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Will you still go to mass on sunday?

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    #632
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    As for condra....
    Sorry, but you're still missing the point, unfortunately.


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    #633
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    dvpower wrote: »
    All praise the two headed elephant

    Wowzer!

    NOW, 2-headed-elephant-non-believers... What more proof do you need?

    It's right there.. in the photograph.. see??


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    #634
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    dvpower wrote: »
    That was just a ploy by the FSM. If you have true faith in the FSM, you will realise that Bobby Henderson didn't make him up; he was working through Bobby Henderson. He did this so that only committed believers would get to know his noodly goodness. Apparently, the FSM works in mysterious ways.
    Yeah whatever man :rolleyes:
    condra wrote: »
    Sorry, but you're still missing the point, unfortunately.
    To be honest, this has gone off topic again for the 5th, 6th maybe 7th time. I don't really want to get the point of your post anymore. Too tired to try even.


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    #635
    mink_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭mink_man


    meh!


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    #636
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Damn it looks like I missed out on some fun in boards yesterday..

    Ok,
    partyatmygaff

    CASE:1
    Consider the following two possibilites.
    a) An ant lives in my house.
    b) An ant doesn't live in my house.

    Proof of (a) would merely requiring finding the physical body of the ant and examining it to make sure it wasn't a fraud.

    Proof of (b)...would merely require me to finecomb every single planck length of the house and show beyond doubt that there is no ant there - not really a practical proof is it?

    CASE 2
    Conside the following the two possibilites.
    a) An ant lives outside my house but I can only search inside it.
    b) An ant doesn't live outside my house but I can only search inside it.


    (a): Proof is impossible but I believe there is an ant outside there - It's up to others to prove to me there is no ant outside the house.
    (b): If There is no ant outside the house so why on earth should I waste my time proving there isn't one. Especially when such a proof has been defined as inherently impossible?.

    Replace "ant" with God, "house" with "Cosmos" and you should get the point.
    Requiring the non-existence proof of something non existent is illogical and impractical.



    Case 1 assumes proof of God is attainable under the laws of science (something theists say is not true)
    Case 2 assumes proof of God is currently unattainable under the laws of science.

    In both Cases, proof of the God's lack of existence is silly and a waste of time. Theists need to prove his existence.

    Using the Court of Law analogy for Christians (most other religions follow a similar pattern).
    Christians make the claim that all humans are going to face a final judgement.
    All Humans are inherently guilty.
    So in the court of law, it is up to the Christians to prove their claims of us being inherently guilty. The idea of the non Christian having to prove their innocence is injustice and, more so, stupidity.


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    #637
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    condra wrote: »
    Care to share with us your "experiences of God" ?

    I've never had any myself.
    I've had quite a few, it feels bizarre now. I'm not alone though, there are many atheists, some of them former preachers/ministers/priests who have had such experiences. Reading about their harrowing journeys out of faith is intriguing.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's all interrelated, in the narrative of my coming to faith. To explain it clearly I'd have to explain it all. It's not really something I intend to do on this thread :)

    Jakkass, already made it clear before that it was during a difficult period in his life that he found God and God helped him become a better person because of it.
    Many of us have been there.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The church as a whole is not to blame, its the MEMBERS of the church who were involved who are to blame. I have said that exact same sentence more than 50 times throughout this thread.
    Of Course, I'm not blaming the entire church, I made my position very clear here.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Scientific method applies to the HOW part of life. It does not apply to the WHY part of life.

    So what has religion actually explained about the "why"?
    I think it has just lead us astray to irrational beliefs (e.g Sun is a God. Demons cause diseases.) and pseudoscience.
    All that being said Catholicism is one of the more present day likeable religions.


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    #638
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Passed by the local Catholic Church on the way to my own church, seemed as packed as usual judging by the car park.


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    #639
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Passed by the local Catholic Church on the way to my own church, seemed as packed as usual judging by the car park.

    Yep, our local drew about the same crowd. Imo, anyone who suggested there would be lower numbers was been myopic. Felt sorry for the PP having to apologise for something he would never condone.:(


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    #640
    Bob_Harris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    God is not real

    Religious people are stupid

    /thread


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    #641
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Bob_Harris wrote: »
    God is not real

    Religious people are stupid

    /thread

    So all these people are stupid then, yeah?


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    #642
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    They are collectively of inferior intelligence and education to Bob Harris because he has a different opinion to them.

    :rolleyes:



    BTW, can no one please direct anything towards me in this thread, I have an exam tomorrow and I don't have the time to answer.


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    #643
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Bob_Harris wrote: »
    God is not real

    Religious people are stupid

    /thread

    That's great, now back it up
    /thread


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    #644
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They are collectively of inferior intelligence and education to Bob Harris because he has a different opinion to them.

    Opinion?

    The opinion that you know beyond doubt, without evidence and without logic or any kind of precedent, that the world was made by a magic god, who's divine word just happens to be a book written by men, and that all others should obey this book and throughout history try to impose the ludicrous ramblings of your magic book over anothers magic book often through bloody genocide and war, and that this is a good thing.

    That's a different opinion?

    As an opinion its frankly completely retarded, where you got the idea that your opinion based on this crap was as valid is the next man's is beyond me, likely the same reason religious beliefs are treated with kid gloves in other aspects of life, cultural conditioning.

    And frankly, you're missing a few key steps in the scientific process as a scientist if you take this stuff on board and declare yourself a follower.


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    #645
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Actually, there are studies to show that on average atheists have a higher IQ than theists, I read this in one of Dawkin's books, so don't bother asking me to link to it!
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    There is definite proof for the non-existence of the FSM and your magic elephant, The proof is that for one the FSM is a joke and was created as such.

    The second is that you just created this 2 headed elephant who lives in the sun and the fact that with space exploration and science as it is today, Something as crazy as a 2 headed elephant in the sun would be visible.

    I can't believe I actually just replied to that but anyway.

    You have not disproved anything. Scientific method applies to the HOW part of life. It does not apply to the WHY part of life.

    As you cannot disprove god you cannot claim that god is in peoples imaginations.

    This gave me a chuckle:D


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    #646
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Who says it is without logic, arguments in favour of God in Creation have been made since the Middle Ages.

    Check out this site for how people reconcile their faith in God with modern science.

    Saying something is without logic without looking to how people explain it is just plain absurd.


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    #647
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Actually, there are studies to show that on average atheists have a higher IQ than theists, I read this in one of Dawkin's books, so don't bother asking me to link to it!

    Heavens no, a real book?

    This is an internet forum, links to wikipedia or gtfo! :pac:


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    #648
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Heavens no, a real book?

    Indeed, I prefer non-fiction myself. :D


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    #649
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Jakkass wrote: »

    Saying something is without logic without looking to how people explain it is just plain absurd.

    It is without logic, it is a massive statement of being correct without the least bit of evidence.

    I don't read these tenuous trash websites which attempt to reconcile their faith with science.

    I get the feeling that if this logic works for any religion, it would work for any 'aul rubbish I could come up with myself.

    How do all religions reconcile with each other? Or is only the one you follow, divine truth.


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    #650
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Who says it is without logic, arguments in favour of God in Creation have been made since the Middle Ages.

    Check out this site for how people reconcile their faith in God with modern science.

    Saying something is without logic without looking to how people explain it is just plain absurd.

    Although I like the biologos foundations.
    The arguments made in favour of theism have all but being rebuffed.
    Deism, has a few kettles left boiling but it ultimately boils down to this:

    God, as an entity to believe in, is outside of the rules of logic.
    It's up to someone else to determine whether they believe in him or not.
    In this sense everyone is agnostic, the question is are they agnostic atheist,agnostic theist or agnostic deist?


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    #651
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MagicMarker: In Dawkin's book? How more biased can you get?

    The research on atheists being more intelligent was done by a man who has concluded that women are less intelligent than men, and black people are less intelligent than whites. You have to sit down and ask yourself "do I want to subscribe to that"?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Nyborg

    It's irrelevant anyway, as it has been shown that there is a higher level or educational attainment amongst churchgoers than not in both the USA and Australia.
    In Australia, 23% of Christian church attenders have earned a university or postgraduate degree, whereas the figure for the general population is 13%.
    In the US, religious behavior correlates with education level by 0.487976383, according to raw data from the 2004 General Social Survey, which indicates that 30.7% of those with a graduate degree attend religious services weekly or more, 2.8% higher than those who left school at high school. The group with the highest percentage of “never attending” was that of early school leavers


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    #652
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    If the theists here want their logic to be taken seriously, they could start by explaining why they are atheists to so many other gods.

    We have a lot in common. The atheists just go one god further.


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    #653
    Bob_Harris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    Malty_T wrote: »
    So all these people are stupid then, yeah?

    Yes.


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    #654
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    condra: I'm not an atheist to any concept of God. Atheist means lack of belief in any God, or the lack of theism. When I am regarding other faiths, I am never an atheist as I do not lack theism. Hence, such an argument is flawed.


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    #655
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Jakkass wrote: »
    condra: I'm not an atheist to any concept of God. Atheist means lack of belief in any God, or the lack of theism. When I am regarding other faiths, I am never an atheist as I do not lack theism. Hence, such an argument is flawed.

    The phrasing of the question is flawed.

    Why follow the teachings of one religion over another, or are you just hedging your bets and following one you hope is right. If so, and other religions are fallible, what is actually different about your own?


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    #656
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Jakkass wrote: »
    MagicMarker: In Dawkin's book? How more biased can you get?

    Well, as a scientist it's not a question of bias, he just looks at the facts as they present themselves.

    Anyhow, speak for yourself, there have been times when you have linked to a religious site to back up your own argument against such things as abortion etc.

    As for the level of intelligence in theists/atheists, I can't recall who Dawkin's was referring to tbh, or even which book it was written in! But I'll be sure to look it up some time.


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    #657
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Opinion?

    The opinion that you know beyond doubt, without evidence and without logic or any kind of precedent, that the world was made by a magic god, who's divine word just happens to be a book written by men, and that all others should obey this book and throughout history try to impose the ludicrous ramblings of your magic book over anothers magic book often through bloody genocide and war, and that this is a good thing.

    That's a different opinion?

    As an opinion its frankly completely retarded, where you got the idea that your opinion based on this crap was as valid is the next man's is beyond me, likely the same reason religious beliefs are treated with kid gloves in other aspects of life, cultural conditioning.

    And frankly, you're missing a few key steps in the scientific process as a scientist if you take this stuff on board and declare yourself a follower.
    I have had this thing said to me atleast 20 times throughout this thread, Go look through for the answer I am not typing it out again. Thank you for calling my opinions "frankly completely retarded". From my mind I cannot fathom such an existence has no meaning nor creator. From your mind you cannot fathom such an existence has meaning or creator.

    Neither is retarded, Neither can be proved by science, But only 1 is truly correct. We must choose either one to believe in from our own conclusions. I have chosen mine, I don't call people retarded for their opinions thankfully. Maybe that means something....
    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Actually, there are studies to show that on average atheists have a higher IQ than theists, I read this in one of Dawkin's books, so don't bother asking me to link to it!
    Oh dear.....
    An athiest writes a book about atheism, puts forward "studies" to show that athiests have a higher IQ than theists.

    Biased much?


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    #658
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MagicMarker: Yes it is, he's one of the most outspoken atheists in the world. Of course his selection and his arguments are going to be biased irrespective of whether he is a scientist. The God Delusion is an opinion piece, not a scientific textbook.


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    #659
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Well, as a scientist it's not a question of bias, he just looks at the facts as they present themselves.

    It is a question of bias, Dawkins has an emotional belief (or lack of it) towards a certain idea, meaning that he is inherently going to be biased.


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    #660
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The research on atheists being more intelligent was done by a man who has concluded that women are less intelligent than men, and black people are less intelligent than whites. You have to sit down and ask yourself "do I want to subscribe to that"?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Nyborg
    Are you trying to discredit peer reviewed researched based on the results not being politically correct?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's irrelevant anyway, as it has been shown that there is a higher level or educational attainment amongst churchgoers than not in both the USA and Australia.

    Yes, this is irrelevant to the point that was made :confused:


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    #661
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    I have had this thing said to me atleast 20 times throughout this thread, Go look through for the answer I am not typing it out again. Thank you for calling my opinions "frankly completely retarded". From my mind I cannot fathom such an existence has no meaning nor creator. From your mind you cannot fathom such an existence has meaning or creator.

    Neither is retarded, Neither can be proved by science,

    I thought science explains the 'how'?


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