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Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

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Comments

  • #422
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    As Cliste said, not relevant to the point I make.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Who support it so much they never speak it.

    They clearly would like their children to speak it though (all the gael schools) and this means they want the language to flourish.
    It depends on how they approach this particular sacred cow. After all, the constitution used to favour the Catholic church

    Does the public favour the catholic church now? No, but it favours the Irish language. You may think they are stupid for supporting, as DF would put it, a "backwater language" but unfortunately for you, you are in a minority.



    donegalfella wrote: »
    I can't see the IMF deciding that paying hundreds of thousands of euros to render county council development reports as Gaeilge, and then leave them gathering dust in back offices, is a good use of public funds. Can you?

    Forget the IMF, you know it wont happen. If there is a way of doing this whils keeping Irish as an official language lets hear it? Being realistic, Irish wont be dropped as an official language, that option is out.

    BTW according to you leaving old books and articles to gather dust in national libraries and museums is a waste of public funds also.


  • #423
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #424
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Exactly its one thing to propose your own kid learn it, its another thing to force other peoples kids to learn it even if its against the wishes of the kid and their parents.

    That just doesn't make sense. If the kid doesn't want to and the parents don't want the kid to speak Irish then why should the kid have to take classes in Irish?

    I disagree that you need to live abroad to see that having our own language is good. I think having Irish is good and have no problem with people speaking. I would like to speak it myself but I can't afford the dedicate the time to doing so when it would be of no benefit to me in my career or personal life as nobody else I know speaks Irish only so I'm not missing anything by not being able to speak it. My desire to learn also depends on the day though lol :D

    I am however completely against it being compulsory in schools as I hated the language in school and hated the idea of being forced to learn something that wasn't going to be useful to me after school. I'd like to see it made optional because I think I would have more interest in it if it was optional TBH.

    As for printing documents in it, waste of time if nobody is reading them, it does nothing for the Irish agenda. Saying it encourages people to learn the language to get a job doesn't wash with me, who dreams of growing up to write books/translate documents nobody reads?


  • #425
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    thebman wrote: »
    Exactly its one thing to propose your own kid learn it, its another thing to force other peoples kids to learn it even if its against the wishes of the kid and their parents.

    That just doesn't make sense. If the kid doesn't want to and the parents don't want the kid to speak Irish then why should the kid have to take classes in Irish?

    I disagree that you need to live abroad to see that having our own language is good. I think having Irish is good and have no problem with people speaking. I would like to speak it myself but I can't afford the dedicate the time to doing so when it would be of no benefit to me in my career or personal life as nobody else I know speaks Irish only so I'm not missing anything by not being able to speak it. My desire to learn also depends on the day though lol :D

    I am however completely against it being compulsory in schools as I hated the language in school and hated the idea of being forced to learn something that wasn't going to be useful to me after school. I'd like to see it made optional because I think I would have more interest in it if it was optional TBH.

    As for printing documents in it, waste of time if nobody is reading them, it does nothing for the Irish agenda. Saying it encourages people to learn the language to get a job doesn't wash with me, who dreams of growing up to write books/translate documents nobody reads?

    Well i think you and DF are probably right that all official documentation in Irish is a waste of time and money.

    The problem with Irish, and probably all languages taught in Irish schools, is that you learn it for years and years and your still not fluent in it, i did honours french for 6 years and at the end i still wouldn't class myself as being particularly fluent in it. I think that a review of the methods of teaching languages needs to be done and change to be implemented.

    As regards compulsory or not well my opinion is that it should defo be compulsary in primary school, and probably up until Junior Cert. After that it should be optional, just my opinion


  • #426
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I've a comment to through into the mix. Firstly, I share Donegalfella's views exactly.

    I believe time would be better spent teaching English grammar and punctuation. I am consistently impressed by continentals' ability to speak and write English well, and by their ability to understand the mechanics of language. They know what subjects, objects, nominitives, accusatives and past participles are, and they tend to know them well. Irish people receive no such training, and not only does it stifle their ability to write cogent English, but it acts as a hindrance when it comes to learning useful foreign languages as well. I'm not saying that the obligatory teaching of Irish is the main factor here, but it is almost certainly *a* factor.


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  • #427
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Furet wrote: »
    I've a comment to through into the mix. Firstly, I share Donegalfella's views exactly.

    I believe time would be better spent teaching English grammar and punctuation. I am consistently impressed by continentals' ability to speak and write English well, and by their ability to understand the mechanics of language. They know what subjects, objects, nominitives, accusatives and past participles are, and they tend to know them well. Irish people receive no such training, and not only does it stifle their ability to write cogent English, but it acts as a hindrance when it comes to learning useful foreign languages as well. I'm not saying that the obligitory teaching of Irish is the main factor here, but it is almost certainly *a* factor.

    +1


  • #428
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,500 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Furet wrote: »
    I believe time would be better spent teaching English grammar and punctuation. I am consistently impressed by continentals' ability to speak and write English well, and by their ability to understand the mechanics of language. They know what subjects, objects, nominitives, accusatives and past participles are, and they tend to know them well. Irish people receive no such training, and not only does it stifle their ability to write cogent English, but it acts as a hindrance when it comes to learning useful foreign languages as well. I'm not saying that the obligitory teaching of Irish is the main factor here, but it is almost certainly *a* factor.
    +1. I recall a particular train-wreck of a thread in AH a while back, where people were seriously claiming that you'd have to be some kind of weird languages nerd to even know what a verb is, let alone a past participle!


  • #429
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Alun wrote: »
    +1. I recall a particular train-wreck of a thread in AH a while back, where people were seriously claiming that you'd have to be some kind of weird languages nerd to even know what a verb is, let alone a past participle!

    Yeah that seems to be the general opinion and not just on boards.ie.


  • #430
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    @Furet: I agree completely. A grounding in basic linguistics would do wonders for all students. It would also reduce the amount of time spent on the basics when teaching other languages - particularly Indo-European languages, which the majority of second-level students here study (the only exceptions I can think of are Japanese, Finnish, and Hungarian). Even something simple like learning the IPA, and how to pronounce non-English sounds.


  • #431
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Aard wrote: »
    @Furet: I agree completely. A grounding in basic linguistics would do wonders for all students. It would also reduce the amount of time spent on the basics when teaching other languages - particularly Indo-European languages, which the majority of second-level students here study (the only exceptions I can think of are Japanese, Finnish, and Hungarian). Even something simple like learning the IPA, and how to pronounce non-English sounds.

    Yeah when we did linguistics in final year, I was just thinking why didn't we do this years ago.


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  • #432
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    T runner wrote: »
    They clearly would like their children to speak it though (all the gael schools) and this means they want the language to flourish.
    Only a minority attend Gael Scoils and even then, the primary reason is social, not linguistic.
    T runner wrote: »
    Does the public favour the catholic church now? No, but it favours the Irish language.
    What are you saying here? Irish is more popular than Jesus?:eek:

    More people attend Mass than speak Irish and the Church is funded by its parishoners.
    T runner wrote: »
    You may think they are stupid for supporting, as DF would put it, a "backwater language" but unfortunately for you, you are in a minority.
    Except that I do not think they are stupid and I would not categorise Irish as a 'backwater' language.

    Irish, as taught today is a pastiche, artificial revival of the original Irish language and dialects, mixed up with a fake myhology invented during the Gaelic revival. This was motivated, not by cultural goals but by the need to promote an anti-British movement. It bears some resemblance to the original Gaelic-speaking culture of some Irish people but it is not authentic.

    The present 'support' for Irish is based partly on xenophobic sentiment and partly on on the knowlege that Irish is a means of getting a few quid more out of the government.

    Real supporters of Irish don't need to be paid to speak it.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    It's just a matter of time.


  • #433
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    And do you oppose compulsory English and Maths?


  • #434
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    And do you oppose compulsory English and Maths?
    English and maths are required skills for the labour market. (Maths not because I need them all to know what x+y is, but for the purpose of their ability to logically approach problems. I seriously had a guy have to look up a percentage calculator the other day, and he's a business to business sales guy who was trying to decide a discount. Oh boy...)


  • #435
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Alcatel wrote: »
    English and maths are required skills for the labour market. (Maths not because I need them all to know what x+y is, but for the purpose of their ability to logically approach problems. I seriously had a guy have to look up a percentage calculator the other day, and he's a business to business sales guy who was trying to decide a discount. Oh boy...)


    I'm still waiting for evidence of how Shakespeare, Yeats, Pythagoras and trigonometry are "required skills for the labour market", yes the one and only labour market where we all need these amazingly useless skills.


  • #436
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Furet wrote: »
    I believe time would be better spent teaching English grammar and punctuation. I am consistently impressed by continentals' ability to speak and write English well, and by their ability to understand the mechanics of language. They know what subjects, objects, nominitives, accusatives and past participles are, and they tend to know them well. Irish people receive no such training, and not only does it stifle their ability to write cogent English, but it acts as a hindrance when it comes to learning useful foreign languages as well. I'm not saying that the obligatory teaching of Irish is the main factor here, but it is almost certainly *a* factor.

    Alternatively, you could drop those utterly useless and pointless wasters like Austen, Shakespeare and Yeats and do all of the above instead in your own subject. There's a concept.


  • #437
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for evidence of how Shakespeare, Yeats, Pythagoras and trigonometry are "required skills for the labour market", yes the one and only labour market where we all need these amazingly useless skills.

    You don't just read old books an poetry in English class. We did comparative studies on our English course for leaving cert. and I found it a very useful skill to be developing as when working in companies being able to compare and write reports comparing different products etc...

    As for maths, just because your not using something, does not mean it is not useful to someone in another line of work. Besides Pythagoras theorem is necessary for pub/table quizes :P


  • #438
    LimeFruitGum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,012 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    Sleepy wrote: »
    In my last job we produced a report to get the LA's accounts from their financial system. A five figure amount was spent on getting the accounts translated by an Irish university. Half the words on the resulting translation were made up gibberish according to our resident gaelgor... Money well spent?

    Indeed, it certainly was not in that case. That is a mad price for translating annual accounts.:eek:
    But for the past couple of years, there has been a system of tested and fully-accredited English-Irish translators who can handle that kind of work, and therefore avoid that kind of scenario you had in your last job.

    Just because someone can speak a 2nd language, whether it be Irish, Russian or whatever, doesn't mean they're going to be competent translators.


  • #439
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Alternatively, you could drop those utterly useless and pointless wasters like Austen, Shakespeare and Yeats and do all of the above instead in your own subject. There's a concept.

    Linguistics is an entirely different subject to English. Linguistics is applicable to all languages, and is more of a science subject than a language subject.


  • #440
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for evidence of how Shakespeare, Yeats, Pythagoras and trigonometry are "required skills for the labour market", yes the one and only labour market where we all need these amazingly useless skills.
    If you miss that, then you miss the entire point of education. Learning maths is not about trigonometry, it's about logic skills and problem solving. Learning English is about expanding your vocabulary and ability to express oneself and ideas. Combine those two skills and you have the basis for every above average employee.

    I think the time we spend teaching Irish takes away from this, the quality of the Irish we teach is mediocre for that, and we later get no valuable skills or insights from it.


  • #441
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Alcatel, do you have a response for my post above?
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62758199&postcount=414


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  • #442
    Sleazus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sleazus


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Alternatively, you could drop those utterly useless and pointless wasters like Austen, Shakespeare and Yeats and do all of the above instead in your own subject. There's a concept.

    This is part of my problem with the Leaving Cert Irish.

    Leaving Cert English generally teaches us to understand and appreciate culture as we have experienced it (and will continue to experience it) for the best part of our lifetime.

    Sure, you may scoff, but when was the last time you encountered Shakespeare?

    It informs and shapes global culture and even the language itself. He invented the word "assassination" and the word "road". Even if you've never read Hamlet, you've probably seen The Lion King or any number of similar works.

    As for poets like Austen and Yeats, they teach us aesthetics - much as including a film on the leaving certificate course does as well (and don't say that The Truman Show, for example, isn't an important text - it's more relevant now than when it was produced). These texts feed the developing imaginations of children and (admittedly in too few cases) define how they perceive and accept the culture which they come into contact with every day.

    I'll concede it's a trite argument, but that course makes better people. And not in a snobbish "if you didn't read Joyce you're an idiot" sort of a way (that's why I'd say update the texts available for study), in a "there are people out there who don't get that District 9 is an allegory about racism" sort of way or "there are people who don't get that Ali G is a spoof" sort of way.

    I know I wouldn't have the love of popular culture that I have now were it not for those dingy, dark and gray afternoons in an overheated, stinking, overcrowded classroom with a TV set so small I couldn't read the subtitles on Cinema Paradiso.

    Irish on the other hand isn't an attempt to teach our children how to relate to the culture as it exists. It's an attempt to coerce them into a new culture. Irish culture as taught in the Leaving Certificate is relatively young - most works are under a century old. That's an indicator of how insecure we feel about it that we build the course around works which (being honest) are little read outside the classroom.

    The skills I learned in English class help me appreciate works in other languages - French novels, Japanese horror - but Irish? When have I called on anything I've learned in that class? The only use for that class would be if we had a pervasive Irish culture which was dependent on the language.

    We don't.

    The Irish culture which we encounter is hugely in English - our national theatres perform in English, our national broadcaster broadcasts in English - and we appreciate it through what we learn in English class. Even the drama on TG4 (with its subtitles) we consume using the skills we learned in English.

    English isn't about the English language. It's far more important than that.

    Irish is entirely about the language - it may have a secondary purpose of building up a cult around an attempted resurrection of the Irish culture in the language, but that is, based on the amount of time it has been taught, a failed pursuit. In that way, it is comparable to French and the way French is taught.

    Except French is far more practically useful.

    Sorry, my two cents.


  • #443
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Sleazus wrote: »
    This is part of my problem with the Leaving Cert Irish.

    Leaving Cert English generally teaches us to understand and appreciate culture as we have experienced it (and will continue to experience it) for the best part of our lifetime.

    Sure, you may scoff, but when was the last time you encountered Shakespeare?

    It informs and shapes global culture and even the language itself. He invented the word "assassination" and the word "road". Even if you've never read Hamlet, you've probably seen The Lion King or any number of similar works.

    As for poets like Austen and Yeats, they teach us aesthetics - much as including a film on the leaving certificate course does as well (and don't say that The Truman Show, for example, isn't an important text - it's more relevant now than when it was produced). These texts feed the developing imaginations of children and (admittedly in too few cases) define how they perceive and accept the culture which they come into contact with every day.

    I'll concede it's a trite argument, but that course makes better people. And not in a snobbish "if you didn't read Joyce you're an idiot" sort of a way (that's why I'd say update the texts available for study), in a "there are people out there who don't get that District 9 is an allegory about racism" sort of way or "there are people who don't get that Ali G is a spoof" sort of way.

    I know I wouldn't have the love of popular culture that I have now were it not for those dingy, dark and gray afternoons in an overheated, stinking, overcrowded classroom with a TV set so small I couldn't read the subtitles on Cinema Paradiso.

    Irish on the other hand isn't an attempt to teach our children how to relate to the culture as it exists. It's an attempt to coerce them into a new culture. Irish culture as taught in the Leaving Certificate is relatively young - most works are under a century old. That's an indicator of how insecure we feel about it that we build the course around works which (being honest) are little read outside the classroom.

    The skills I learned in English class help me appreciate works in other languages - French novels, Japanese horror - but Irish? When have I called on anything I've learned in that class? The only use for that class would be if we had a pervasive Irish culture which was dependent on the language.

    We don't.

    The Irish culture which we encounter is hugely in English - our national theatres perform in English, our national broadcaster broadcasts in English - and we appreciate it through what we learn in English class. Even the drama on TG4 (with its subtitles) we consume using the skills we learned in English.

    English isn't about the English language. It's far more important than that.

    Irish is entirely about the language - it may have a secondary purpose of building up a cult around an attempted resurrection of the Irish culture in the language, but that is, based on the amount of time it has been taught, a failed pursuit. In that way, it is comparable to French and the way French is taught.

    Except French is far more practically useful.

    Sorry, my two cents.

    That's the best post I have read here in a long time! Kudos!
    Brace yourself for the onslaught though!!!


  • #444
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Nílimid in ár gcónaí in ollchomhlacht. Táimid in ár gcónaí i dtír. Is í an Ghaeilge anam an tír. Ní féidir linn praghas ná fiúntas a chur uirthi. Ach is cósúil go bhfuil cúpla daoine ann ag iarraidh é seo a dhéanamh.

    We don't live in a megacorporation. We live in a country. The Irish language is the soul of the country. We cannot put a price or value on it. But it seems that some people are trying to do just this.


  • #445
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    topper75 wrote: »
    We don't live in a megacorporation. We live in a country. The Irish language is the soul of the country. We cannot put a price or value on it. But it seems that some people are trying to do just this.

    you can put a price on anything and everything

    the main argument here is that the language should be optional not compulsory, if there is interest from students or/and parents then no big loss right?

    whether you like it or not we live in 21st century not some idealized vision if Ireland from 18th century that you might have, thats reality face it


  • #446
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    topper75 wrote: »
    Nílimid in ár gcónaí in ollchomhlacht. Táimid in ár gcónaí i dtír. Is í an Ghaeilge anam an tír. Ní féidir linn praghas ná fiúntas a chur uirthi. Ach is cósúil go bhfuil cúpla daoine ann ag iarraidh é seo a dhéanamh.

    We don't live in a megacorporation. We live in a country. The Irish language is the soul of the country. We cannot put a price or value on it. But it seems that some people are trying to do just this.

    Can you explain that statement?
    It seems rather abstract...

    And, ultimitely, the Irish language is 'useless'... It will not enable our children to compete in a global market... So, while I can't put a price on the irish language.. I can say that what it will cost us..


  • #447
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    you can put a price on anything and everything

    whether you like it or not we live in 21st century not some idealized vision if Ireland from 18th century that you might have, thats reality face it

    Why am I picturing that evil cat in the Dilbert cartoons?! :)

    I am very much looking at the 21st century. That is why I talk with my niece in Irish. I create my reality. We create our reality as a nation too. I refuse to suffer the impositions of others, as you seem to feel we should.
    optocynic wrote: »
    Can you explain that statement?
    It seems rather abstract...

    And, ultimitely, the Irish language is 'useless'... It will not enable our children to compete in a global market... So, while I can't put a price on the irish language.. I can say that what it will cost us..

    I mean that we have no soul and no dignity if every decision we make is based solely on cost or monetary concerns. We are not some sort of postmodern semicorporation-semicountry, as some would have us be. We are a longstanding nation with huge history, tradition, and culture. We are dutybound to preserve all this and pass it on. It cannot be reckoned with the accountant's pen. I am not British, Canadian, French, or American. I am Irish. Why am I Irish? Why am I different? My answer would be complex but a cornerstone would be to first point to this language that is thousands of years old with the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.


  • #448
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    For the Gaelgors, it comes down to an insecurity of their identity.

    For they, the irish language seems inseperable to their irish identity.
    For the majoritiy of the rest of us, this is not case.
    We can be irish and not speak the language.

    It's rather similiar to nationalist enclaves in parts of the North. There, they cling to symbolisms like the Tri-colour. And they tie this to their identity as irish people and they believe that anything that threatens their symbols is an attack on their identity.

    Do the Gaelgors feel that those irish people whom do not speak the language (and let's be honest almost none of us grew up speaking irish), are LESS irish than they?


  • #449
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    topper75 wrote: »
    Why am I picturing that evil cat in the Dilbert cartoons?! :)

    I am very much looking at the 21st century. That is why I talk with my niece in Irish. I create my reality. We create our reality as a nation too. I refuse to suffer the impositions of others, as you seem to feel we should.



    I mean that we have no soul and no dignity if every decision we make is based solely on cost or monetary concerns. We are not some sort of postmodern semicorporation-semicountry, as some would have us be. We are a longstanding nation with huge history, tradition, and culture. We are dutybound to preserve all this and pass it on. It cannot be reckoned with the accountant's pen. I am not British, Canadian, French, or American. I am Irish. Why am I Irish? Why am I different? My answer would be complex but a cornerstone would be to first point to this language that is thousands of years old with the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.

    Snore!
    Answer the question again, with rationality this time.
    How useful is the Irish language to us?

    Spare me the fenian anglo-phobia.


  • #450
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Do the Gaelgors feel that those irish people whom do not speak the language (and let's be honest almost none of us grew up speaking irish), are LESS irish than they?

    I would feel that someone who speaks Irish IS indeed more Irish than someone who doesn't. Someone who speaks French is more French than someone born and reared in France who somehow failed to learn the French language. I am not saying that such non-Irish speaking people aren't nice people :), or aren't 'valid', or indeed question their entitlements in this state. But I would acknowledge a distinction in the level of 'Irishness' on account of their failure to speak the language of the island, yes definitely.


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  • #451
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    topper75 wrote: »
    I would feel that someone who speaks Irish IS indeed more Irish than someone who doesn't. Someone who speaks French is more French than someone born and reared in France who somehow failed to learn the French language. I am not saying that such non-Irish speaking people aren't nice people :), or aren't 'valid', or indeed question their entitlements in this state. But I would acknowledge a distinction in the level of 'Irishness' on account of their failure to speak the language of the island, yes definitely.

    WOW!
    I eat Italian food, and drink French Wine... and Hate Irish whiskey..
    What does that make me?

    And if I'm less Irish than you... should I not have to pay less Irish tax than you?... Or should I have a different passport?


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