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Former Concentration Camp guard, 89 years old and under trial

245

Comments

  • #32
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    If someone wins the Nobel Peace Prize at 30 years old,we don't take it away from them when they hit 80. That's because they are the same person they were then.

    Same applies for people guilty of attrocities when they were young. There's no reason he shoudln't be put on trial,he's as guilty now as he was then.


  • #33
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    ] Anyway he's 89 years old, I don't think he's worth it tbh.

    The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.


  • #34
    bigeasyeah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,290 ✭✭✭bigeasyeah


    Will it change anything either way? No.


  • #35
    Ann22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,006 ✭✭✭Ann22


    I couldn't care less how old any of them are. They should all be held accountable:mad:..In saying that, I'd like to know if he was a enthusiastic and cruel guard..one of the ones who beat the prisoners and humiliated them.

    Some say, 'sure he'd've been shot himself if he didn't do it'......I know it's easy to say when you're not in the situation but I'd rather be shot than stand there day after day sending thousands of souls to their deaths, the little children in particular, Jesus!:(


  • #36
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Of course. Nobody should be above the law.
    papajimsmooth wrote: »
    Cool, so what age does the law stop applying?

    What he did wasn't against the law at the time, not doing what he was told was, and was punishable by death.

    Get a clue would ye, this man had no choice and its appalling that german national guilt is now what is punishing him, he is a victim of the bloody germans also remember.


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  • #37
    marcsignal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Talking about background to the trial here, for anyone interested in further details.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055562310&page=3


  • #38
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.

    Yeah they would, heads filled with thoughts of vengeance, jail the conscript forced to comply with the germans under threat of death.

    This is a farce.

    The man is a vegetable according to the article.


  • #39
    sock puppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    What he did wasn't against the law at the time, not doing what he was told was, and was punishable by death.

    Get a clue would ye, this man had no choice and its appalling that german national guilt is now what is punishing him, he is a victim of the bloody germans also remember.

    Men were executued at the Nuremberg and Dachau trials, and neither of the defences you named were accepted.

    edit: I'm not sure how low ranking the men tried were though.


  • #40
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    the man shouldnt stand trial. he was following orders. why are they bringing up the past. it was over 60 years ago.
    whats done is done.


  • #41
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Assuming he is guilty:

    Have a speedy trial, give him a suspended sentence and send him home to probably die very soon. Justice symbolically upheld, feeble old man not sent to prison for brief stay before death.


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  • #42
    scruff321
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭scruff321


    Without knowing all the facts its hard to really judge, but from what i gather he was a pow who was given the choice between been a prison guard or death, its human instinct to survive, sure the Sonderkommando were nearly all Jews forced to help in the Nazis. I say no.


  • #43
    Sheepy99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭Sheepy99


    Feed him faeces.


  • #44
    Bigdeadlydave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Bigdeadlydave


    I say let him go. After all you often hear tales of how certain guards helped the inmates, maybe he was one of them?


  • #45
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Ann22 wrote: »
    I couldn't care less how old any of them are. They should all be held accountable:mad:..In saying that, I'd like to know if he was a enthusiastic and cruel guard..one of the ones who beat the prisoners and humiliated them.

    Some say, 'sure he'd've been shot himself if he didn't do it'......I know it's easy to say when you're not in the situation but I'd rather be shot than stand there day after day sending thousands of souls to their deaths, the little children in particular, Jesus!:(


    You forget he had family to i am sure.

    Although i would say leaving and hiding out would have been an option he should have took if he didn't want to be apart of it.


  • #46
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    The people who showed up at the trial with the numbered tattoos on their arms may disagree.
    Did anyone turn up?


  • #47
    ChewChew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,367 ✭✭✭✭ChewChew


    I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.


  • #48
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    ChewChew wrote: »
    I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.
    Unless it's proved otherwise, he never murdered anyone. To say so is stupid.


  • #49
    ChewChew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,367 ✭✭✭✭ChewChew


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Unless it's proved otherwise, he never murdered anyone. To say so is stupid.

    So the people who were brought into an EXTERMINATION camp were not murdered?


  • #50
    Prof.Badass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Prof.Badass


    Godwin's law from the very first post. Now I have seen it all :D.


  • #51
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    ChewChew wrote: »
    So the people who were brought into an EXTERMINATION camp were not murdered?
    Did I say that?


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  • #52
    ChewChew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,367 ✭✭✭✭ChewChew


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Did I say that?
    Nope, hence the question mark(?)!!!


  • #53
    Notorious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭Notorious


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    So well do you think he should sit trial or should he be let live out the remainder of his life without the stress of a trial.

    I think that it's criminal that this 89 year old is put on trial for "helping to force 27,900 Jews into gas chambers". One of the prosecutors said something along the lines of "we have to make sure something like the holocaust doesn't happen again". What is putting a frail elderly man, who did his 'job' at the time because he had very little choice in the matter, going to do to to prevent the happening of another holocaust?
    Lollipops23 wrote:
    There's no reason he shoudln't be put on trial,he's as guilty now as he was then.

    In all fairness though, this man is only guilty of doing his job. If he refused to work as a guard he would've been executed. I think most people, in this situation, would've taken the prison guard option.

    What puzzles me is that he's denying that he was ever there. That's a bit insulting to the families of the victims. Seems like the odds are stacked against himself with that defence.


  • #54
    sunnyjim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭sunnyjim


    Ahem.

    He was soldier from the Soviet side of the conflict who was captured by the Germans, and was told to start taking part in these exterminations or be shot in the head.

    Just because he 'took part' in the exterminations, doesn't mean he pulled any triggers.

    Either way, don't judge a man til you've walked in his shoes. We're living in the most comfortable era in the history of mankind; this man lived through a childhood of poverty (no Barnardos back then), a viscious conflict in the Soviet forces where men were sent forward at the germans (knowing that barrier troops behind them would shoot them pour encourager les autres, should they retreat) and was then offered a bullet in the head from the germans or do their bidding.

    So lets all answer from behind our shiny laptops, in our 25oC heated houses, facing only a headcold or flu, knowing that we'll probably be driving to work tomorrow, facing little more than some relatively easy work compared to... I dont know, watching hundreds of people being killed on front of you.
    ChewChew wrote: »
    I was in Germany the weekend before last and went to Dachau. Tbh, this man deserves to be on trial. He, whether he wished to or not, murdered innocent people because of their religious beliefs. Their sexuality. Their nationality. And many, many more reasons. Being there and knowing what went on was very difficult and hard to comprehend so yes, let him feel the hand of 'justice'. No matter what the result, he will never suffer like those thousands and thousands and thousands of innocent human beings.

    Being there knowing that the only other alternative is being shot in the head? This only after he's been partly through a terrible war that ended with 17 million Russians dying in the conflict.


  • #55
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    ChewChew wrote: »
    So the people who were brought into an EXTERMINATION camp were not murdered?
    I can pull any old german man off the street and call him a prison guard. Innocent until proven guilty.
    To ChewChew don't be so closed minded about it, Would you rather die knowing full well the prisoners of the camp were going to die regardless or would you survive and live out the remainder of your life and see your family once more. For this man it was cooperate or die, Its easy to say here in 2009 behind a computer that this man should have refused to cooperate and should have died but put yourself in his position.

    Your a young man not much older than a teenager and you find yourself captured by the enemy. The enemy offer you two choices, cooperate and live with the hope that soon your allies will liberate the camp and you will see your family and friends once more or lose your life for nothing. The prisoners who were going to die were going to die regardless of whether he lived or not. Its not fair to judge him on something like that after all these years. He is no more than a vegetable now, if he is guilty so be it he should be given a suspended sentence and allowed to live whats left of his while in peace. I have doubts that a Russian POW held Nazi views, he was cooperating for his life damn it.


  • #56
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Notorious wrote: »
    What puzzles me is that he's denying that he was ever there. That's a bit insulting to the families of the victims. Seems like the odds are stacked against himself with that defence.
    What if he truly never was there? Its either that or he doesn't want to remember it.

    I doubt any man would forget war, it lives with people.


  • #57
    MikeC101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Notorious wrote: »
    What puzzles me is that he's denying that he was ever there. That's a bit insulting to the families of the victims. Seems like the odds are stacked against himself with that defence.

    "His conviction for crimes against humanity was later overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993 due to a finding of reasonable doubt based on evidence suggesting that Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" and had, in fact, been a guard at camps besides the one at Treblinka"
    (from Wikipedia)

    So there seems to be reasonable doubt that he was actually there - enough for the Israeli Supreme Court anyway.

    Has new evidence come to light, or why is this trial coming up again a couple of decades later?


  • #58
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    ChewChew wrote: »
    Nope, hence the question mark(?)!!!
    Well, in that case, yes they were murdered. I'm sure you're trying to make a point here, so please continue.


  • #59
    ChewChew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,367 ✭✭✭✭ChewChew


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Well, in that case, yes they were murdered. I'm sure you're trying to make a point here, so please continue.
    No point Dude. I have my opinions. I'm sticking to them.


  • #60
    Notorious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭Notorious


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    What if he truly never was there? Its either that or he doesn't want to remember it.

    I doubt any man would forget war, it lives with people.

    Didn't they find an SS card bearing his name and linking him to the camp? It could be a case of mistaken identity though.

    Fair point though.


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  • #61
    Dozen Wicked Words
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Dozen Wicked Words


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    "His conviction for crimes against humanity was later overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court in 1993 due to a finding of reasonable doubt based on evidence suggesting that Demjanjuk was not "Ivan the Terrible" and had, in fact, been a guard at camps besides the one at Treblinka"
    (from Wikipedia)

    So there seems to be reasonable doubt that he was actually there - enough for the Israeli Supreme Court anyway.

    Has new evidence come to light, or why is this trial coming up again a couple of decades later?

    Different Camp this time. Sobibor, a Polish Camp.


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