Failing to see how ridiculous religion is until you escape it

liamw · 05-11-2009 03:45PM #1

I always found this one interesting, particularly becuase I guess I've been there before to some degree when I was a kid.

I'm constantly baffled by how some of my friends who are quite rational, logical and critical thinkers in general, don't laugh at the idea of heaven and hell and god and prayers and a resurrection and .... etc.

It really came to light yesterday while talking to a friend. I made a joke about how I had joined the Church of Scientology (he knows I'm atheist), and the conversation went like this:

'I've joined the Chruch of Scientology'
'haha have you booked a good seat on the spaceship? lol'
'yep, first class, only €150 extra per month, have you been saying your prayers so you can go to heaven?'

Needless to say, he did not take kindly to that remark. He said I need to stop joking about religion and how it isn't a joke. Apparently it's just my opinion that religion is ridiculous and not a fact...

Isn't this some proof of brainwashing? Ever since I stepped away from relgion and started studying the actual evidence for it, I gradually came to realise that heaven is just, if not, more ridiculous a concept than the spaceship.

On a related point, whenever I go to a mass now, I always notice how absolutely ridiculous the whole thing is. It's weird how you don't see it untilyou step outside of it. Anyone else feel this way?

silent sage · 05-11-2009 04:30PM

Yes, I do. I find your anecdote to be a possible indication of brainwashing.

During my holy communion, I was given the daunting task of singing the song "Jesus sat down in the shade of a tree" on the alter in front of a packed church. The sheer confusion of being instructed as a child by figures of authority to sing some tune about a guy, and concept, that I had no grasp of was quite detrimental to my young impressionable psyche. I'm off to brush my teeth and think about that.

As you say, when you step outside religion and study the evidence for it, you can find how ridiculous it sounds.

Mena · 05-11-2009 04:35PM

You think escaping it shows the ridiculousness, try never having been part of it and then taking a peek in... It's positively bonkers.

Turtwig · 05-11-2009 04:37PM

Mena wrote: »

You think escaping it shows the ridiculousness, try never having been part of it and then taking a peek in... It's positively bonkers.

Lucky you.:(

cavedave · 05-11-2009 04:50PM

Money is just an illusion. It has no intrinsic value. You spend all your time slaving away to flip a few bits in a banks computer system. Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

Calibos · 05-11-2009 04:53PM

'I've joined the Chruch of Scientology'
'haha have you booked a good seat on the spaceship? lol'
'yep, first class, only €150 extra per month, have you been saying your prayers so you can go to heaven?'

Needless to say, he did not take kindly to that remark. He said I need to stop joking about religion and how it isn't a joke. Apparently it's just my opinion that religion is ridiculous and not a fact...

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

PDN · 05-11-2009 04:55PM

Calibos wrote: »

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

Turtwig · 05-11-2009 04:57PM

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

NothingMan · 05-11-2009 05:02PM

I almost giggle when i'm at a wedding / Christening / Funeral (well I have more of a serious mindset here) When he talks about the body and the blood and holds the stuff up towards heaven and the bell rings. It is unbelievable how the same people think so much hocus pocus is crazy but lap this stuff up.

And to think I use to wear a white robe and ring those bells

Wotzit · 05-11-2009 05:14PM

I completely agree with you OP, I really just can't fathom how millions of people can say they believe in something that just sounds like a ridiculous fairytale story to me.

As far as I can see it, I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny - yet I am looked at with utter amazement when I say I don't believe in God. Show me some evidence!!!! then I'll believe it...but until then....

Goduznt Xzst · 05-11-2009 05:24PM

Well from being a believer once you should also have taken with you some perspective. I am no more intelligent now than when I was a believer, my IQ has remained fairly constant. What has changed though is the amount of knowledge I've absorbed which has affected my opinion.

When you grow up into a Religion, surround yourself with the Religious, and learn that they all believe the same things that you do your brain tells you that given the current available information you too should believe it as fact.

For instance, I've been told the Earth rotates the Sun and not vice versa, I've never personally done the maths to prove this, or studied the proofs of it but I accept it because, well the society I live in accepts it. There is no need for me to prove it to myself as I trust that the people in the world that would know the proofs are not lying to me.

Your friend, who believes in prayer and heaven, believes these equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow believers he is surrounded by.

When I talk to people who are religious I remember the conviction that I used to have and how I reasoned that their opinions where obviously wrong. I also know the mountain mentally they have to climb for their opinions to change, and how, for me, any form of jeering or mocking just strengthened my convictions that these weren't Gods people.

Zombrex · 05-11-2009 05:42PM

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

This forum? Try the internet :P

Flamed Diving · 05-11-2009 05:57PM

Wicknight wrote: »

This forum? Try the internet :P

The internet? Try a born-again Christians smile.

Osgoodisgood · 05-11-2009 07:12PM

Calibos wrote: »

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

I don't follow. Where was the hypocritical bit?

jif · 05-11-2009 07:27PM

Ive seen 2 posts in this thread which should probably should have been deleted, is this seriously (in the internet sense of seriously

) an atheists forum? it has an awfull stench of religion off it.

Calibos · 05-11-2009 07:41PM

What I meant is that the example given is such a prime example of compartmentalisation ie. Scientology is obvious nonsense and fair game for ridicule and jokes at its expense, but my religion which to the outside observor is just as wacky, is quite plainly true and jokes about it will be met with indignance at the lack of respect shown to my beliefs.

Are there really people who can slag scientology in one breadth and the very next second take offence at a perceived slight on their practices.

Anyway, I don't disbelieve the quote. I know there are people like that where you just want to say to them, "Are you for real!!" You're left speechless. My post was more like faux disbelief to highlight the hypocracy of the friend in the example.

philologos · 05-11-2009 07:44PM

liamw wrote: »

I'm constantly baffled by how some of my friends who are quite rational, logical and critical thinkers in general, don't laugh at the idea of heaven and hell and god and prayers and a resurrection and .... etc.

I guess, because for a lot of people, these are reality. The Resurrection is the single most important thing to coming to Christian faith, there is nothing more crucial than this. Prayer, is also a key focus in my life.

Sure, ridicule all these things as much as you want, but it's not going to get you or I anywhere. People are going to follow Christianity or other faiths whether you like it or not.

Osgoodisgood · 05-11-2009 08:01PM

jif wrote: »

Ive seen 2 posts in this thread which should probably should have been deleted, is this seriously (in the internet sense of seriously ) an atheists forum? it has an awfull stench of religion off it.

It sure does. If you're "connected" you can come here and drop a smelly load with impunity. Just don't get any ideas about it being a 2 way street.

Warning and lecture arriving...................soon!

FruitLover · 05-11-2009 08:11PM

cavedave wrote: »

Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

Eh... wha? How can money possibly be compared to religion? Money buys tangible benefits and comforts. The flat I live in is rented with money. The computer you're reading this on was bought with money. Why not ask one of the many homeless currently freezing on the streets of Ireland how "worthless" these tokens are?

A nice big rolleyes to you and your attempt at mysterious post-modernism :rolleyes:

liamw · 05-11-2009 08:13PM

cavedave wrote: »

Money is just an illusion. It has no intrinsic value. You spend all your time slaving away to flip a few bits in a banks computer system. Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

What the hell are you talking about...

Dades · 05-11-2009 08:14PM

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Warning and lecture arriving...................soon!

Now in fact...

jif - this is Boards.ie - ALL posters are wecome. Except ones that don't understand this concept and introduce themselves like you did.

Kthxbye.

Sam Vimes · 05-11-2009 08:14PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Sure, ridicule all these things as much as you want, but it's not going to get you or I anywhere. People are going to follow Christianity or other faiths whether you like it or not.

From the "Most annoying theist lines of argument" thread:

doctoremma wrote: »

"Well, there's so many of us, you're just going to have to put up with it". You can practically see the smug grin on their face as they type this. I'm having to put up with all the time, don't you know...

Brilliant

And we're getting complaints that those arguments are rare and misrepresentative :pac:

liamw · 05-11-2009 08:15PM

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

Eh, I didn't just make that up. Why would you think I made that up? That's exactly how I used to feel. I was just giving an example of how, when your part of a religion you don't see how ridiculous it all is until you step outside it.

liamw · 05-11-2009 08:19PM

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Your friend, who believes in prayer and heaven, believes these equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow believers he is surrounded by.

Bullsh*t. Excuse my language. It's not like he's a devoted Christian at all. He probably goes to mass three times a year. How do you think this sounds:

"Your friend, who is a democrat, believes this political system equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow democrats he is surrounded by."

Oh, and go ahead and slag me for believing the earth goes around the sun, see if I get offended.

Sam Vimes · 05-11-2009 08:21PM

liamw wrote: »

Bullsh*t. Excuse my language. It's not like he's a devoted Christian at all. He probably goes to mass three times a year. How do you think this sounds:

"Your friend, who is a democrat, believes this political system equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow democrats he is surrounded by."

It's the problem when you're dealing with a topic that someone has an emotional connection to. It doesn't matter if what you're saying is right, any joke made about the topic is taken as a personal insult

philologos · 05-11-2009 08:22PM

Sam: I fail to see what you have to put up with. My faith is mine, and my own. You guys can disbelieve if you wish. That's a part of a free society. We have freedom of conscience. Hence why my post is valid.

Sam Vimes · 05-11-2009 08:26PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam: I fail to see what you have to put up with. My faith is mine, and my own. You guys can disbelieve if you wish. That's a part of a free society. We have freedom of conscience. Hence why my post is valid.

What your post is is completely irrelevant. liamw said he was baffled by people who believe in the resurrection etc and you pointing out that the people who believe it are not going to vanish into a puff of smoke does not effect his level of bafflement. No one said they would be going anywhere. That's why it's on the list of "most annoying theist lines of argument"

philologos · 05-11-2009 08:27PM

I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

Sam Vimes · 05-11-2009 08:30PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

Yes it is patently obvious, it's because people don't realise how ridiculous their own religion is until they escape it as the thread title suggests. Everyone laughs at creationists too but they don't laugh themselves, there are a lot of them and they don't appear to be going anywhere but that in no way makes their claims any less laughable. It's an argument ad populum

liamw · 05-11-2009 08:30PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's the problem when you're dealing with a topic that someone has an emotional connection to. It doesn't matter if what you're saying is right, any joke made about the topic is taken as a personal insult

To be honest, if you believe something and your convicted to it, I don't see why you should get so insulted. I do understand your point on the emotional connection, a lot of people have emotional connection to their political views too though.

He should have argued why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous and nothing like the spaceship. Instead he just gets angry...

Sam Vimes · 05-11-2009 08:33PM

liamw wrote: »

To be honest, if you believe something and your convicted to it, I don't see why you should get so insulted. I do understand your point on the emotional connection, a lot of people have emotional connection to their political views too though.

He should have argued why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous and nothing like the spaceship. Instead he just gets angry...

Of course he should but to dredge this point up for the second time today, the people who can make an argument do so and the people who can't get angry. The reason he didn't argue why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous is that he's got nothing to say

Failing to see how ridiculous religion is until you escape it

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