Referendum to change constitution to secularize state fully

Jaeger 90 · 28-11-2009 09:51PM #1

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

partyatmygaff · 28-11-2009 09:52PM

I can't see this ending well.

Sleepy · 28-11-2009 09:54PM

Definitely in favour of a complete segregation of church and state. Can't see it passing a referendum in Ireland for at least 50 years though (far too many of the ignorant generations of Irish people still alive).

aDeener · 28-11-2009 09:55PM

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

ho ho yes you are, why are you only coming out with it now?

i went to a catholic secondary school, received a brilliant education, had the time of my life. wouldnt have wanted it any other way

Max Power1 · 28-11-2009 09:56PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Definitely in favour of a complete segregation of church and state. Can't see it passing a referendum in Ireland for at least 50 years though (far too many of the ignorant generations of Irish people still alive).

+1

Couldnt agree more tbh. When this generation of older 60+ die off, we may actually get some logical advances in this country. Separation of church and state would be to the forefront of those advances.

themont85 · 28-11-2009 09:57PM

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

There is state funded Protestant schools too...

Why do we stand for it? Because the religous orders were the only ones willing to educate and help the sick for a considerable amount of time. They own a significant amount of land too which the state has benefitted from for decades.

Jaeger 90 · 28-11-2009 10:00PM

themont85 wrote: »

There is state funded Protestant schools too...

Why do we stand for it? Because the religous orders were the only ones willing to educate and help the sick for a considerable amount of time. They own a significant amount of land too which the state has benefitted from for decades.

No NO, Its the peoples land, taken by the church, who were the powers to be back in the day. the state has to pay rent to the church for what really should be public land morally anyway.

How's that benefiting?

jhegarty · 28-11-2009 10:04PM

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools (which will cause terrible segregation in future years) to religious figures in management in public hospitals and of course our world famous blasphemy law.

There needs to be an article that specifically forbids any sort of religious influence on state run operations or public money to go through any religious organization.

I know the church bashing got some steam this week, but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon, I've taught this all my life. Why do we stand for it, I'd imagine an overwhelming majority in favour of this.

Who is going to run the schools now, you ?

(it's not going to be the government , they are broke).

louisa200 · 28-11-2009 10:05PM

I agree.. I think it is disgraceful that my son can only go to a catholic school, there are no other options unless i want to do a round trip of 2 hours and put him in a class of 32 children.. no church should have any say in eductaion. it is subtle indoctrination and they have no place now having anything to do with children atall............
How can an organistation who have abused children for years and years and years still run and influence our childrens education.. my children need to learnt to read and write and do sums, they do not need to be educated in any one specific religion, especially not by the one religion who have abused hundreds if not thousands of children and pretty much got off scot free, they should be removed, the catholic church should not pass guarda clearance and thus should have nothing to do with our childrens education...... never mind actually running the schools and indocrtinating them every day.....

partyatmygaff · 28-11-2009 10:07PM

louisa200 wrote: »

I agree.. I think it is disgraceful that my son can only go to a catholic school, there are no other options unless i want to do a round trip of 2 hours and put him in a class of 32 children.. no church should have any say in eductaion. it is subtle indoctrination and they have no place now having anything to do with children atall............
How can an organistation who have abused children for years and years and years still run and influence our childrens education.. my children need to learnt to read and write and do sums, they do not need to be educated in any one specific religion, especially not by the one religion who have abused hundreds if not thousands of children and pretty much got off scot free, they should be removed, the catholic church should not pass guarda clearance and thus should have nothing to do with our childrens education...... never mind actually running the schools and indocrtinating them every day.....

Post #9 and we are going downhill already.

mikemac · 28-11-2009 10:12PM

Jaeger 90 wrote: »

I believe this country is far from secular, from state funded catholic owned schools

Are you going to apply this to all schools?
There are Protestant schools, I'm picking that example as it was in the news over the last few weeks.
As an another example, if there were Jewish or Muslim schools in Ireland would you target them? If they aren't there now they probably will be some day

philologos · 28-11-2009 10:12PM

I don't think getting rid of ethos based education is going to be the great thing that everyone thinks it will be.

Personally I'm glad that I benefited from one. I didn't realise the value of it until my final two years in secondary school when I started to believe and read the Bible for the first time. School facilitated me to a minor extent in that journey, particularly when I was studying Leaving Cert Religion.

So in that respect I don't know if it is such a good idea to get rid of them all. Providing secular schools along ones with religious ethos by all means. Denying people the same opportunity as I had? I don't know. Then again, I think I would have found my way without it.

For context: I went to CofI ethos schools for primary and secondary.

Jaeger 90 · 28-11-2009 10:15PM

mikemac wrote: »

Are you going to apply this to all schools?
There are Protestant schools, I'm picking that example as it was in the news over the last few weeks.
As an another example, if there were Jewish or Muslim schools in Ireland would you target them? If they aren't there now they probably will be some day

Of course there still could be private run religious schools (which religion is irrelevant) , however all state funded school should be 100% secular, that's my point

a5y · 28-11-2009 10:18PM

aDeener wrote: »

ho ho yes you are, why are you only coming out with it now?

Paul McGennis was convicted in 1997. Ivan Payne was convicted in 1998.

"Jumping on the bandwagon?" Try better late than never.

jumpguy · 28-11-2009 10:24PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Post #9 and we are going downhill already.

How so? OMG DEBATE!!!

Anyway, I think that if most schools are run by an organisation...which has had a history of abusing children, then for the sake of the parents, the teachers and the schools it shouldn't be. Then again, Bertie Ahern has evidence of dubious money reciepts and he still sits in the Dáil earning a TD's salary. So, the country is still abit backward. Also, with the country getting filled with immigrants of different religions, it makes more sense. It also means that whatever is to be thought, is thought. There is no bias or prejudice...such an important asset like education should only be in the hands of the state.

I think a referendum would be a great...clearly the people of this country are questioning it.

bleg · 28-11-2009 10:30PM

Copy france. Complete and utter segregation.

Naikon · 28-11-2009 10:31PM

I would support this motive. The catholic church is holding
this country back. This negative publicity is an eye opener.

Morals do not come from old men in dresses, morals are
coded into our DNA. People who don't believe the rubbish
should opt out by formal defection. I have.

I have been atheist for a few years, but have been considered lapsed.
More people who don't believe the rubbish should opt out formally.

It may not be pretty but death == the end!

philologos · 28-11-2009 10:31PM

bleg wrote: »

Copy france. Complete and utter segregation.

France denies people the freedom to express themselves by wearing a headscarf, or a turban. It's definitely not anything I would want to have here in Ireland.

France goes beyond state secularism, it verges into denying people's personal freedoms.

Victor · 28-11-2009 10:32PM

I'm guessing that power hungry secular paedophiles are loving this outrage.

Be careful what you wish for.

o1s1n · 28-11-2009 10:38PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think getting rid of ethos based education is going to be the great thing that everyone thinks it will be.

Personally I'm glad that I benefited from one. I didn't realise the value of it until my final two years in secondary school when I started to believe and read the Bible for the first time. School facilitated me to a minor extent in that journey, particularly when I was studying Leaving Cert Religion.

So in that respect I don't know if it is such a good idea to get rid of them all. Providing secular schools along ones with religious ethos by all means. Denying people the same opportunity as I had? I don't know. Then again, I think I would have found my way without it.

For context: I went to CofI ethos schools for primary and secondary.

I think it's great that you used it to your benefit. However there are a lot of children out there and young adults attending these schools who either have no interest in this particular belief or are too easily persuaded by it to challege it. There are others who practice other faiths and come away feeling slightly ostracized.

If it's secularised it will mean that everyone in school is equal. No belief is given preference.

Those who wish to persue a specific faith can do it on their own time like yourself.

I really don't see any down side to this at all.

Naikon · 28-11-2009 10:41PM

o1s1n wrote: »

I think it's great that you used it to your benefit. However there are a lot of children out there and young adults attending these schools who either have no interest in this particular belief or are too easily persuaded by it to challege it. There are others who practice other faiths and come away feeling slightly ostracized.

If it's secularised it will mean that everyone in school is equal. No belief is given preference.

Those who wish to persue a specific faith can do it on their own time like yourself.

I really don't see any down side to this at all.

Employers are bordering on my personal freedoms by
not allowing me to wear "Fcuk working" to the workplace.

How the Christ religion expects to be treated differently because
it is deemed super offensive to question the beliefs is beyond me.

Non religious people tend not to blow up planes though:)

partyatmygaff · 28-11-2009 10:42PM

The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

Jaeger 90 · 28-11-2009 10:43PM

Victor wrote: »

I'm guessing that power hungry secular paedophiles are loving this outrage.

Be careful what you wish for.

I deliberately didn't mention pedophilia in my argument because I knew it would cheapen it, a tactic papers like the sun would use to rally the braindead and its what your trying to use against me now.

Its another good reason to, but its not the only reason.

I think it should be this way anyway, regardless of whether priests molest kids or not.

philologos · 28-11-2009 10:46PM

Naikon wrote: »

Non religious people tend not to blow up planes though:)

That's such a snide remark.

I could by this reasoning that atheists have butchered over 100 million people in the 20th century, but of course this doesn't cover most atheists.

Let's be honest and fair.

Naikon · 28-11-2009 10:47PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The better solution would be to open secular schools that teach about all religions (This is the case for all secondary schools at the moment with JC religion). Secular Primary schools that taught children about major world religions just as secondary school religion would be suitable in todays Ireland. That is not to say denominational schools should be shut down e.t.c. but they should co-exist and choice should be available.

No, they are all a load of bollocks. Children should not be
subjected to that crap at such a young age.

Why should people be forced to "respect" religion? That's the
sentiment that has lead us to the state we are in regarding religion
and the state.

A complete overhaul with no religious dogma is the only
way to go forward. Everything else is half assed.

Davidius · 28-11-2009 10:49PM

I went to a 'non-denominational school'. They still insisted on having some service yolk around Christmas and when the Pope died. :pac:

Naikon · 28-11-2009 10:51PM

Jakkass wrote: »

That's such a snide remark.

I could by this reasoning that atheists have butchered over 100 million people in the 20th century, but of course this doesn't cover most atheists.

Let's be honest and fair.

Ok fair enough, but you can't deny religion has caused
great suffering throughout history.

From the Inquisition to 9/11, Religion has accounted for
some of the worst atrocities ever.

partyatmygaff · 28-11-2009 10:52PM

Naikon wrote: »

No, they are all a load of bollocks. Children should not be
subjected to that crap at such a young age.

Why should people be forced to "respect" religion? That's the
sentiment that has lead us to the state we are in regarding religion
and the state.

A complete overhaul with no religious dogma is the only
way to go forward. Everything else is half assed.

Your opinion, Its not the opinion of every single person in Ireland and you are not the only person in Ireland. Children need to learn about all the religions of the world.

partyatmygaff · 28-11-2009 10:53PM

Naikon wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but you can't deny religion has caused
great suffering throughout history.

From the Inquisition to 9/11, Religion has accounted for
some of the worst atrocities ever.

The inquistion was the work of power hungry men and has no basis in the religion itself. Just another way man has hurt man.

philologos · 28-11-2009 10:54PM

Naikon: Religion has brought good and bad. Bad implentations of religion end up bad. Good implementations of religion end up good. The same is true of atheism.

I agree entirely with the sentiments of partyatmygaff in his last post.

louisa200 · 28-11-2009 10:57PM

I am sorry my number nine post seemed for some to bring down proceedings, however I have three children, and I have a legal obligation to send them to school, and the state should have a legal obligation to eductate my children, minus religion...
Educate together can do it....
No church should have an influence on schooling imo... faith should be learned from church and home, not school........... school should be about learning everything, not just one thing, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it... my son says the lords prayer three times an ffin day.. wtf is that teaching him?????
The Catholic church should have nothing to do with the eductaion of our children.. and should not be funded by the state to do so, it is fundamentally wrong............

Referendum to change constitution to secularize state fully

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