nurses, doctors, guards, firemen etc, forced to take between 14-20 extra days off a year, services are really going to be affected,

an example affecting a lot of people, Social Welfare, look how long it takes to process claims now, imaging how long it's going to take when SW staff have to take extra time off

2010 isn't going to be good for any of us:(

Ok you have to wise up here. The government DO NOT GIVE A F**K about services. They have cut the **** out of services already. Special eds teachers - gone. Classroom assistants - gone. Many health care jobs already gone (temp jobs yes and some permanent also, but thats all affecting services).


Also 20 days oblig leave next year is going to be irrelevant if they can't fill the jobs to begin with:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1128/1224259620164.html

BraziliaNZ

so what realistic solution would the public like to see implemented? What paycut figure will make everyone happy? 30%?

arybvtcw0eolkf

I don't get how this will work.

Will it mean if someone take's their annual leave, ie for a vacation, they're not paid?.

Or is someone told 'Right John/Mary, we won't be needing you for the next 20 days - off you go and sign on for that period'?.

BennyLava

Adilynn Thundering Mimosa wrote: »

I don't get how this will work.

Will it mean if someone take's their annual leave, ie for a vacation, they're not paid?.

Or is someone told 'Right John/Mary, we won't be needing you for the next 20 days - off you go and sign on for that period'?.

Do you honestly see them allowing the workers to sign on, from what their say, unpaid means unpaid, and it appears to be in addition to holiday entitlements

on the + side the Dail will now site for -18 days a year so less time for them to **** thing up ( I wish)

CreepingDeath

BennyLava wrote: »

However the Unions play it the Government won, up to 20 days unpaid leave
percentage wise they would have been better off taking a pay cut

Nope... because now the unions will be whining about being overworked, increased stress and they'll take even more sick days off.

dicknorris

The Government have given in to the unions yet again, no reduction in pay in this deal

arybvtcw0eolkf

BennyLava wrote: »

Do you honestly see them allowing the workers to sign on, from what their say, unpaid means unpaid, and it appears to be in addition to holiday entitlements

Honestly, I don't know.

But thats not really answering the question (I realise you probably don't know the answer). But if I was Mary-Jane Rottencrotch in the Dept.of Justice and I wanted to take five days annual leave, is it these days which I'm not going to be paid for?.. (in which case I'd probably just take a few sick days instead).

Or will this unpaid leave be rostered?.

I can't see how workers can be let go and not allowed sign on for dole payments.

This government, and the public sector unions, baffle the bollox out of me.

TheZohanS

It appears to be 20 unpaid holidays, take the holidays as agreed with your superiors but don't get paid, no signing on for those days either.

As an employee I'd rather have a mandatory 20 extra unpaid holidays than a mandatory pay cut working the same amount of days. As a boss I'd rather implement a pay cut.

It's an interesting concept

Josey Wales

dicknorris wrote: »

The Government have given in to the unions yet again, no reduction in pay in this deal

Of course there is a reduction in pay. That is why it is called unpaid leave. People working in the public sector won't be getting paid for those days they are forced to not go to work.

It is a pay cut no matter what way the unions/gov. try to dress it up.

Kradock

Put it another way , I am earning €50K a year this year and I will also be earning 50K a year next year but I am being told I have to take 20 unpaid days off. I think I'd be happy with that outcome.

If your base salary is the same then how can you lose out.

FlutterinBantam

Only one answer-pay cut across the board.

Cowen,grow some balls and tell these people the truth.

This is so blatantly obvious, that if you can't do the job

get out, and let someone else do it.


tell me they won't agree on this utter crap.

arybvtcw0eolkf

TheZohan wrote: »

It appears to be 20 unpaid holidays, take the holidays as agreed with your superiors but don't get paid, no signing on for those days either.

As an employee I'd rather have a mandatory 20 extra unpaid holidays than a mandatory pay cut working the same amount of days. As a boss I'd rather implement a pay cut.

It's an interesting concept

I see a split in the unions.

Good ploy by the government, but sickening too. First divide and conquer the public and private sector workers, turn the people against his/her neighbour.

Then divide and hopefully conquer the unions.

I feel the day is closer when we'll see real civil disobedience in our towns and cities.

Dozen Wicked Words

I can't really see how its going to work in healthcare, if minimum number of nurses on a ward is 3, someone goes on leave, they still have to find someone to fill that 3rd slot on the ward. The wage bill for the ward will be the same wont it? Maybe I am missing something, anyway It will be good for nurses who aren't currently getting their hours, but not sure how its going to save the government much money.

BennyLava

Kradock wrote: »

Put it another way , I am earning €50K a year this year and I will also be earning 50K a year next year but I am being told I have to take 20 unpaid days off. I think I'd be happy with that outcome.

If your base salary is the same then how can you lose out.

The base salary scale will be the same, but you loose 20 days pay, so in real terms you have had a pay cut

BennyLava

dooferoaks wrote: »

I can't really see how its going to work in healthcare, if minimum number of nurses on a ward is 3, someone goes on leave, they still have to find someone to fill that 3rd slot on the ward. The wage bill for the ward will be the same wont it? Maybe I am missing something, anyway It will be good for nurses who aren't currently getting their hours, but not sure how its going to save the government much money.

It's a cosy deal that, that as usual, will screw those at the bottom, and not adversely affect those at the top, can't have management suffering unduly now can we

FlutterinBantam

Ok Flutther prediction.


Watch the sick leave in the PS escalate as the employees seek to mitigate the hit of this totally hairbrained scheme to save money.


One despairs.

Kradock

BennyLava wrote: »

The base salary scale will be the same, but you loose 20 days pay, so in real terms you have had a pay cut

Ok , so say my 50k is really only €47K+. So if I was a teacher I would be able to stay in Oz for September also. My heart bleeds for the Public sector.

TheZohanS

dooferoaks wrote: »

I can't really see how its going to work in healthcare, if minimum number of nurses on a ward is 3, someone goes on leave, they still have to find someone to fill that 3rd slot on the ward. The wage bill for the ward will be the same wont it? Maybe I am missing something, anyway It will be good for nurses who aren't currently getting their hours, but not sure how its going to save the government much money.

No it won't be the same wage bill. If we take it that there are 48 working weeks in the year it is in effect an 8.3% pay cut. And if what you say is correct, that nurses aren't getting their hours, it will work out nicely for healthcare.

Across the board, productivity-wise, would giving Public Service workers 20 extra unpaid holidays lead to higher net productivity than cutting public sector pay by lets say 10% and having workers work for less money? It's hard to know.

Kradock

BennyLava wrote: »

It's a cosy deal that, that as usual, will screw those at the bottom, and not adversely affect those at the top, can't have management suffering unduly now can we

Isn't it always the way:mad:. Public or Private sector.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BennyLava wrote: »

It's a cosy deal that, that as usual, will screw those at the bottom, and not adversely affect those at the top, can't have management suffering unduly now can we

I'm thinking the same thing, how in the name of good god can a (for example) services officer (messenger to you and me) at the bottom rung of the ladder live for 20 days without pay and be expected to meet basic bills like mortage repayments, utilities, schooling etc.

I'm looking forward to the finer details of this arrangement, it's gonna be interesting and thats for sure.

Smart Bug

As a public sector worker I'm in a position to clear up a few misconceptions here:

1. This is unpaid leave in addition to annual holidays.
2. The public sector wage is worked out over all days in a month (insane, yes), i.e. when you're working out daily wages for a week you divide the figure by 7 (weekend included), therefore 14 days unpaid leave means 10working days off for the employee. At least that's my understanding of the f*cked up way our pay is calculated.
3. You cannot claim welfare payments when you're in fulltime employment. I really haven't a clue where this crazy idea came from. This is unpaid leave, people aren't being laid off for two weeks ffs.
4. This is an effort by the unions to leave basic pay untouched but reduce the cost of our wages to the exchequer.
5. As Makikomi said, this an effort (a successful effort imo) on the Government's behalf to split the unions. Gardai, teachers, nurses and doctors cannot take this extra leave as they cannot be replaced in these front-line service areas (ban on hire of temp staff etc).

Riskymove

Kradock wrote: »

Put it another way , I am earning €50K a year this year and I will also be earning 50K a year next year but I am being told I have to take 20 unpaid days off. I think I'd be happy with that outcome.

If your base salary is the same then how can you lose out.

eer...what?

you earn less salary in the year...thats how you lose out

markpb

BennyLava wrote: »

We'll all suffer for it though, think about it, nurses, doctors, guards, firemen etc, forced to take between 14-20 extra days off a year, services are really going to be affected

RTE said this morning that it wouldn't be an outright directive, any critical areas would be exempt.

I'm not sure the government really won this round. Unless it's changed since this morning, this won't affect their pension so it's only a slight saving. It also means the government have to negotiate more savings next year. It's a ridiculous short-term solution.

Kradock

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment. No redundacies says it all about the backbones of this Government.


Note . I would not wish to see anyone unemployed but savings of this magnitude would mean job losses in any other sector.

InReality

20 unpaid days works out at about saving of 1.2 billion. I hope the govt goes for it.

mikedragon32

Kradock wrote: »

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment.

Perhaps that's because the Government isn't a company...

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'm off to watch the one o'clock news, the explaination from both the government and the unions should be good.

Riskymove

markpb wrote: »

Unless it's changed since this morning, this won't affect their pension so it's only a slight saving.

Its the saving that they wanted to get....and we have a problem bridging the deficit NOW not when these people retire, lets handle that first

It also means the government have to negotiate more savings next year. It's a ridiculous short-term solution.

Its supposed to be abridging measure ahead of more long-term plans for reduction in numbers and other measures (i.e. reform - if the Govt can finally tackle the issues)

Kradock

Riskymove wrote: »

eer...what?

you earn less salary in the year...thats how you lose out

I see that now.

Dozen Wicked Words

TheZohan wrote: »

No it won't be the same wage bill. If we take it that there are 48 working weeks in the year it is in effect an 8.3% pay cut. And if what you say is correct, that nurses aren't getting their hours, it will work out nicely for healthcare.

Yeah hopefully the lads who qualified in September and were only given a monthly contract might be a bit more secure. One thing though, if there are more nurses in the system covering these unpaid leave periods wont that mean more costs covering their pensions etc? If the answer is glaringly obvious please feel free to ignore this query.

Kradock

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Perhaps that's because the Government isn't a company...

You are correct but they are an employer with a wage bill

Riskymove

Kradock wrote: »

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment. No redundacies says it all about the backbones of this Government.

1. funnily enough I know of private companies that will try lots of things incluiding unpaid leave, closing for periods etc before making anyone redundant


2. 3,000 less public servants than last year and plans to reduce by 17,000 odd over next couple of years...without redundancy

3. Redundnacies would cost a significant amount of money

Cookie_Monster

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no mention of any reform

really?

The plan put forward by trade unions to avoid across-the-board pay cuts would require staff in the public service obliged to take up to 14 days compulsory unpaid leave as a temporary measure in 2010. This would be replaced in later years by an overall transformation programme in the public service involving significant job reductions and greater productivity.

FlutterinBantam

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

yes, that about sums it up.

If Govt. agree to this rubbish, we can start boarding up the windows and look for somewhere to live.

Kradock

Riskymove wrote: »

1. funnily enough I know of private companies that will try lots of things incluiding unpaid leave, closing for periods etc before making anyone redundant

Your right , but you can bet the workforce won't go on strike while it is trying and hold their customers to ransom.


2. 3,000 less public servants than last year and plans to reduce by 17,000 odd over next couple of years...without redundancy

Attrition is part of life, ask the private sector

3. Redundnacies would cost a significant amount of money

Long term gain

Cookie_Monster

Riskymove wrote: »

really?

replaced in later years by an overall transformation programme in the public service involving significant job reductions and greater productivity.

IN LATER YEARS Key words, ie we'll leave it up to the next government to sort it out.

There should have been reforms years ago, most notably when the HSE was formed but the exact same as the statement above happened.

opinion guy

Kradock wrote: »

Ok , so say my 50k is really only €47K+. So if I was a teacher I would be able to stay in Oz for September also. My heart bleeds for the Public sector.

Smart Bug wrote: »

As a public sector worker I'm in a position to clear up a few misconceptions here:

1. This is unpaid leave in addition to annual holidays.

You both seem to be assuming that these 20 days would be in addition to base holidays. I SERIOUSLY doubt this will be the case. In practice what will happen is that the 20 days will merely be the same 20 days holiday one had last year just minus the pay

Kradock wrote: »

There aren't many companies in the world that having to save €1.2Billion that can look at keeping people in fulltime employment. No redundacies says it all about the backbones of this Government.


Note . I would not wish to see anyone unemployed but savings of this magnitude would mean job losses in any other sector.

What you don't seem to understand is that these people are there to provide service to the public. The hospital for instance are ALREADY dangerously understaffed - they CAN'T get rid of staff.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

Less money for less work. Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

:mad::mad::mad:

How do you reckno ? Its same work for less money. If it was so overpaid why didn't you get a job there ? The government don't care about reform

Josey Wales

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Once again the public service have gotten a sweet deal.

What world are you living in? Sweet deal? It isn't like workers in the public service want to be told to stay at home and not get paid.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Still massively overpaid and no mention of any reform

Do you even know how much workers are paid? True the people working in the higher levels of the public service are well paid but what about the vast majority? They are not well paid at all. You know the starting salary for a service officer is less than 21,000 while a clerical officer will start on less than 22,000. Overpaid? I don't think so.

Cookie_Monster

opinion guy wrote: »

How do you reckno ? Its same work for less money. If it was so overpaid why didn't you get a job there ? The government don't care about reform

its less work. you're working 20 days less, how is that the same work?

there is no way this will "replace" paid holidays, it will be in addition to.

Kimbot

A month without pay and people think its a sweet deal?? As it stands I barely get money together for rent and bills etc. Now I have to take a month off with no pay and be expected to survive!!!

FlutterinBantam

There is this concept called 'saving'.

Josey Wales

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

its less work. you're working 20 days less, how is that the same work?

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

Cookie_Monster

jonny24ie wrote: »

A month without pay and people think its a sweet deal?? As it stands I barely get money together for rent and bills etc. Now I have to take a month off with no pay and be expected to survive!!!

at the most basic level it equates to a pay cut of 8.3% (1 month in 12)

Not nearly enough, should be at least double that. We have to cut €30 Bn not just the €1.3 the gov have made up for this year.

Cookie_Monster

Josey Wales wrote: »

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

No services will just be cut back so the work does not arise.

Josey Wales

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

There is this concept called 'saving'.

Easy to say if you are on a nice fat wage. Try saving if you are one of the lower paid earners in either the public or private sector. If it were really that easy to save nobody would ever have any money troubles.

Kradock

opinion guy wrote: »

You both seem to be assuming that these 20 days would be in addition to base holidays. I SERIOUSLY doubt this will be the case. In practice what will happen is that the 20 days will merely be the same 20 days holiday one had last year just minus the pay

Bull , they will be additional to paid holidays. It will also suit the better paid civil servants.



What you don't seem to understand is that these people are there to provide service to the public. The hospital for instance are ALREADY dangerously understaffed - they CAN'T get rid of staff.

Why, can't they can restructure and provide a better service . Its called working smarter. Its done in business everyday.

Kradock

Josey Wales wrote: »

It is the same work because when you go back to work the workload will be waiting for you. Depending on what part of the public service you work in the work isn't going to be done for you. It will have to wait till you get back from your enforced absence.

Christ , if any other business had this approach they would close.

Kimbot

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

at the most basic level it equates to a pay cut of 8.3% (1 month in 12)

Not nearly enough, should be at least double that. We have to cut €30 Bn not just the €1.3 the gov have made up for this year.

Its a paycut of 8.3% plus the pension levy paycut of near 7%.
Most I have seen cut in the private sector is 10% yet all of us have to get shafted!!


So how much do you reckon should they cut?? 40%.....?