Failing to see how ridiculous religion is until you escape it

liamw

I always found this one interesting, particularly becuase I guess I've been there before to some degree when I was a kid.

I'm constantly baffled by how some of my friends who are quite rational, logical and critical thinkers in general, don't laugh at the idea of heaven and hell and god and prayers and a resurrection and .... etc.

It really came to light yesterday while talking to a friend. I made a joke about how I had joined the Church of Scientology (he knows I'm atheist), and the conversation went like this:

'I've joined the Chruch of Scientology'
'haha have you booked a good seat on the spaceship? lol'
'yep, first class, only €150 extra per month, have you been saying your prayers so you can go to heaven?'

Needless to say, he did not take kindly to that remark. He said I need to stop joking about religion and how it isn't a joke. Apparently it's just my opinion that religion is ridiculous and not a fact...

Isn't this some proof of brainwashing? Ever since I stepped away from relgion and started studying the actual evidence for it, I gradually came to realise that heaven is just, if not, more ridiculous a concept than the spaceship.

On a related point, whenever I go to a mass now, I always notice how absolutely ridiculous the whole thing is. It's weird how you don't see it untilyou step outside of it. Anyone else feel this way?

silent sage

Yes, I do. I find your anecdote to be a possible indication of brainwashing.

During my holy communion, I was given the daunting task of singing the song "Jesus sat down in the shade of a tree" on the alter in front of a packed church. The sheer confusion of being instructed as a child by figures of authority to sing some tune about a guy, and concept, that I had no grasp of was quite detrimental to my young impressionable psyche. I'm off to brush my teeth and think about that.

As you say, when you step outside religion and study the evidence for it, you can find how ridiculous it sounds.

Mena

You think escaping it shows the ridiculousness, try never having been part of it and then taking a peek in... It's positively bonkers.

Turtwig

Mena wrote: »

You think escaping it shows the ridiculousness, try never having been part of it and then taking a peek in... It's positively bonkers.

Lucky you.:(

cavedave

Money is just an illusion. It has no intrinsic value. You spend all your time slaving away to flip a few bits in a banks computer system. Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

Calibos

'I've joined the Chruch of Scientology'
'haha have you booked a good seat on the spaceship? lol'
'yep, first class, only €150 extra per month, have you been saying your prayers so you can go to heaven?'

Needless to say, he did not take kindly to that remark. He said I need to stop joking about religion and how it isn't a joke. Apparently it's just my opinion that religion is ridiculous and not a fact...

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

PDN

Calibos wrote: »

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

NothingMan

I almost giggle when i'm at a wedding / Christening / Funeral (well I have more of a serious mindset here) When he talks about the body and the blood and holds the stuff up towards heaven and the bell rings. It is unbelievable how the same people think so much hocus pocus is crazy but lap this stuff up.

And to think I use to wear a white robe and ring those bells

Wotzit

I completely agree with you OP, I really just can't fathom how millions of people can say they believe in something that just sounds like a ridiculous fairytale story to me.

As far as I can see it, I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny - yet I am looked at with utter amazement when I say I don't believe in God. Show me some evidence!!!! then I'll believe it...but until then....

Goduznt Xzst

Well from being a believer once you should also have taken with you some perspective. I am no more intelligent now than when I was a believer, my IQ has remained fairly constant. What has changed though is the amount of knowledge I've absorbed which has affected my opinion.

When you grow up into a Religion, surround yourself with the Religious, and learn that they all believe the same things that you do your brain tells you that given the current available information you too should believe it as fact.

For instance, I've been told the Earth rotates the Sun and not vice versa, I've never personally done the maths to prove this, or studied the proofs of it but I accept it because, well the society I live in accepts it. There is no need for me to prove it to myself as I trust that the people in the world that would know the proofs are not lying to me.

Your friend, who believes in prayer and heaven, believes these equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow believers he is surrounded by.

When I talk to people who are religious I remember the conviction that I used to have and how I reasoned that their opinions where obviously wrong. I also know the mountain mentally they have to climb for their opinions to change, and how, for me, any form of jeering or mocking just strengthened my convictions that these weren't Gods people.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

This forum? Try the internet :P

Flamed Diving

Wicknight wrote: »

This forum? Try the internet :P

The internet? Try a born-again Christians smile.

Osgoodisgood

Calibos wrote: »

Thats too hypocritical to be genuine. You made that one up didn't you....didn't you

I don't follow. Where was the hypocritical bit?

jif

Ive seen 2 posts in this thread which should probably should have been deleted, is this seriously (in the internet sense of seriously ) an atheists forum? it has an awfull stench of religion off it.

Calibos

What I meant is that the example given is such a prime example of compartmentalisation ie. Scientology is obvious nonsense and fair game for ridicule and jokes at its expense, but my religion which to the outside observor is just as wacky, is quite plainly true and jokes about it will be met with indignance at the lack of respect shown to my beliefs.

Are there really people who can slag scientology in one breadth and the very next second take offence at a perceived slight on their practices.

Anyway, I don't disbelieve the quote. I know there are people like that where you just want to say to them, "Are you for real!!" You're left speechless. My post was more like faux disbelief to highlight the hypocracy of the friend in the example.

philologos

liamw wrote: »

I'm constantly baffled by how some of my friends who are quite rational, logical and critical thinkers in general, don't laugh at the idea of heaven and hell and god and prayers and a resurrection and .... etc.

I guess, because for a lot of people, these are reality. The Resurrection is the single most important thing to coming to Christian faith, there is nothing more crucial than this. Prayer, is also a key focus in my life.

Sure, ridicule all these things as much as you want, but it's not going to get you or I anywhere. People are going to follow Christianity or other faiths whether you like it or not.

Osgoodisgood

jif wrote: »

Ive seen 2 posts in this thread which should probably should have been deleted, is this seriously (in the internet sense of seriously ) an atheists forum? it has an awfull stench of religion off it.

It sure does. If you're "connected" you can come here and drop a smelly load with impunity. Just don't get any ideas about it being a 2 way street.

Warning and lecture arriving...................soon!

FruitLover

cavedave wrote: »

Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

Eh... wha? How can money possibly be compared to religion? Money buys tangible benefits and comforts. The flat I live in is rented with money. The computer you're reading this on was bought with money. Why not ask one of the many homeless currently freezing on the streets of Ireland how "worthless" these tokens are?

A nice big rolleyes to you and your attempt at mysterious post-modernism :rolleyes:

liamw

cavedave wrote: »

Money is just an illusion. It has no intrinsic value. You spend all your time slaving away to flip a few bits in a banks computer system. Someday you'll see how ridiculous all your efforts to gain worthless tokens have been.

What the hell are you talking about...

Dades

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

Warning and lecture arriving...................soon!

Now in fact...

jif - this is Boards.ie - ALL posters are wecome. Except ones that don't understand this concept and introduce themselves like you did.

Kthxbye.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Sure, ridicule all these things as much as you want, but it's not going to get you or I anywhere. People are going to follow Christianity or other faiths whether you like it or not.

From the "Most annoying theist lines of argument" thread:

doctoremma wrote: »

"Well, there's so many of us, you're just going to have to put up with it". You can practically see the smug grin on their face as they type this. I'm having to put up with all the time, don't you know...

Brilliant

And we're getting complaints that those arguments are rare and misrepresentative :pac:

liamw

PDN wrote: »

I think that of about 99% of the conversations and encounters that are reported in this forum.

Eh, I didn't just make that up. Why would you think I made that up? That's exactly how I used to feel. I was just giving an example of how, when your part of a religion you don't see how ridiculous it all is until you step outside it.

liamw

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Your friend, who believes in prayer and heaven, believes these equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow believers he is surrounded by.

Bullsh*t. Excuse my language. It's not like he's a devoted Christian at all. He probably goes to mass three times a year. How do you think this sounds:

"Your friend, who is a democrat, believes this political system equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow democrats he is surrounded by."

Oh, and go ahead and slag me for believing the earth goes around the sun, see if I get offended.

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

Bullsh*t. Excuse my language. It's not like he's a devoted Christian at all. He probably goes to mass three times a year. How do you think this sounds:

"Your friend, who is a democrat, believes this political system equally to how you accept the Earth rotates the Sun. If you belittle this you are not only belittling him, but also his family, his friends and their families. The complete circle of fellow democrats he is surrounded by."

It's the problem when you're dealing with a topic that someone has an emotional connection to. It doesn't matter if what you're saying is right, any joke made about the topic is taken as a personal insult

philologos

Sam: I fail to see what you have to put up with. My faith is mine, and my own. You guys can disbelieve if you wish. That's a part of a free society. We have freedom of conscience. Hence why my post is valid.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam: I fail to see what you have to put up with. My faith is mine, and my own. You guys can disbelieve if you wish. That's a part of a free society. We have freedom of conscience. Hence why my post is valid.

What your post is is completely irrelevant. liamw said he was baffled by people who believe in the resurrection etc and you pointing out that the people who believe it are not going to vanish into a puff of smoke does not effect his level of bafflement. No one said they would be going anywhere. That's why it's on the list of "most annoying theist lines of argument"

philologos

I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

Yes it is patently obvious, it's because people don't realise how ridiculous their own religion is until they escape it as the thread title suggests. Everyone laughs at creationists too but they don't laugh themselves, there are a lot of them and they don't appear to be going anywhere but that in no way makes their claims any less laughable. It's an argument ad populum

liamw

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's the problem when you're dealing with a topic that someone has an emotional connection to. It doesn't matter if what you're saying is right, any joke made about the topic is taken as a personal insult

To be honest, if you believe something and your convicted to it, I don't see why you should get so insulted. I do understand your point on the emotional connection, a lot of people have emotional connection to their political views too though.

He should have argued why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous and nothing like the spaceship. Instead he just gets angry...

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

To be honest, if you believe something and your convicted to it, I don't see why you should get so insulted. I do understand your point on the emotional connection, a lot of people have emotional connection to their political views too though.

He should have argued why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous and nothing like the spaceship. Instead he just gets angry...

Of course he should but to dredge this point up for the second time today, the people who can make an argument do so and the people who can't get angry. The reason he didn't argue why his belief in heaven is not ridiculous is that he's got nothing to say

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

I'm simply saying that I can't reconcile how he thinks the spaceship is completely different to heaven, unless I introduce brainwashing or compartmentalization.

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

I'm simply saying that I can't reconcile how he thinks the spaceship is completely different to heaven, unless I introduce brainwashing or compartmentalization.

It's because christianity is true and scientology isn't, duuuuh :rolleyes:

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes it is patently obvious, it's because people don't realise how ridiculous their own religion is until they escape it as the thread title suggests. Everyone laughs at creationists too but they don't laugh themselves, there are a lot of them and they don't appear to be going anywhere but that in no way makes their claims any less laughable. It's an argument ad populum

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think 'lack of belief in a religion' makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at 'a lack of belief in a religion', it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.

Atheists hardly agree on anything other than there is no God.
Christians on the other hand must agree on.
God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
Resurrection of Jesus.
Original Sin.
etc etc

Laugh at an atheism and your only really laughing at one idea;laugh at creationism and you're laughing at a sh1t load of crap.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.

Who made an argument against it? All he said was that it baffles him. What leads you right back where you started is pointing out that people believe the thing that baffles him and they're going to whether he likes it or not. We know that, no one ever suggested otherwise, it's a pointless statement, or to use your own words "it's not a particularly great argument against it". He remains as baffled after the argument ad populum as before.

philologos

liamw wrote: »

Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think 'lack of belief in a religion' makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at 'a lack of belief in a religion', it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.

Indeed, I agree with this also.

Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, I agree with this also.

Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

Who said he was using it as a means of encouraging debate?

Jakkass wrote: »

It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

Jakkass, you have said yourself many times that you believe in christianity and the only thing that would change your mind is the christian god being totally disproven. If that's not closed I don't know what is

Zombrex

liamw wrote: »

Isn't this some proof of brainwashing?

Not really. Humans are naturally prone to believing in things like religion.

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, I agree with this also.

Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

*Bangs Head*
(Sorry this misconception is far too common)

Agnosticism is a qualifier of NOT KNOWING.

You cannot be an "agnostic"
You are either theist or atheist.
And then you choose your strength of that belief set.

Agnostics can be theists or non theists e.g
Agnostic Atheist - I don't believe in a God but I don't know if there is one or not.
Agnostic Theist. - I believe in a God but I don't know if there is one or not
Then there's:
Definite Atheist. - I know there is no God.
Definite Theist - I know there is a God.

The latter two are nuts imo.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

Well I think we can both agree that discussions with theists are unfulfilling

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

Well I think we can both agree that discussions with theists are unfulfilling

I was referring to Christian - Secular dialogue rather than anything else. Of course I like a chat with my Christian friends as well

I understand if talking to me is a bit drab after all the times we've been through Wicky :pac:

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, I agree with this also.

Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

You know, I'm not here to slag people off, the reason I might slag someones beliefs it to try figure out why they believe in them. It's an interesting experiment, most of the time the religious person just gets angry and has no argument.

Belief in religion to the point where you devote a lot of time to it baffles me. You wouldn't devote your time to anything else that has zero evidence and sounds as ridiculous. You can't deny that heaven and hell sound like ridiculous concepts.

I just don't get it! I don't get why not just say that when you die, that's it. The most obvious explanation, no reason to think otherwise. Why you would belief in all these supernatural events, when you could just attribute them to myth. Why believe in absolte morals, when it's obvious that morals change.

philologos

Sam: I'm willing to accept I could be wrong. Given what I have been through in life, what I have experienced, and what I have come to know I don't think it is very likely. I'm not willing to get into a big long debate about it, I'm merely commenting on my experiences I've had speaking one to one.

I've rarely encountered people in real life as vehemently against the idea of God as on this forum, I have encountered a lot of people who are curious though which is pretty cool.

liamw wrote: »

You know, I'm not here to slag people off, the reason I might slag someones beliefs it to try figure out why they believe in them. It's an interesting experiment, most of the time the religious person just gets angry and has no argument.

Belief in religion to the point where you devote a lot of time to it baffles me. You wouldn't devote your time to anything else that has zero evidence and sounds as ridiculous. You can't deny that heaven and hell sound like ridiculous concepts.

I just don't get it! I don't get why not just say that when you die, that's it. The most obvious explanation, no reason to think otherwise. Why you would belief in all these supernatural events, when you could just attribute them to myth. Why believe in absolte morals, when it's obvious that morals change.

I can appreciate this. However, perhaps instead of laughing, if you want to find out about their beliefs they might find it a bit more comfortable if you ask them straight out. A lot of people find the idea of talking about God in public to be daunting, but I've found over the last while if it's done in the right way it can be very interesting.

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

I've rarely encountered people in real life as vehemently against the idea of God as on this forum, I have encountered a lot of people who are curious though which is pretty cool.

That's why it's the atheist forum A lot of people on this forum have thought a lot more critically than the average person about belief in religion, and have views and opinions on it.

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

I can appreciate this. However, perhaps instead of laughing, if you want to find out about their beliefs they might find it a bit more comfortable if you ask them straight out. A lot of people find the idea of talking about God in public to be daunting, but I've found over the last while if it's done in the right way it can be very interesting.

You're probably right. Thanks for the advice

chop86

Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!

silent sage

Wicknight wrote: »

Not really. Humans are naturally prone to believing in things like religion.

Yes, but surely being urged to repeat the following over and over again at a very young age is going to have an impact on their judgement...

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all things seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
One in Being with the Father
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
He came down from heaven:
by the power of the holy spirit
He was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day, He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen. "

I can't see someone coming up with that on their own accord.

MagicMarker

chop86 wrote: »

Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!

This is a common thought, Bertrand Russell said the same thing and probably many before him.

liamw

chop86 wrote: »

Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!

I actually think the only way it will be explained is through investigation of brain evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg