Boycott Coca Cola

JONJO THE MISER · 06-11-2009 12:06PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

I'm inclined to call bullshit on that statement.

I've heard Newfoundland is one of the few places where Pepsi outsells Coke, but the idea that nowhere there stocks Coke is ridiculous, and it looks like nobody told these guys. ("F.J. Wadden is the largest distributor of Coca Cola products in Newfoundland and Labrador carrying a full line of products including (PowerAde, Dasani Water, Minute Maid Juices, Nestea, Post Mix, Fruitopia, and Premix. Along with Coca Cola, 'Waddens' is dedicated in meeting your entire beverage needs.")

No my good man i have lived there and most places will not stock coca cola, the only place i saw it there was in a sobeys supermarket and it was given so little space it was hard to believe, even here in Aus where im at the moment, Pepsi in the local coles and woolworths seels at $2-$2.50 and coca cola sells at $3.60.

BlueLepreachaun · 06-11-2009 02:12PM

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Ummmmm, what?

The answer is to protect our vastly overcooked costbase? Good grief, if we were competitive as a manufacturing location we would now be starting to climb out of this mess. Outsourcing is not a dirty word and strips you of nothing. It merely recognises the need to move production to the location that offers the best balance of quality and price. Our goal should be to become a viable alternative not to protect jobs that we have zero hope of retaining.

I find this position as equally absurd as boycotting the entire company being a soloution.
We do not have a high labour cost base and we have criminally low corporation taxes, the only major cost to business here is local govt charges and red tape, and that mostly affects small businesses not giant mega corporations like coca cola (who usually get corporate welfare cheques to set up here anyway).
The entire rust belt in the US was created by profitable US companies moving overseas to make even more profits.
Outsourcing is not the result of a company going bankrupt and gosh darn it having no choice but to cut costs, its usally them sitting in the board room saying "well were making €500m here...but we could be making €700m over here....lets move over here...because €500m is just not enough" (and nothing ever is, its an endless race to the bottom to desperatly and infinitly raise profits or shareholder value)

Also, the notion that we could compete on manufacturing as a future economic model is absurd, this is not 1995 anymore, we will never be able to compete with eastern european wages, we need to find other niches in the global economy.

Prof.Badass · 06-11-2009 02:21PM

coca cola should be sued for also advertising. Especially when they go around saying "always the real thing". No matter how much caffeine and de-cocainised coca leaves you add in, it'll never be the real deal. It's still missing it's main ingredient and the reason it became so popular.

Bring back the original recipe!

faceman · 06-11-2009 02:36PM

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

I shall tell ye a interesting story, over in Newfoundland in Canada you will find no store or shop, pub nor restaurant selling coca cola, why? because they screwed workers there many years ago and the whole place boycotted them:D, time for us Irish to do the same.

*cough* http://www.fjwadden.ca/products.html *cough*

An online search found no reference to your claim. I did find a facebook page where some punter from Newfoundland was talking about how she was from Newfoundland and buys her Coca-Cola in bottles there.

Joey the lips wrote: »

The effects of outsourcing.

Not have a go at you but I wanted to pick up on some of your points.

wrote:

I am amazed at the lack of support for coca cola workers. But then again I am not surprised. There has been no unitity in ireland in decdades and with is not likely in the next few either.

Thats just not true. There were many rallies in Ireland in the 60's/70's and 80's. On november 11th we are bracing for possibly the largest rally in the history of the Irish state.

wrote:

Since the health and safety legislation improved and the labour court got more people friendly the need for unions bargin power has diminished. Why? Because what they do and are perceived to do is totally different in peoples eyes. I dont see this sole blame in the eyes of the unions however they have not helped by having the jack o connor situation occur with pat kenny.

The problem many people have with unions is their apparant lack of grasp of reality when it comes to economic issues. They fail to see beyond their own wants.

wrote:

We as a country are heading towards a massive pensions minefield! Our health system is buckleing from outsourcing and our education system is under strain.

Given the union and public sector resistence and rejection of the pension levy, you cant blame the government for their desire to try compensate the shortfall, even if they have had it wrong for a long time. The shortfall has to come from somewhere.

seamus · 06-11-2009 02:36PM

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

We do not have a high labour cost base

You're taking the piss, right? Our minimum wage is one of the highest in the western world (if not the highest?).

Corporation tax rates are low, but the difference between Irish and other EU tax rates can be mitigated through accounting and financial tricks. You cannot use mathematical tricks to reduce your wage bill (and PRSI on top of it).

However, the labour cost base issue isn't a single-company issue. The problem is that since we are *all* paying high wages, then the cost of your supplies and services are also high, which reduces your margin, which requires you to increase your prices and in turn those increases come back to you from your suppliers.

It's a systemic issue. The problem is that people only see their bottom line (of course). Minimum wage creates an artifical price floor, beyond which it is simply not possible for companies to reduce their prices without pricing themselves out of business or moving to a different country. What people don't see is that if we drop the minimum wage by 10% (for example), yes those on lower incomes have less buying power, which in turn requires companies to drop their prices to sell more goods, which they are now able to do because their labour cost base has been dropped by more than 10%.

The same logic which caused our wages and costs to get so high in the first place can be applied to get our wages and costs to drop too. Unfortunately dropping wages and costs requires a lot more short-term pain than increasing them.

BlueLepreachaun · 06-11-2009 02:58PM

You're taking the piss, right? Our minimum wage is one of the highest in the western world (if not the highest?).

Yes, its quite high, and thats a good thing, considering our high cost of living, it's also hard to compare it with others since some have monthly and daily min wages and some have collective agreements and not min wages written into the law.
Less than 15% of the workforce are on it (min wage €18,000 a year, avearge industrial wage is €35,000), so its not making us uncompetative.

As I said above, the notion of us being able to compete on wages is absurd, it can't be done.

Corporation tax rates are low, but the difference between Irish and other EU tax rates can be mitigated through accounting and financial tricks. You cannot use mathematical tricks to reduce your wage bill (and PRSI on top of it).

However, the labour cost base issue isn't a single-company issue. The problem is that since we are *all* paying high wages, then the cost of your supplies and services are also high, which reduces your margin, which requires you to increase your prices and in turn those increases come back to you from your suppliers.

Ireland does not have high wages, by any stretch of the imagination.

It's a systemic issue. The problem is that people only see their bottom line (of course). Minimum wage creates an artifical price floor, beyond which it is simply not possible for companies to reduce their prices without pricing themselves out of business or moving to a different country. What people don't see is that if we drop the minimum wage by 10% (for example), yes those on lower incomes have less buying power, which in turn requires companies to drop their prices to sell more goods, which they are now able to do because their labour cost base has been dropped by more than 10%.

Thats an argument for another day, I would argue no minimum wage anywhere in the world has ever cost a job in a large company, in fact when it was introduced IBEC predicted massive job losses, what followed was the largest growth in employment in Irish history, not because the min wage did it, but because it had nothing to do with stopping it, considering most people in manufacturing (and most of the Irish workforce) are not paid the minimum wage, or close to it.
The average hourly compensation cost in 2007 in the manufacturing sector in Ireland was $29.04 (using a US govt database so it has to be dolars), our minimum wage is around $12.00, so manufacturing wages are way ahead of any floor.

Lets look at some actual figures, as opposed to IBEC propaganda, to see how "uncompetative" our wages are, some quick facts:

Irish wages are 11% below the average for the “EU 15″ (OECD benefits and wages database)
Irish labour costs overall (prsi included with wages etc) are 7% lower than the the average in the EU15
Irish people work three weeks longer per year than the avearge in the EU15 (Average Irish working hours per year are 1,802; Average EU-15 are 1,748; Average EU-27 are 1,695)
Social Insurance contributions (PRSI) from the employer are 10% in Ireland they are 45% in France and 35% in Italy.

But lets stick to manufacturing, lets look at the average hourly compensation costs in manufacturing compared to our European neighbours (US bureau of labour stats):

Ireland: $29.04
Austria: $35.33
France: $28.57
UK: $29.73
and outside the EU, Norway: $41.69
Portugal is $8.27 and Greece is $18.03 (the poorest of the EU15)

Now your probably thinking EU15? Sure theres the EU 27 now...well yes..but thats not really comparing like with like is it?
To compete with Poland on wages for example our average wage in manufacturing would have to drop from $29.04 an hour to below the Polish average of $6.17 per hour

....can you say deflation? can you say race to the bottom?

seamus · 06-11-2009 03:14PM

So thanks for those figures, and OK, assuming that those figures still hold true (the OECD stuff lags by a couple of years), we still have my point of the cost of goods and services provided to manufacturers.

BlueLepreachaun · 06-11-2009 03:29PM

Hey dont get me wrong I'm not sayign we have no problems, but we, and everyone else in the world, need to start asking ourselves, given current economic trends, what kind of world we want to live in.
Are wages going to drop so low as one country is played off against the other by FDI that were reach a point where we are all just working to live and living to work.

If we keep on the way were going were heading for a pretty dystopian future.
Our predecessors in the 19th and early 20th centuries already lived through that kind of lassie fare market rules all workers must do what they are told world, they made the decision that they didn't want to live that way, and now we have the 40 hour week (as opposed to 12 hour days), the weekend, (some) labour laws, social security etc Since th 80s the western worlds been progressivly stripping those accomplishments away to prop up a declining rate of profit since the 60s (helped along by idiotic union actions in the 70s).

But even if your happy with the kind of economic model the worlds using now, Irelands niche in that global market can't be manufacturing, because outside of western europe the wages in it are too low, we couldnt ever hope to match it.

The problem is were not developing any other niches, were just paying lip service to this "knowledge economy" stuff while we dont even have basic equipment in our secondary school science labs and most schools dont even have all three science subjects.

I really, honestly, don't think the people in charge of our country have any idea what they are doing, I think they are just trying to cut and cut and cut to stop us drowning in red ink and hoping they hold the line untl the global economy starts up again, not trying any stimulas or active iniatitives of their own.

Porkpie · 06-11-2009 03:44PM

If anything, this thread has only put the longing on me for a bottle of coke.

RossFixxxed · 06-11-2009 04:29PM

weeder wrote: »

no.

This is the best possible answer to this thread.

I like it, so just no.

Find something better to do with your time, get a job.

Then post on an Internet forum... err....

yoyo · 06-11-2009 05:15PM

Tescos own brand Cola is actually quite nice

. You used to be able to get 12 cans for €2.99 but paid €3.08 I think it was the other day for the pack, still good value though

Nick

Joey the lips · 06-11-2009 05:42PM

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Ummmmm, what?

The answer is to protect our vastly overcooked costbase? Good grief, if we were competitive as a manufacturing location we would now be starting to climb out of this mess. Outsourcing is not a dirty word and strips you of nothing. It merely recognises the need to move production to the location that offers the best balance of quality and price. Our goal should be to become a viable alternative not to protect jobs that we have zero hope of retaining.

Well then you clearly dont understand outsourcing!

Major rule of outsourcing: If its cheaper to make it then make it. If its cheaper to buy it buy it! The only way to make outsourcing cheap is to strip away at the cost base. Once you reach min wage you then strip away at entitlements. Once you strip those then you strip hours. Better to pay 20 people to work 10 hours than 10 people to work 20 hours.

Your answer is fine, dont pay me sick, dont pay me hoildays, dont pay me pension and yes if you can get away with it give me as little hours as possible to insure that you pay the min cost for me!

You might not have said that but thats what you imply.

The Pontiac · 06-11-2009 06:48PM

This is the perfect example of bandwagoning by a company in the current economic climate. COCA COLA HBC IRELAND is an independent and separate business to Coca-Cola Ireland, which bottles their products under licence. Coca Cola HBC recorded profits of €201 million for the first half of 2009. On 18th September Coca Cola HBC announced a capital return of €548 million in cash to its shareholders.

This company will never, ever get into serious financial trouble. Coca Cola is probably the most famous brand in the world, and you can be guaranteed it will be around forever.

The company then had the cheek to offer the workers only statutory redundancy (legal minimum requirement, government pays 60%), even after previously 'agreeing' a much better package.

I wish people would judge each individual case on its merits, instead of saying "the unions can fúck off". The workers were 100% right here and SIPTU were 100% right in calling for a boycott of Coca Cola.

Mister Man · 06-11-2009 06:52PM

I dont drink any fizzy drinks anymore, dont like them as
much, i like getting a bottle of water instead

Joey the lips · 06-11-2009 07:50PM

Mister Man wrote: »

I dont drink any fizzy drinks anymore, dont like them as
much, i like getting a bottle of water instead

Volvic and coca cola are the same company just for information and boycotting purposes~!

FlutterinBantam · 06-11-2009 08:43PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Well then you clearly dont understand outsourcing!

Major rule of outsourcing: If its cheaper to make it then make it. If its cheaper to buy it buy it! The only way to make outsourcing cheap is to strip away at the cost base. Once you reach min wage you then strip away at entitlements. Once you strip those then you strip hours. Better to pay 20 people to work 10 hours than 10 people to work 20 hours.

Your answer is fine, dont pay me sick, dont pay me hoildays, dont pay me pension and yes if you can get away with it give me as little hours as possible to insure that you pay the min cost for me!

You might not have said that but thats what you imply.

Indeed indeed... major advantage of outsourcing is that you don't have to pay the malingerers, the wasters, the non performers, the bedded in for life punters, while I expend my energies in outside work commercial activities punters.

;)

Joey the lips · 06-11-2009 09:10PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Indeed indeed... major advantage of outsourcing is that you don't have to pay the malingerers, the wasters, the non performers, the bedded in for life punters, while I expend my energies in outside work commercial activities punters.
;)

So just because a job is outsourced you avoid this! That is rubbish. There is ways around this. When a private company outsources jobs its not because people are not working its to avoid paying pension rights and hoilday rights!

and before you say that outsourced people are entitled to the same rights there is ways around this! Short term broken contracts and short hours being one. Just ask any of the ikea staff what there hours are and you will get a shock! Everything that comes cheap comes at a price to someone!

There has never been a positive outcome written on outsoucing from an employee perspective. NEVER!

Mike 1972 · 06-11-2009 09:24PM

You know there are many good reasons for boycotting coca cola and have been for many years.

But since they involve things which happen to dark skinned foreign types in faraway countries nobody in Ireland really gives a toss until something happens at home.

Then people start squealing "why arent you boycotting coca cola ? where is your solidarity ?" :rolleyes:

Joey the lips · 06-11-2009 09:29PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

You know there are many good reasons for boycotting coca cola and have been for many years.

But since they involve things which happen to dark skinned foreign types in faraway countries nobody in Ireland really gives a toss until something happens at home.

Then people start squealing "why arent you boycotting coca cola ? where is your solidarity ?" :rolleyes:

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11925

Was waiting on someone to raise that!

BlueLepreachaun · 06-11-2009 09:43PM

Boycotts seem like a lazy tactic to avoid questioning or challenging the real fundamental problems with our economic system.
I challenge any one to find me a totaly ethical company where we could not find some reason to boycott them.

donkey balls · 06-11-2009 11:42PM

<Ollie> wrote: »

This is the perfect example of bandwagoning by a company in the current economic climate. COCA COLA HBC IRELAND is an independent and separate business to Coca-Cola Ireland, which bottles their products under licence. Coca Cola HBC recorded profits of €201 million for the first half of 2009. On 18th September Coca Cola HBC announced a capital return of €548 million in cash to its shareholders.

This company will never, ever get into serious financial trouble. Coca Cola is probably the most famous brand in the world, and you can be guaranteed it will be around forever.

The company then had the cheek to offer the workers only statutory redundancy (legal minimum requirement, government pays 60%), even after previously 'agreeing' a much better package.

I wish people would judge each individual case on its merits, instead of saying "the unions can fúck off". The workers were 100% right here and SIPTU were 100% right in calling for a boycott of Coca Cola.

the company and employees who are on strike went to the LRC,who found in favour of the employees the company has refused to take the LRC recomondations on board.
coca cola wants the employees to take a 50% pay cut i was offered a job a couple of montha ago driving an artic for 8.65 an hour by a well known english company setting up in ireland i know people have taken a pay cut(i have as well)but some of these companies are using the current situation to rub it in.

Fighting Irish · 06-11-2009 11:55PM

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Boycotts seem like a lazy tactic to avoid questioning or challenging the real fundamental problems with our economic system.
I challenge any one to find me a totaly ethical company where we could not find some reason to boycott them.

stop talking sense

VinnyTGM · 07-11-2009 12:57AM

I drink milk.:o

Stark · 07-11-2009 01:34AM

Lambsbread wrote: »

What has a drugs bust in Swords got to do with Coca Cola??

The link's now pointing to something about a priest being kidnapped by MILFs.

donkey balls wrote:

coca cola wants the employees to take a 50% pay cut

What were they on before being asked to take a pay cut?

jumpguy · 07-11-2009 01:38AM

Stark wrote: »

The link's now pointing to something about a priest being kidnapped by MILFs.

Yeah, what was the whole boycotting coke thing about? Didn't get much from the first two pages...

Liam Byrne · 07-11-2009 02:36AM

Considering that some fast food restaurants give you that Pepsi muck even if you ask for Coke by name, I'd nearly boycott them first.

They pour you out something you didn't ask for, and then look at you dumbfounded if you truthfully point out that they're not giving you what you asked for.

The odd time you'll get someone with cop-on that'll say "we only have Pepsi, is that ok ?", but that's VERY rare.....

Yellowsubmarine · 07-11-2009 02:52AM

F*ck off and leave coke alone!! It's the best drink in the world and if coke leaves the country then I too will be forced to leave and follow coke :pac:

Osgoodisgood · 07-11-2009 10:45PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Well then you clearly dont understand outsourcing!

No? Ok, then maybe you'll help me out. There I was thinking that outsourcing referred to shifting activities that had previously been conducted within the confines of a company or country to another, external location or organisation that offered the opportunity to create the product or service in a more desireable fashion. This would typically mean lower cost, higher quality, faster manufacture etc.

Major rule of outsourcing: If its cheaper to make it then make it. If its cheaper to buy it buy it!

That's one of many considerations.

The only way to make outsourcing cheap is to strip away at the cost base. Once you reach min wage you then strip away at entitlements. Once you strip those then you strip hours. Better to pay 20 people to work 10 hours than 10 people to work 20 hours.

Bit of a rant there but I know where you're going. In an effort to be competitive it is very often necessary to reduce costs. This often means reducing hours or headcount. Nasty stuff but an essential ingredient in running a company.

Your answer is fine, dont pay me sick, dont pay me hoildays, dont pay me pension and yes if you can get away with it give me as little hours as possible to insure that you pay the min cost for me!

You might not have said that but thats what you imply.

Didn't say it, didn't imply it either.

Osgoodisgood · 07-11-2009 11:21PM

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

We do not have a high labour cost base and we have criminally low corporation taxes

See what happens when you don't actually read the post before frothing off on some ill advised rant? I said we had an overcooked cost base, I never mentioned labour. You did.

the only major cost to business here is local govt charges and red tape, and that mostly affects small businesses not giant mega corporations like coca cola (who usually get corporate welfare cheques to set up here anyway).

Nonsense. You don't think, for example, being stuck on a rainy rock on the very edge of the continent, where costs are high to begin with before looking at crippling logistical overheads and ludicrous insurance bills have something to do with it? And if you can magic away those issues what is stopping these "mega" companies from enjoying this corporate Utopia you describe? Why are they leaving in such a hurry?

The entire rust belt in the US was created by profitable US companies moving overseas to make even more profits.

Well, some did as you describe. Some others moved in an attempt to make a profit in the first place. Some, like Wal-Mart didn't move at all, they just bought more goods from cheaper foreign suppliers. Does this have anything at all to do with Ireland's uncompetitiveness?

Outsourcing is not the result of a company going bankrupt and gosh darn it having no choice but to cut costs, its usally them sitting in the board room saying "well were making €500m here...but we could be making €700m over here....lets move over here...because €500m is just not enough" (and nothing ever is, its an endless race to the bottom to desperatly and infinitly raise profits or shareholder value)

Big Michael Moore fan are we?

Also, the notion that we could compete on manufacturing as a future economic model is absurd, this is not 1995 anymore, we will never be able to compete with eastern european wages, we need to find other niches in the global economy.

Manufacturing isn't just assembling PCs. It's also developing software. And we can't compete in either. Assuming Paddy O'Reilly doesn't stumble over the cure to cancer sometime soon, where is the magic bullet going to come from?

Pacing Mule · 08-11-2009 01:02AM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Volvic and coca cola are the same company just for information and boycotting purposes~!

Deep River Rock is Coca Colas water brand.

Boycott Coca Cola

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