DTT Mt Leinster, Ch45 blocking Presely in the South East

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 05:08PM

SRB wrote: »

Well, yes, but they couldn't really test to see what the result would be BEFORE switchover. DTT coverage maps are one thing, the real overlapping coverage issue, as is now being found in parts of England and Wales, is another.

Actually this is not true. In East Down they had excellent Caldbeck, Cambret Hill, Winter Hill, Moel-y-Parc, Three Rock and Kippure along with IOM repeaters in analogue with the right aerials as well as Divis. The DTT coverage is designed to REPLICATE analogue coverage so now you have these stations. The difference is: its perfect! Unlike noisy analogue pictures out-of-area. This is because of the digital cliff: its perfect out to the edge of the service area because you have pilot tones and error correction in DVB-T1 and DVB-T2 which reconstruct the signal PERFECTLY in real-time. That is why it was introduced: it beats the pants off PAL and the American ATSC DTT system.

I think people have to get used to this difference. If the boxes had smart tuning software then you could select between these multiple services easily: some do it nicely and others screw it up. The fiasco in Granadaland is caused by poor tuning software: not the system.

marclt · 19-11-2009 05:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh I thought it was on 10kw ?

Not yet! Shame you're aerials have swung around... all that extra wind-load of course!

Wondering how you'd get on with just one of the twins there? Keep an eye out on analogue from Wenvoe aswell... may be intermittent but you might get something still!

bk · 19-11-2009 06:20PM

RTE aren't too concerned about sharing EPG with the UK channels * they have been competing successfully with the UK channels on Sky and UPC for years.

RTE's biggest concern is that the RTE channels aren't easily accessible on the same EPG as the UK channels. For instance if lots of people go Freesat, even if then can still get RTE by switching box, RTE would be concerned that people won't switch over to them as frequently as it isn't inconvenient and that people might get out of the habit of watching RTE.

So if commercial DTT fails, RTE is going to have to come up with a serious plan b. Either:

1) RTE brand and sell their own Freesat/DTT combo boxes.
2) RTE bring out a Free To View cards for Sky boxes and Freesat boxes.
3) RTE allow the main UK channels onto Irish DTT for free, perhaps in a deal facilitated by the UK and Irish government for the Irish channels to be carried up north.

If RTE don't do this, they are likely to see their market share shrink.

SRB · 19-11-2009 06:46PM

mrdtv wrote: »

Actually this is not true. In East Down they had excellent Caldbeck, Cambret Hill, Winter Hill, Moel-y-Parc, Three Rock and Kippure along with IOM repeaters in analogue with the right aerials as well as Divis. The DTT coverage is designed to REPLICATE analogue coverage so now you have these stations. The difference is: its perfect! Unlike noisy analogue pictures out-of-area. This is because of the digital cliff: its perfect out to the edge of the service area because you have pilot tones and error correction in DVB-T1 and DVB-T2 which reconstruct the signal PERFECTLY in real-time. That is why it was introduced: it beats the pants off PAL and the American ATSC DTT system.

I think people have to get used to this difference. If the boxes had smart tuning software then you could select between these multiple services easily: some do it nicely and others screw it up. The fiasco in Granadaland is caused by poor tuning software: not the system.

BUT, there is a big difference between people who set out to receive out of area TV and people who suddenly find it blasting in on an out of group channel. I'd imagine that's what is being looked at at the moment.
I've no idea what power Kippure was putting out, but I was really surprised when I had perfect reception on a laptop indoors earlier this year.

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 07:23PM

SRB wrote: »

BUT, there is a big difference between people who set out to receive out of area TV and people who suddenly find it blasting in on an out of group channel. I'd imagine that's what is being looked at at the moment.
I've no idea what power Kippure was putting out, but I was really surprised when I had perfect reception on a laptop indoors earlier this year.

What's happening is that provided you exceed the C/N fail margin a perfect DTT signal sails down the cable and up it pops. It has been compounded by the tendency in the last eleven years to install high gain wideband antennas and amplifiers when low power DTT was in use: now suddenly receive systems are overspecified in primary service areas where signals have gone up by 10dB average. Kippure has probably been reduced in power to minimise costs and until analogue switchoff.

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 08:42PM

bk wrote: »

RTE aren't too concerned about sharing EPG with the UK channels * they have been competing successfully with the UK channels on Sky and UPC for years.

RTE's biggest concern is that the RTE channels aren't easily accessible on the same EPG as the UK channels. For instance if lots of people go Freesat, even if then can still get RTE by switching box, RTE would be concerned that people won't switch over to them as frequently as it isn't inconvenient and that people might get out of the habit of watching RTE.

So if commercial DTT fails, RTE is going to have to come up with a serious plan b. Either:

1) RTE brand and sell their own Freesat/DTT combo boxes.
2) RTE bring out a Free To View cards for Sky boxes and Freesat boxes.
3) RTE allow the main UK channels onto Irish DTT for free, perhaps in a deal facilitated by the UK and Irish government for the Irish channels to be carried up north.

If RTE don't do this, they are likely to see their market share shrink.

Very interesting points there:

a) This is an entirely credible move but UK DTT technology is changing so there might be a short delay.

b) This is fine for Sky but Freesat has no CA because the BBC is adamantly opposed to it. It will cost big money to administer.

c) I don't think c) works because the UK stations are being paid by pay providers, are available in the clear via satellite and the expanding DTT overspill. They have it every way! I cannot see RTE being distributed via DTT in N Ireland unless they pay Arqiva, there is spectrum available, and Ofcom are auctioneers of spectrum.

The use of the cochannel Preseli COM muxes at Mount Leinster today will just destabilise the entire DTT market in Ireland as the naieve consumer will think DTT as a platform is decidely dodgy. In the UK they have a saying : 'Freeview changes: the gift that keeps on giving to satellite'. In Ireland every Freesat viewer is a nail in the coffin for autonomous RTE digital distribution. Instead of spiking Preseli COM muxes they should be seeking a collaborative strategy to maximise DTT homes. But out-of-the-box thinking is absent at Donnybrook and there have been other dismal examples: the ridiculous deal with Sky. ( In America Direc TV and Echostar pay to carry NBC, CBS, ABC etc...) Whoever was responsible for today's obvious wheeze should be fired as they are strategically and tactically incompetent. It also will not affect the reception of the UK PSB muxes as these will not be affected: so viewers will probably still carry on buying Freeview boxes and, as you say, switching back to analogue is a drag and picture quality is poorer. I now think RTENL are caught between a rock, the Sky, and a very hard place. And it was so avoidable....

19-11-2009 09:12PM

In other news,it looks like the masthead amp under the twins was hit by flying debris which is the reason for my outage.

That won't be fixed now untill later in the week.

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 09:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

In other news,it looks like the masthead amp under the twins was hit by flying debris which is the reason for my outage.

That won't be fixed now untill later in the week.

That is why it is good to have satellite and terrestrial as backups to each other. At least the twins weren't damaged, and it is an unusual accident! Let us know how the CCI pans out from Mount Leinster. Keep warm and safe..

bk · 19-11-2009 09:50PM

mrdtv wrote: »

b) This is fine for Sky but Freesat has no CA because the BBC is adamantly opposed to it. It will cost big money to administer.

True, I forgot about that, perhaps RTE could produce their own Freesat boxes with a CA slot.

mrdtv wrote: »

c) I don't think c) works because the UK stations are being paid by pay providers, are available in the clear via satellite and the expanding DTT overspill. They have it every way! I cannot see RTE being distributed via DTT in N Ireland unless they pay Arqiva, there is spectrum available, and Ofcom are auctioneers of spectrum.

Actually in RTE's original proposal for DTT years ago they proposed carrying the 4 UK terrestrial channels for free. They knew the importance of the UK channels to the success of DTT.

I realise my proposals are slightly out there, but I honestly believe RTE are in serious trouble with this at the moment and they need to do something radical.

mrdtv wrote: »

the ridiculous deal with Sky. ( In America Direc TV and Echostar pay to carry NBC, CBS, ABC etc...) Whoever was responsible for today's obvious wheeze should be fired as they are strategically and tactically incompetent. It also will not affect the reception of the UK PSB muxes as these will not be affected: so viewers will probably still carry on buying Freeview boxes and, as you say, switching back to analogue is a drag and picture quality is poorer. I now think RTENL are caught between a rock, the Sky, and a very hard place. And it was so avoidable....

I agree completely, Sky needed RTE far more then the other way around. RTE should have at least gotten a Free To View card scheme out of Sky and paid for by Sky. Frankly they should still go and do that now and use the Irish government to force it if they need.

byte · 19-11-2009 09:59PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Humax Freesat HDR box does have a CI slot?

Apogee · 19-11-2009 10:17PM

byte wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Humax Freesat HDR box does have a CI slot?

It does.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/freesat/876605-anyone-got-cam-they-can-try-humax-hdr.html

And the Panasonic and LG Freesat TVs have CI slots as well.

mrdtv · 19-11-2009 10:52PM

Apogee wrote: »

It does.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/freesat/876605-anyone-got-cam-they-can-try-humax-hdr.html

And the Panasonic and LG Freesat TVs have CI slots as well.

Yes, but Freesat as a platform is controlled by the BBC/ITV, and they have no plans for CA. They spent years getting away from Sky's clutches...

Apogee · 19-11-2009 11:43PM

mrdtv wrote: »

Yes, but Freesat as a platform is controlled by the BBC/ITV, and they have no plans for CA. They spent years getting away from Sky's clutches...

Nobody said Freesat had plans for CA.

Officially, they remain agnostic on the issue, so there would be nothing to stop RTÉ, other than cost/political will, to dual encrypt their current services on Astra with a 3rd party encryption system on top of Videoguard.

PyeContinental · 20-11-2009 10:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

In other news,it looks like the masthead amp under the twins was hit by flying debris which is the reason for my outage.

That won't be fixed now untill later in the week.

Hmm, I wonder could anyone recommend you a new one?

Glad to hear your twins weren't injured though :pac:

PyeContinental · 20-11-2009 10:17AM

Anyway, I see that the Irish channels are now also being broadcast on Ch49 (698MHz).

marclt · 20-11-2009 12:39PM

What a co-incidence! Gosh they are busy up there on Mt. Leinster!!!

Wake me up when they start tx-ing on Ch. 39! At this rate, it could happen at some point later today! LOL!

Satdog · 20-11-2009 11:12PM

I'm currently receiving FTA PSB Muxes from Preseli on an 18 element contract aerial. I have replaced most of the cable with CT100 equivelent (MF100) which has stabilised the signal - my Triax Unix 52 is still in the box. I have lost Ch 42 from Preseli like other posters but I have gained Ch 42 (4 TV plus Radio) from Mt Leinster, for some reason I can't pick up Ch 45. By the way I don't have a UHF aerial for Mt Leinster. Full interactive text is working but can't seem to get EPG.

Verso · 21-11-2009 04:39PM

Satdog - I would appear to be in the same position as you with regard to Channels 42 and 45. I have a 48 element Philex Wideband aerial connected through a Technomate Combo receiver. I am glad to say that all is still well with Channels 43 and 46 which to me are the most important. However I do like ITV 3 which I have recently lost.

My system is situate in North Wexford on the coast.

21-11-2009 06:27PM

marclt wrote: »

What a co-incidence! Gosh they are busy up there on Mt. Leinster!!!

Wake me up when they start tx-ing on Ch. 39! At this rate, it could happen at some point later today! LOL!

The only hope of that is probably if sky one appears fta on that channel from presely...The lads will be dashing up to the tower switching it on faster than bee's to honey..

Hi lads by the way

Incidently is it only mt leinster thats got 3 muxes going now ? are they the only ones that have switched to Eirtricity or Bord Gais or summat? mrdtv has a ring of truth in what he said in post 2..
That said when the one vision thing collapses,a pq to the minister why RTE are wasting money at mt leinster radiating channels in triplicate might be in order

SRB · 22-11-2009 11:52AM

mrdtv wrote: »

What's happening is that provided you exceed the C/N fail margin a perfect DTT signal sails down the cable and up it pops. It has been compounded by the tendency in the last eleven years to install high gain wideband antennas and amplifiers when low power DTT was in use: now suddenly receive systems are overspecified in primary service areas where signals have gone up by 10dB average. Kippure has probably been reduced in power to minimise costs and until analogue switchoff.

That's very true, as you have mentioned the East Coast of Down, which needed higher gain group K's (though most installers stuck in a wideband) and mastheads to get a steady DTT from Divis, is now finding DTT romping in from Scotland. Was in a friends house in Cloughy on Friday and their small LCD TV in the Kitchen, locks on BBC1 Scotland and ITV1, while the main TV is BBC1 NI. I'd imagine a lot of people in the DTT wilderness of the North East coastline will be more than happy to watch DTT from Scotland, it's a stong steady signal and will be the signal of choice until 2012. Maybe it'll speed switch over up here in NI !

Satdog · 23-11-2009 11:19AM

Satdog wrote: »

I'm currently receiving FTA PSB Muxes from Preseli on an 18 element contract aerial. I have replaced most of the cable with CT100 equivelent (MF100) which has stabilised the signal - my Triax Unix 52 is still in the box. I have lost Ch 42 from Preseli like other posters but I have gained Ch 42 (4 TV plus Radio) from Mt Leinster, for some reason I can't pick up Ch 45. By the way I don't have a UHF aerial for Mt Leinster. Full interactive text is working but can't seem to get EPG.

What I meant here is that I can now get Ch 42 but not Ch 45 (never could) from Mt Leinster without a dedicated UHF aerial. Is Ch 42 being broadcast with more power?

marclt · 23-11-2009 11:39AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The only hope of that is probably if sky one appears fta on that channel from presely...The lads will be dashing up to the tower switching it on faster than bee's to honey..

Hi lads by the way

Incidently is it only mt leinster thats got 3 muxes going now ? are they the only ones that have switched to Eirtricity or Bord Gais or summat? mrdtv has a ring of truth in what he said in post 2..
That said when the one vision thing collapses,a pq to the minister why RTE are wasting money at mt leinster radiating channels in triplicate might be in order

All we need now are some reception reports from the west Wales coast and that could sort this out. UK signals getting blocked? Trouble is, around the coast there are many in-fill transmitters (St. Davids/Broad Haven, Fishguard, St. Dogmaels that cover the Preseli blackspots).

Although most in Fishguard are able to get Preseli also and some pick up Mt. Leinster, it might be interesting to see what is happening there.

mrdtv · 24-11-2009 11:09AM

SRB wrote: »

That's very true, as you have mentioned the East Coast of Down, which needed higher gain group K's (though most installers stuck in a wideband) and mastheads to get a steady DTT from Divis, is now finding DTT romping in from Scotland. Was in a friends house in Cloughy on Friday and their small LCD TV in the Kitchen, locks on BBC1 Scotland and ITV1, while the main TV is BBC1 NI. I'd imagine a lot of people in the DTT wilderness of the North East coastline will be more than happy to watch DTT from Scotland, it's a stong steady signal and will be the signal of choice until 2012. Maybe it'll speed switch over up here in NI !

Very interesting. The problem for Divis at the moment is that there is CCI from the very strong Caldbeck COM muxes which won't go away until DSO in 2012. The Scottish signal is Cambret Hill which will be coming in from behind or the side. At Cloughey with suitable aerials you can get Cambret Hill, Clermont Carn, Caldbeck, Winter Hill (soon the high power on everything, next Wednesday), the Isle of Man repeaters including the SFN, Moel-y-Parc (fully high power from there tomorrow), Kippure and a few others. Talk about RF congestion. East and South Down will get HD from December 2nd off Winter Hill if you can get it (must be out of way of Newcastle relay), and from Caldbeck etc next summer. So far from being a DTT desert East and South Down and North Antrim coast will have Freeview HD long before Divis viewers : new mast has to be erected. BTW you friend's main TV probably has Cambret Hill channels in the 800's: Freeview boxes sort on either strongest signal (which would be Cambret Hill) or lowest frequencies ( Divis is Group A and Cambret Group B, so Divis loads first.). This is also why a lot of boxes put the RTE channels in the 800's because they are higher frequencies in East Down.

mrdtv · 24-11-2009 11:14AM

Here we go. From ukfree.tv with acknowledgements. So if Mount Leinster is easily been received in Fishguard then there are bound to be problems with the reception of Preseli COM muxes in adjoining areas. No doubt the BBC and Ofcom measuring vans will be out in the area taking measurements. I will have another post on this shortly.

From ukfree.tv, Fishguard transmitter:

Please note the Fishguard digital transmissions are subject to a problem with the EPG. I live in Dinas Cross, and my aerial, while pointing at Goodwick and receiving excellent Freeview, also points at Mount Leinster in Ireland, a main RTE transmitter. That transmits digital on Ch45. (RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4, and radio). While the Irish transmissions are in MPEG 4 and therefore unwatchable in UK, the program identity appears and the sound works. The Irish transmissions also appear in the EPG where they usurp the intended UK EPG, sometimes pushing BBC1 to channel 801!
Scanning works through the Irish channel first (45) before proceeding to Ch61 (Fishguard)
For whatever reason, the Irish transmissions seem a little unstable, triggering daily calls for a retune on the Freeview box, and thereby upsetting the EPG again and again. The signal strength from Mount Leinster varies from 7/10 to 10/10 (i.e. as good as Fishguard!). Occasionally, the Three Rock transmitter from Ireland adds its own twopennorth with another batch of channels, the EPG becoming clogged up!

It appears to me that the only way to get out of this probelem is to fit a notch filter to the aerial system, cutting off frequencies below Ch45; this does seem a rather unfair expense on viewers in Dinas Cross. Can the Irish be persuaded to stop sending such a strong signal across the Irish Sea?

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mrdtv · 24-11-2009 11:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The only hope of that is probably if sky one appears fta on that channel from presely...The lads will be dashing up to the tower switching it on faster than bee's to honey..

Hi lads by the way

Incidently is it only mt leinster thats got 3 muxes going now ? are they the only ones that have switched to Eirtricity or Bord Gais or summat? mrdtv has a ring of truth in what he said in post 2..
That said when the one vision thing collapses,a pq to the minister why RTE are wasting money at mt leinster radiating channels in triplicate might be in order

RTE's current economic position is dire:

http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/rte-staff-braced-for-further-budgetary-cuts-of-20m-45674.html

It therefore seems that major cuts will be needed across the board in both capital expenditure and operating expenditure. This means that almost certainly cuts will fall on future technology and RTENL. The current 'episode' of triple test radiation at Mount Leinster is undoubtedly incurring significant unrecoverable electricity charges which will be shouldered by RTENL alone. The OneVision proposal looks DOA in the light of current economic circumstances and EasyTV will not find it easy to raise funding or secure investor endorsement with two previous bidders having pulled out. The BAI business model is dead and buried (just like DAB), the Department will not put up the money for a DUK type operation, RTE is in serious financial difficulties and the window of opportunity for an autonomous DTT system is shrinking daily. RTE's problems are structural: the downturn in the TV advertising market may be permanent, UTV is losing significant ROI revenue because of the economic mess (and is only shielded because of its portfolio of radio stations.)

Without a commercial bidder ( now highly implausible) or a fundamental rethink at BAI, the Department and RTE Irish DTT will stall. Again. And again. And again.

In the meantime with the need to conserve cash becoming a paramount consideration for RTE they should shut down the tests on 42, 45 and 49 and switch to E39. The reasons for doing this are obvious:

a) Conserve cash

b) Prevent a mass migration to Freesat/Sky in the South East which further undermines DTT as a platform per se. In the case of Freesat RTE are permanently excluded and, in the case of Sky, RTE are impotent and held to ransom.

c) The use of Channel 39 is strategic. It will load first in most DTT receivers and give RTE the LCNs 1-4 instead of being exiled into in the 800's. This is so obvious because Preseli PSB muxes are 43, 46 and 50 (HD).

d) Freeview HD will be pushed very strongly by the British next year to tie in with the World Cup. All the Welsh transmitters will be HD enabled next year and the receivers will be backwards compatible with MPEG4 DVB-T1. The volumes will be much larger than for any Irish DTT market. A perfect 'cash-in and coattail' strategy beckons.

The current vainglorious triple irradiation at Mount Leinster may be an exercise in protecting spectrum sovereignty by Comreg and RTENL but as a consumer and competitive proposition it is entirely counterproductive. Irish viewers will simply switch to Freesat given the current continuing economic climate and there will be no Irish DTT ever.

sesswhat · 24-11-2009 01:20PM

mrdtv wrote: »

c) The use of Channel 39 is strategic. It will load first in most DTT receivers and give RTE the LCNs 1-4 instead of being exiled into in the 800's. This is so obvious because Preseli PSB muxes are 43, 46 and 50 (HD).

Which receivers do this? All the ones I've experimented with, including older Freeview boxes, the Picnic box and a 2009 model mpeg4 Samsung TV, all put the RTEs high up the channel numbers, despite tuning them in first (Holywell Hill).

mrdtv · 24-11-2009 01:26PM

sesswhat wrote: »

Which receivers do this? All the ones I've experimented with, including older Freeview boxes, the Picnic box and a 2009 model mpeg4 Samsung TV, all put the RTEs high up the channel numbers, despite tuning them in first (Holywell Hill).

BT Vision, a number of others as well. Sony TVs allow you to reorder the LCNs!I think RTE have set a flag which causes this problem and the Picnic box is hard wired to the UK

olliewexford · 24-11-2009 05:47PM

My friend emailed RTE this morning about the Testing of channels 42/45/& 49 interrupting our preseli reception from Mount Leinster. the reply was

"45 will be the public service multiplex but we are currently testing on three frequencies from that site. Once the service is launched, 45 will be the one carrying the Irish services."

I wonder does this mean the 42 & 49 will be ok after this test period or blocked with a blank transmission???

mrdtv · 24-11-2009 06:20PM

olliewexford wrote: »

My friend emailed RTE this morning about the Testing of channels 42/45/& 49 interrupting our preseli reception from Mount Leinster. the reply was

"45 will be the public service multiplex but we are currently testing on three frequencies from that site. Once the service is launched, 45 will be the one carrying the Irish services."

I wonder does this mean the 42 & 49 will be ok after this test period or blocked with a blank transmission???

A triumph of unfounded optimism over economics? I wonder how long before swingeing cuts are made with big cuts at RTENL and operating costs severely reduced. As I said earlier today E39 makes far more sense as its before Preseli in the receiver scan. The new T2 receivers have a much smarter tuning specification and will simply include the option to exclude RTE or exile it to the 800's as part of the new DTG specification. I expect the axe will fall before Christmas on many parts of RTE and the very costly tests.

SRB · 24-11-2009 08:19PM

sesswhat wrote: »

Which receivers do this? All the ones I've experimented with, including older Freeview boxes, the Picnic box and a 2009 model mpeg4 Samsung TV, all put the RTEs high up the channel numbers, despite tuning them in first (Holywell Hill).

Depends on the box s/w. Both BBC1 and RTE 1 have a Logical Channel flag of postion 1. Most boxes will put the strongest signal with the logical flag of 1 at the 1 position, and any others flagged as 1, though with a weaker signal, in the 800's. The idea being that in overlap areas the intended channels for the area would be in the main position. There is also a "country flag", so if you've selected UK as where you live, some boxes will ignore transmissions with another country flag. Some boxes do this, some just slot anything flagged as 1 in the 1 slot - in the past I've seen boxes with Three 1's BBC1 NI, BBC1 Wales and RTE1.

DTT Mt Leinster, Ch45 blocking Presely in the South East

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