Former Concentration Camp guard, 89 years old and under trial

Swarles Barkley · 01-12-2009 12:56AM

I've been thinking about this scenario since hearing it on the news earlier today and I'm really conflicted as to how I feel about it.

It bears a bit of a resemblance to the plot of "The Reader" in which a female character (Kate Winslet) is brought to trial for her part as a prison guard during WWII. Obviously she wasn't 89 at the time but it raised a similar moral dilemma as to whether she as a lowly order taker should be punished for essentially being on the losing side.

Terrible, despicable, unspeakable horrors happened during that time and we can't just offer a carte blance to those involved and file it under "War related atrocities". But, and its a big but, what is achieved by prosecuting those that merely carried out orders under duress with the prospect of death for non-compliance. To me they appear to be as much a victim in this as anyone else.

Perhaps a trial is the best means of laying out the facts of this particular case. However I'm not sure the outcome (either way) would have any real purpose.

partyatmygaff · 01-12-2009 01:03AM

Swarles Barkley wrote: »

Perhaps a trial is the best means of laying out the facts of this particular case. However I'm not sure the outcome (either way) would have any real purpose.

The only outcome (If he is indeed innocent) is that they put a frail old man under trial for 3rd time. If he is guilty, It would be unlikely he would get much more than a suspended sentence.

Seloth · 01-12-2009 01:05AM

Look in all fairness if he was an actualy Nazi Officer...Heck maybe even pushing it if he were a soldier there then yes the trial should go ahead...but he wasnt,he was a Soviet,Not a Nazi!,He was forced into it and most likely did it as he feared he would be treated as they were....I cna hardly believe that this man would have done this willingly.

smurgen · 01-12-2009 01:06AM

no i don't think so. i've been thinking about a line Robert Fisk said at the UCC Law Society annual conference lately and it's got me thinking : "show me the winners of a war and i'll show you the war criminals".plenty of war criminals around the world who aren't in persuit with the same rigour as the nazis and they're associates just because they happened to be on the winning side

Dave! · 01-12-2009 01:18AM

Being old shouldn't give you immunity from the law. He either committed a crime or he didn't, just like the old priests who buggered altar boys in the 80's (and beyond). If there's reason to believe he's guilty, try him. If he was coerced into doing what he did, then he'll probably be found innocent. I'm sure the facts will come out during the trial.

partyatmygaff · 01-12-2009 01:42AM

Seloth wrote: »

Look in all fairness if he was an actualy Nazi Officer...Heck maybe even pushing it if he were a soldier there then yes the trial should go ahead...but he wasnt,he was a Soviet,Not a Nazi!,He was forced into it and most likely did it as he feared he would be treated as they were....I cna hardly believe that this man would have done this willingly.

Nazi Officer??? You do know the officers are of much higher authority and are far more responsible.

How the hell would an enemy POW even become a nazi soldier let alone an officer. He was a soviet soldier captured and forced to work as a prison guard kind of like the jews forced to become sonderkommandos, he was no nazi, he was forced to cooperate with the Nazis and no more than that.

MikeC101 · 01-12-2009 01:49AM

Seloth wrote: »

Look in all fairness if he was an actualy Nazi Officer...Heck maybe even pushing it if he were a soldier there then yes the trial should go ahead...but he wasnt,he was a Soviet,Not a Nazi!,He was forced into it and most likely did it as he feared he would be treated as they were....I cna hardly believe that this man would have done this willingly.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Nazi Officer??? You do know the officers are of much higher authority and are far more responsible.

How the hell would an enemy POW even become a nazi soldier let alone an officer. He was a soviet soldier captured and forced to work as a prison guard kind of like the jews forced to become sonderkommandos, he was no nazi, he was forced to cooperate with the Nazis and no more than that.

Eh....am I losing it, or are you arguing with someone who has said the exact same thing you did?

TerrorFirmer · 01-12-2009 02:29AM

Dave! wrote: »

Being old shouldn't give you immunity from the law. He either committed a crime or he didn't, just like the old priests who buggered altar boys in the 80's (and beyond). If there's reason to believe he's guilty, try him. If he was coerced into doing what he did, then he'll probably be found innocent. I'm sure the facts will come out during the trial.

Priests didn't or don't molest children upon pain of death.

No-one can really state a conclusive argument until the entire facts are known.

You have people who say he should pay for his crimes, and those that say he was only doing what was necessary to survive. For all we know, his only crime was working under threat of execution, but at the same time, equally he could have been a sadistic or brutal guard of which there were no shortages, even amongst recruited or forced ones, and evidence of this could come to trial.

There's just no point arguing hypothetical situations and guilt when no-one here has the faintest idea as to the intricate circumstances in which he was a camp guard yet. All we know is that he was a forced guard, that alone doesn't absolve him.

brendansmith · 01-12-2009 02:53AM

Arab justice ftw

indough · 01-12-2009 02:57AM

how can he have committed a crime if he was forced into it for fear of death?

what would have he achieved by dieing rather than doing what they told him? the same number of people would have died + 1

even if he had done it under different circumstances theres no way hes the same man he was back then, plus hes had to live with the guilt all his life, plus hes already been tried for it

Mahatma coat · 01-12-2009 04:51AM

the man has already been tried and Acquitted in Israel, he also had to spend 7 years in jail before they acquitted him

its truly disgusting what is being done to him again, but hey its either retry him or admit they were wrong and pay him COMPO.

I wonder how many of the posters here calling for 'Justice' are members here
www. GIYUS .org

marcsignal · 01-12-2009 06:10AM

smurgen wrote: »

no i don't think so. i've been thinking about a line Robert Fisk said at the UCC Law Society annual conference lately and it's got me thinking : "show me the winners of a war and i'll show you the war criminals".plenty of war criminals around the world who aren't in persuit with the same rigour as the nazis and they're associates just because they happened to be on the winning side

+1

post of the thread imo

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Rented Mule · 01-12-2009 06:19AM

If Hitler was alive today, he should be let free because of his age.

Obviously, he would now know that what he did was just the folly of youth.

marcsignal · 01-12-2009 06:36AM

Rented Mule wrote: »

If Hitler was alive today, he should be let free because of his age.

Obviously, he would now know that what he did was just the folly of youth.

There's only one small difference, nobody had a gun in Hitlers back..

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Seloth · 01-12-2009 08:46AM

MikeC101 wrote: »

Eh....am I losing it, or are you arguing with someone who has said the exact same thing you did?

Yeah I think I'm a bit lost mself tbh with his reply:rolleyes:

This is why I love the internet,People read three words from every 12:D

Joey the lips · 01-12-2009 08:54AM

Go to trial.

Padraig Mor · 01-12-2009 09:50AM

Someone sure has a hard on for this guy!

First he was jailed in Israel for seven years on the evidence of a load of 'witnesses' who lied that he was 'Ivan the terrible' at Treblinka. Having being acquitted on the grounds that he actually wasn't Ivan the Terrible, this poor old guy is now being hounded for having played a very minor role in Sobibor - a role junior to Germans who were acquitted decades ago. Nice to see the Simon Wiesenthal Centre living up to their usual standards as well...

minidazzler · 01-12-2009 09:59AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Someone sure has a hard on for this guy!

First he was jailed in Israel for seven years on the evidence of a load of 'witnesses' who lied that he was 'Ivan the terrible' at Treblinka. Having being acquitted on the grounds that he actually wasn't Ivan the Terrible, this poor old guy is now being hounded for having played a very minor role in Sobibor - a role junior to Germans who were acquitted decades ago. Nice to see the Simon Wiesenthal Centre living up to their usual standards as well...

To be fair, this is the last time the jews will be allowed do such injustices on behalf of the holocaust. They have to make a show of him.

The way I see it, they couldn't keep him in jail the first time for all they lied, so I wouldn't trust them this time. I hate the nazi's, I deplore them, but this man was no Nazi.

sock puppet · 01-12-2009 10:46AM

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the man has already been tried and Acquitted in Israel, he also had to spend 7 years in jail before they acquitted him

its truly disgusting what is being done to him again, but hey its either retry him or admit they were wrong and pay him COMPO.

I wonder how many of the posters here calling for 'Justice' are members here
www. GIYUS .org

And the anti-Semites come out of the woodwork.

minidazzler · 01-12-2009 10:55AM

sock puppet wrote: »

And the anti-Semites come out of the woodwork.

And the Israeli Defenders come out again.

See how that can be turned on it's ass? Just because someone doesn't agree with Israel's practices DOES NOT make them Anti-Semite.

philologos · 01-12-2009 11:06AM

ChewChew wrote: »

I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.

Point is he had no choice. His autonomy was limited, and therefore it is unreasonable to assess him on his actions without taking this into consideration.

I'm generally supportive of the existence of the Israeli state with the exception of how they are dealing with Palestinian rights in a lot of cases, but people have to understand 1) the circumstances of his acts, and 2) his age.

ScumLord · 01-12-2009 11:39AM

minidazzler wrote: »

To be fair, this is the last time the jews will be allowed do such injustices on behalf of the holocaust. They have to make a show of him.

I blame inglorious bastards it's having the same effect Rocky had on the Italians in America.

InReality · 01-12-2009 01:37PM

They have a nazi/ss id card for him AFAIK.

So he's not an innocent soviet guard.

In any case people accused of this stuff should always stand trial.

minidazzler · 01-12-2009 01:43PM

InReality wrote: »

They have a nazi/ss id card for him AFAIK.

So he's not an innocent soviet guard.

In any case people accused of this stuff should always stand trial.

Eh, those card's aren't exactly Chip and Pin computer Verified.

Accused people should not stand trial. Accused people with substantiated evidence, should definitely stand trial.

But there are other considerations here. Why would you make an 80+ year old man who is confined to a wheelchair and apparently not very aware stand trial?

It's a show really, they want their pound of flesh and they don't care if the evidence (that we see) is flimsy at best.

I think he is probably guilty, but people will naturally follow orders, and what he did was to save his own life.

I am not condoning anything he did, but you must take in 65 years after and the fact he is going to die soon more than likely, and wonder WHY they are putting him on trial?

Is it for Justice, or is it for a show? The last Nobel cause of the people of Israel for victims of the Holocaust?

partyatmygaff · 01-12-2009 01:46PM

Seloth wrote: »

Yeah I think I'm a bit lost mself tbh with his reply:rolleyes:

This is why I love the internet,People read three words from every 12:D

MikeC101 wrote: »

Eh....am I losing it, or are you arguing with someone who has said the exact same thing you did?

Then you obviously didn't read the post I was replying to. He said

Look in all fairness if he was an actualy Nazi Officer...Heck maybe even pushing it if he were a soldier there then yes the trial should go ahead...but he wasnt,he was a Soviet,Not a Nazi!,He was forced into it and most likely did it as he feared he would be treated as they were....I cna hardly believe that this man would have done this willingly.

Did you read this part even? I am not disagreeing with his opinion about the thread, I was just pointing out that a Russian POW would never have become a Wehrmacht Nazi Soldier let alone an officer. For those who do not know, an officer is of far higher authority and rank than a soldier. That is akin to saying today that Iraqi insurgent POW is now a 2nd Lieutenant in the US Marine corps, maybe even pushing that he may have been a private. See what I mean? I agree with his point but there is no way this man would ever be called a Wehrmacht Nazi soldier let alone an officer.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Nazi Officer??? You do know the officers are of much higher authority and are far more responsible.

How the hell would an enemy POW even become a nazi soldier let alone an officer. He was a soviet soldier captured and forced to work as a prison guard kind of like the jews forced to become sonderkommandos, he was no nazi, he was forced to cooperate with the Nazis and no more than that.

Dartz · 01-12-2009 02:00PM

No... If I read this right, he was a Red Army POW who was basically told "Stand Guard over them, or join them".

That's not exactly a fair choice now, is it. He's either a war criminal, or a dead man. All he did was what he had to do to stay alive....

You can't blame a human being for that. Be a concentration camp guard, or die? What the hell sort of choice is that? That's no choice whatsover. How can somebody be responsible for their actions when placed in a situation like that? You can't say a man should've killed himself rather than be involved... that's arrogant and disgusting and more than a little hypocritical.

I guarantee 99% of people here saying he should hang.... ifgiven the choice between stoking the ovens at Auschwitz, or being burned in them, would say "Where's the shovel?"

It's the plank of Carnaedes. 2 men survive a shipwreck, and find a plank floating in the sea. The plank is only big enough to support one man. So one man kills the other to save himself. Is this man guilty of murder?

InReality · 01-12-2009 02:01PM

If there is no evidence then it will come out at the trial.

Loads of people who should have gone on trial never did.

Thats no reason to let this guy off , nor is that he's 90 , infirm etc.
If it was regular murder case etc there might be a case.

Of course there is probably some politics or something around why he's on trial but again that not a reason to let him off.

BTW I'm strongly against all those israeli blogger groups and the israeli
propaganda machine.
Holocaust should be treated seperately from israeli stuff today.

marcsignal · 01-12-2009 02:20PM

As someone mentioned earlier, where does all this place the Sonderkommando in their dilemma ? They were responsible for helping prisoners undress for the Gas Chamber, and recieved extra food alcohol and cigarettes for doing this work. A graphic depiction of their role can be seen in the movie "The Grey Zone", but the question is, technically, were they also complicit in these crimes??

If anyones unclear about what working in the Sonderkommando entailed,
just forward the clip below to 6:10...NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95kMNsk9km0

well ? were they any less guilty than Demjanjuk ?

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MikeC101 · 01-12-2009 03:37PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Then you obviously didn't read the post I was replying to. He said

Did you read this part even?

Look in all fairness if he was an actualy Nazi Officer...Heck maybe even pushing it if he were a soldier there then yes the trial should go ahead...but he wasnt,he was a Soviet,Not a Nazi!,He was forced into it and most likely did it as he feared he would be treated as they were....I cna hardly believe that this man would have done this willingly.

Did you just ignore the "IF" both times?

He said IF he was a Nazi officer, or even a soldier, THEN there would be a case for trial. Then he said "BUT he wasn't."

He didn't in any way say or imply that he was an officer, in fact he stated the exact opposite.

marcsignal · 01-12-2009 03:50PM

With all this talk of war crimes trials and meting out justice, it's a shame the Kenyans don't have a powerful lobby group to go hunting down these guys for what they did to the Mau Mau rebels.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6557344.ece

Mau Mau rebel recalls nine years of 'British torture' in detention camp

Leaning on a wooden cane and gazing into the distance, Wambugu Nyingi, 84, recalled his nine years of misery in British-run detention camps. “I was arrested on December 24, 1952, and taken to a concentration camp. They would beat my fingers with sticks. The worst time was when I was whipped,” he said, showing scars on his back.

“They [the British] wanted me to say that I would not continue fighting for my freedom.”

Mr Nyingi said that the British officers were free to torture detainees. The beatings were so severe that some victims died. “Every day was meant for our punishment.” Asked why he survived, he said: “I was beaten enough to die but God prevented it.

“I feel that I lost a great deal during my time in detention. I seek justice. We will be happy if the British Government admits they did these atrocities to the Mau Mau people. If they pay us compensation perhaps that will help us for the few years that are remaining.”

I wonder how many British guards are going to be dragged up before the international courts over this?? and it was only in the 1950's so there should be at least a few still alive.

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Former Concentration Camp guard, 89 years old and under trial

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