Former Concentration Camp guard, 89 years old and under trial

partyatmygaff

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20091130/tts-uk-germany-demjanjuk-ca02f96.html

The trial of John Demjanjuk, an 89-year-old former guard at a Nazi camp, opened on Monday on charges of helping to force 27,900 Jews into gas chambers at Sobibor death camp in 1943.




Demjanjuk, a former U.S. carworker, was pushed in a wheelchair with a headrest before the court at what is likely to be Germany's last big trial from the Nazi era. Wearing a cap and in a reclined position, he was draped in a light-blue blanket.
German state prosecutors accuse Demjanjuk, who was top of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's list of most-wanted war criminals, of assisting in killings at the Sobibor death camp, in what is now Poland, where at least 250,000 Jews were murdered.
He denies he was involved in the Holocaust and his family insists he is too frail to stand trial.
"Justice takes a long time. I am not seeking revenge for Demjanjuk. He should tell the truth," said plaintiff Thomas Blatt, whose family was killed at the camp in 1943 and who at 15 was ordered to sort out belongings of Jews sent to be gassed.
"Today is important because it is the last big international case that everyone is interested in."
Demjanjuk was fairly motionless at the packed proceedings, his mouth occasionally dropped open. He was pale and his eyes were closed most of the time. He showed no expression and it was impossible to tell if he was aware of what was being said.
"Demjanjuk put on a great act," said Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Israel Office. "He should have gone to Hollywood, not Sobibor."
Demjanjuk's son said his father had been in hospital for five days in the last week to undergo tests and had a blood transfusion due to a bone marrow disease. The medical officer charged with assessing Demjanjuk said he was fit for trial.
Due to his weak condition, hearings will be restricted to two 90-minute sessions a day. His lawyer, Guenther Maull, said he was in pain and suffered from periods of mental absence.
Demjanjuk, who was born in Ukraine and fought in the Red Army before being captured by the Nazis and recruited as a camp guard, was extradited in May from the United States where he had lived in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio.
He emigrated to the United States in 1951, becoming a naturalised citizen in 1958, and worked in the auto industry.
RED ARMY PRISONER
Another defence lawyer Ulrich Busch argued the foundation of the trial was flawed and it should be called off as Nazis in more senior positions and collaborators had not been convicted.
Busch said that to save his life a Trawniki (a Red Army prisoner recruited by the SS for death camps) had to cooperate.
"This Trawniki (Demjanjuk), nobody knew what he did, for him to be deported or even imported 7,000 kilometres while others are left untouched, what is the reason for this?"
The court must decide by Wednesday whether to accept Busch's argument. Meanwhile, the judge decided the trial, which is expected to last until May, would continue.
If all goes to plan, the prosecution will read the charges Monday and Demjanjuk, who could be sentenced to spend the rest of his life behind bars, will have the chance to respond. Prosecutors plan to show the court documents, including an identity card, which they say prove he was at Sobibor and they will call about 20 witnesses.
"Mr Blatt (a plaintiff) isn't doing this out of revenge or to be compensated," said his lawyer Stefan Schuenemann, adding:
"Mr Blatt thinks that after such a long time it is too late for atonement ... It is important for him that the story of Sobibor ... is today given a platform so that he can describe the terrible murders that were carried out in this extermination camp 66 years ago."
While the case has attracted enormous global interest, many Germans would prefer to draw a line under the Nazi past and focus on a Germany's new-found role on the world stage.
Although he has acknowledged being at other camps, Demjanjuk has denied he was in Sobibor, which prosecutors say was run by 20-30 Nazi SS members and up to 150 former Soviet war prisoners.
Demjanjuk was extradited from the United States to Israel in 1986, accused of being "Ivan the Terrible," a notoriously sadistic guard at the Treblinka death camp. He was sentenced to death in 1988 but his conviction was overturned when new evidence showed another man was probably "Ivan."
In the Sobibor gas chambers, Jews died in 20 to 30 minutes after inhaling a toxic mix of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, say prosecutors, who argue that Demjanjuk was at the camp for about six months in 1943

I understand that the man whose family was killed by the Nazis want Justice but this man was a soviet soldier forced to be a camp guard or face death. The Jewish prisoners would have still died if he refused and got himself shot by the Germans so I am undecided really whether or not this man deserves to be under trial at this age, he can hardly manage to sit trial, how could he manage imprisonment?

So well do you think he should sit trial or should he be let live out the remainder of his life without the stress of a trial.

orourkeda

Of course. Nobody should be above the law.

Long Onion

Send him for a shower.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fair trial today, hang him tomorrow.

It's a hard one to call alright. Personally I think that he should be left be given that it's not as if he was on the front lines demanding that the Jew be exterminated but rather a bloke doing his job. Had he refused to do as he was told he too would have been killed. Surely having to live with what he did for the past 60 years and now being named and shamed is punishment enough.

Biggins

Absolutely.

flanzer

Absolutely, he should be put to trial. Same goes for the dirty old priests named in those Diocesan reports.

No one should be allowed to get away with such horrors, regardless of their age

papajimsmooth

Cool, so what age does the law stop applying?

minidazzler

TBH I say No. It's a Token Effort at best. It will serve no real purpose.

He is a different man by now, while I believe noone is above the law, 65 years is a long time. He is not the Boy who carried out these attrocities anymore.

If he holds the same views fair enough, but the chances of that are quite low.

ibarelycare

So many nazi related threads today!

My name is URL

Crimes against humanity are being committed today by the world's biggest armies and nobody threatens them with trials and punishment

but yes, he should answer for what he has done

partyatmygaff

Do people realize he was a captured soviet soldier who HAD to be a prison guard or be shot?

If he refused and got killed, the same jewish prisoners would have died so considering that many of those who actually were calling the shots escaped justice. He did something wrong but it was either live or die and in the end the jewish prisoners would have died regardless so its not really too fair to punish him considering he is far too old now for any punishment to have an effect.

minidazzler

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Do people realize he was a captured soviet soldier who HAD to be a prison guard or be shot?

If he refused and got killed, the same jewish prisoners would have died so considering that many of those who actually were calling the shots escaped justice. He did something wrong but it was either live or die and in the end the jewish prisoners would have died regardless so its not really too fair to punish him considering he is far too old now for any punishment to have an effect.

True, it would be understandable to try him if he was actually an officer or an enlisted volunteer, but the fact is he wasn't.

Besides, what will bringing this case to trial prove? What will it do? No matter what everone has made up their mind about this man. His life is already over.

If the Lockerbie bomber can be released on Humanitarian grounds....why not this old man.

MagicMarker

I voted no.

The_Minister

Tbh, I fail to see the point.

Yes, he should have chosen death over butchery, but I find it hard to equate the man who committed these crimes with the man three times older and in a wheelchair.

Just let it go.

arybvtcw0eolkf

ibarelycare wrote: »

So many nazi related threads today!

You should check out HELPDESK and see whats posted about Moderators!.

Sea Sharp

He should get a quick trial and then be under house arrest for his remaining years. His assistance in those crimes need to be acknowledged, but c'mon he's an old old man and had he refused to do his job back then he might have been killed by other Nazis.

My name is URL

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

He should get a quick trial and then be under house arrest for his remaining years. His assistance in those crimes need to be acknowledged, but c'mon he's an old old man and had he refused to do his job back then he might have been killed by other Nazis.

Sure for all we know the verdict will be in his favour. I honestly think that he's better off having a fair trial so that he doesn't die with the unanswered burden of what happened in his past

It'll be closure for him one way or another

Pompey Magnus

I wonder how many of the people who think he should face trial would honestly be able to say they would have acted differently if they were in his position and that they are certain that they would choose excution instead of carrying out a gruesome task such as this?

PirateShampoo

Hard to call, if he didnt do what he was told he would be the one with the bullet to the head.

Its easy to judge now looking back, but put anyone of us in that positionand who knows, we cant honestly say they wouldnt do the same.

If he didnt pull the trigger then someone else would of.

ScumLord

Trial is probably the best way to work it out one way or the other. I don't think anything can be done to him anyway, from what I heard the evidence isn't really enough to convict him of anything.

minidazzler

ScumLord wrote: »

Trial is probably the best way to work it out one way or the other. I don't think anything can be done to him anyway, from what I heard the evidence isn't really enough to convict him of anything.

He was already convicted once of being someone he's not.

In the case of Nazi's it's guilty until "proven" guilty.

partyatmygaff

Would anyone here either

1. Refuse to be a prison guard and die and no difference will occur to those who are going to die regardless.
2. Be a prison guard and survive, for all he knew the day he agreed to be a guard could be the day of liberation, It didn't happen of course and he did what was forced on him to do. What good would have occured to the people in the camps if he chose to die instead of becoming a guard? Not much, those who were going to be killed were going to be killed.

Sheepy99

Feed him faeces.

SEPT 23 1989

Time to move on

RMD

I wouldn't hold him fully responsible for the deaths, it was either he died and someone else carried out the tasks or he lived and carried out the tasks himself. I'd say he's disgusted enough knowing what he's done in his past.

If it's evident though he's not remorseful for his acts, then give the ****er the chair.

mconigol

utterly pointless show trial in my opinion, there's an interesting article on wikipedia about the Nuremberg Defnese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense. According to wiki Nuremberg Principle IV states:

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

I doubt that a moral choice was in fact possible to him as he would probably have been executed himself had he exercised such a choice however is seems that this defence rarely suceeds. It seems like a complex area but I still fail to see what this trial hopes to achieve. Would it not be better to concentrate attention on more recent attrocites rather than going after the head of a soldier who himself was probably caught up in an inescapable situation? I'm not a WWII buff but wasn't the existance of these concentration camps know by the allies at the time? Would it not equally be right to prosecute those who failed to act? Again pointless in my opinion but still just as valid an argument...It's a pity the lessons of the past are not being learned and applied to the present...

McArmalite

The fella seems like a wannabe hero to me.

sock puppet

The funny thing is though that had he not been a prison guard and committed no crimes, the Russians would have sent him to his death for being a traitor.

PirateShampoo

McArmalite wrote: »

The fella seems like a wannabe hero to me.

Really. how so. Share with us your Perls of wisdom.

I think its more of a case of someone wanting to die with a clean conscience.

Riddle101

I don't think he should be put under trial. If he was being given a choice between life or death, it's fairly understandable if he chose life. Anyway he's 89 years old, I don't think he's worth it tbh.

Lollipops23

If someone wins the Nobel Peace Prize at 30 years old,we don't take it away from them when they hit 80. That's because they are the same person they were then.

Same applies for people guilty of attrocities when they were young. There's no reason he shoudln't be put on trial,he's as guilty now as he was then.

Lollipops23

Riddle101 wrote: »

] Anyway he's 89 years old, I don't think he's worth it tbh.

The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.

bigeasyeah

Will it change anything either way? No.

Ann22

I couldn't care less how old any of them are. They should all be held accountable:mad:..In saying that, I'd like to know if he was a enthusiastic and cruel guard..one of the ones who beat the prisoners and humiliated them.

Some say, 'sure he'd've been shot himself if he didn't do it'......I know it's easy to say when you're not in the situation but I'd rather be shot than stand there day after day sending thousands of souls to their deaths, the little children in particular, Jesus!:(

Stercus Accidit

orourkeda wrote: »

Of course. Nobody should be above the law.

papajimsmooth wrote: »

Cool, so what age does the law stop applying?

What he did wasn't against the law at the time, not doing what he was told was, and was punishable by death.

Get a clue would ye, this man had no choice and its appalling that german national guilt is now what is punishing him, he is a victim of the bloody germans also remember.

marcsignal

Talking about background to the trial here, for anyone interested in further details.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055562310&page=3

Stercus Accidit

Lollipops23 wrote: »

The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.

Yeah they would, heads filled with thoughts of vengeance, jail the conscript forced to comply with the germans under threat of death.

This is a farce.

The man is a vegetable according to the article.

sock puppet

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

What he did wasn't against the law at the time, not doing what he was told was, and was punishable by death.

Get a clue would ye, this man had no choice and its appalling that german national guilt is now what is punishing him, he is a victim of the bloody germans also remember.

Men were executued at the Nuremberg and Dachau trials, and neither of the defences you named were accepted.

edit: I'm not sure how low ranking the men tried were though.

b12mearse

the man shouldnt stand trial. he was following orders. why are they bringing up the past. it was over 60 years ago.
whats done is done.

Zillah

Assuming he is guilty:

Have a speedy trial, give him a suspended sentence and send him home to probably die very soon. Justice symbolically upheld, feeble old man not sent to prison for brief stay before death.

scruff321

Without knowing all the facts its hard to really judge, but from what i gather he was a pow who was given the choice between been a prison guard or death, its human instinct to survive, sure the Sonderkommando were nearly all Jews forced to help in the Nazis. I say no.

Sheepy99

Feed him faeces.

Bigdeadlydave

I say let him go. After all you often hear tales of how certain guards helped the inmates, maybe he was one of them?

shqipshume

Ann22 wrote: »

I couldn't care less how old any of them are. They should all be held accountable:mad:..In saying that, I'd like to know if he was a enthusiastic and cruel guard..one of the ones who beat the prisoners and humiliated them.

Some say, 'sure he'd've been shot himself if he didn't do it'......I know it's easy to say when you're not in the situation but I'd rather be shot than stand there day after day sending thousands of souls to their deaths, the little children in particular, Jesus!:(

You forget he had family to i am sure.

Although i would say leaving and hiding out would have been an option he should have took if he didn't want to be apart of it.

MagicMarker

Lollipops23 wrote: »

The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.

Did anyone turn up?

ChewChew

I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.

MagicMarker

ChewChew wrote: »

I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.

Unless it's proved otherwise, he never murdered anyone. To say so is stupid.

ChewChew

MagicMarker wrote: »

Unless it's proved otherwise, he never murdered anyone. To say so is stupid.

So the people who were brought into an EXTERMINATION camp were not murdered?

Prof.Badass

Godwin's law from the very first post. Now I have seen it all .

MagicMarker

ChewChew wrote: »

So the people who were brought into an EXTERMINATION camp were not murdered?

Did I say that?