Hypothetical Question

CerebralCortex · 29-10-2009 11:21AM

aftermn wrote: »

...As for Darwin V the Book of Genesis, well neither is the whole truth, is it.

I'm with Zillah. And no calling someone ignorant is not necessarily being overly harsh.

Definition of ignorant/ignorance:
Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information

Dades · 29-10-2009 11:24AM

The "official" definition of "ignorant" is of little consequence to someone who has just been accused of being it. That has always been my take on the matter so I suggest everybody move on now.

NothingMan · 29-10-2009 11:36AM

I agree with most people here in the sense that I would have no problem getting married in a church ceremony. However I know a lot of priests/churches insist that you vow to raise your kids with that religion. A lot of people are made to take a small 1 or 2 day course or retreat with a religious based discussions before the priest will marry you.

That is where things might fall apart. If a priest asked me if I will be bringing my children up in the church I would tell him outright "no, I am an Atheist". If he asked why I wanted to get married in the Church I would tell him it is important to my fiance etc... I wouldn't lie about it.

However sinceI have defected there may be a lot of priests who will refuse to marry me full stop.

Same as everyone else on the baptising deal. Not gonna happen. I wish I had the opportunity to choose for myself instead of being raised believing in things I later found to be rediculous. And I will bring my children up with a more worldly view of religion and cultures and if they ever choose to join a religion it will be because of their mature choice and understanding of what they are getting involved in.

Tim Robbins · 29-10-2009 11:39AM

I'd find it harder to marry someone who voted no to the second Lisbon, had a cr*p sense of humour, was a wingy teacher or civil servant who kept saying: "we didn't cause this mess", voted for sinn fein, never gave anything to charity, was materialistic, cheated on you, was completly useless or selfish with money or just ugly.

It all comes down to priorities.

GLaDOS · 29-10-2009 11:57AM

aftermn wrote: »

Is this an acceptance that science is sometimes wrong?

The scientific method works on accepting mistakes and learning from them. Of course science is sometimes wrong, however, unlike religion it doesn't dig in its heels and refuse to change its stance.

Tim Robbins · 29-10-2009 12:10PM

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

Dades · 29-10-2009 12:12PM

Wasn't one thread about Santa in Parenting and one in Humanities enough, Tim?

Ickle Magoo · 29-10-2009 12:31PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It all comes down to priorities.

I suppose so. I mean, there are certainly less attractive qualities than being religious if we're talking sliding scales - I certainly wouldn't be able to live with racism just because the person was irreligious, for instance. To be fair though, I think it's possible to find a partner who is none of the things you mention and is also not religious...ticks all the boxes, as it were.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

We don't really do Santa - my kids' presents are from real people & they know it. We don't leave out milk & cookies & no letters to Santa are written. They are sent cards with Santa on them and they are asked what they want Santa to bring them from other people & that's the only mentions they hear of the man in red. I think the kids are quite sceptical about the whole thing anyway, despite being so young. We have never spent a Christmas at our own home to date and the look on my son's face when his grandmother was trying to convince him Santa just knew where every child was and that the lack of chimney would prove no obstacle to Santa's magic was priceless.

Mark Hamill · 29-10-2009 12:47PM

kryogen wrote: »

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

Your child, so your choice (well your and your other halfs, anyway). You need to do what you think is best for your child not what you think is best for the rest of the family, they wont be living your childs life.

doctoremma · 29-10-2009 12:48PM

Jako8 wrote: »

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here*

You can stop there. While I might be able to stand a date or two with someone religious (before I found out), I'm almost certain I couldn't form a long-lasting relationship with someone who was religious. It's a deal-breaker (like their view on capital punishment).

Jako8 wrote: »

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

Absolutely not. I would go so far as to request to the various grandparents that I didn't wish for religion to be part of their upbringing. When they are old enough to discuss it, fine. But I don't want them hearing about god/hellfire/heaven/etc when they are five.

As an aside - how do atheist parents deal with Christmas and baby Jebus?

Tim Robbins · 29-10-2009 12:48PM

Dades wrote: »

Wasn't one thread about Santa in Parenting and one in Humanities enough, Tim?

Indeed, Id expect a different range of reactions from the regulars here than the parenting forum:pac:.

doctoremma · 29-10-2009 01:31PM

aftermn wrote: »

I still reckon that 'God' is as good an explanation as anything science has come up with, but I have stopped expecting them to follow my lead.

Just to add my 2p worth:

"Daddy, why have I got blue eyes and you have got brown eyes?"
"God made it so"

"Daddy, what makes a rainbow?"
"God does"

You honestly think that the replies are truthful? Or, by your statement, do you mean that God is as good an explanation as anything when you personally don't understand the scientific answer?

And incidentally, to suggest that science as a malleable set of theories means that it is meaningless is, well, ridiculous. Look at the world around you. Poeple are living longer and longer, which means that for all the dickering over whether a glass of red wine is good or bad for you, the general trend is onwards and upwards.

ironingbored · 29-10-2009 02:01PM

kryogen wrote: »

Here is something close to the topic

I am about to have my first child, the missus knows my beliefs, or lack there of, and that is not an issue between us, in fact to answer the OP directly, it makes no difference to me where we get married (if we do) if she wants the traditional marriage and all that it really doesnt matter to me, i dont need to be militant in my beliefs for one day!

so heres my thing, i am getting major pressure from all sides to have my baby baptised, just as i was, my mother and all that side of my family are pretty indoctrinated in catholisism, my father isnt but his mother is!

her mam is pushing hard for a baptism also but her dad isnt too pushed

i dont want to cause a huge family rift here, and my partner is leaning toward a baptism anyway, wether its also to keep the peace or simply because she believes in baptism im not entirely certain

any advice on how to proceed?

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

Just tell them you've no problem whatsoever with baptism but that it is postponed until the child reaches 18.

Funny how religious people want to get to the child as early as possible.

robindch · 29-10-2009 03:15PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

Snowflake will be three this christmas and she'll be getting the full-on Santa treatment.

Quite apart from Santa being great fun and an excellent role-model for generosity, it's also a good example of how easily it is to fool significant numbers of trusting people about the existence of a non-existent entity.

When somebody mentions Jesus, just remember Santa.

Dades · 29-10-2009 03:21PM

robindch wrote: »

When somebody mentions Jesus, just remember Santa.

Exactly. You don't think Santa could have built that sleigh himself, do you?

Gurgle · 29-10-2009 03:23PM

Jako8 wrote: »

Don't worry this isn't one of those "If Jesus was to... would you believe in him then?" threads.

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here* and they wanted to have a traditional marriage ceremony(whatever traditional ceremony their religion has) would you agree?

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

Yes to marriage, don't see a problem.
As for 'raising kids religiously' - what does that mean?
I tell them "some people believe <whatever>, some people don't".

Tim Robbins · 29-10-2009 08:51PM

Dades wrote: »

Exactly. You don't think Santa could have built that sleigh himself, do you?

I have one question for you if Santa makes magic, well then who made Santa?

Zillah · 29-10-2009 10:18PM

doctoremma wrote: »

It's a deal-breaker (like their view on capital punishment).

Wait, what? What effect would that have on anything? Obviously it is something you can feel strongly about but I can't fathom how it could be a deal breaker. It couldn't possibly affect their day to day lives the way religion would.

The Mad Hatter · 29-10-2009 11:11PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd find it harder to marry someone who voted no to the second Lisbon, had a cr*p sense of humour, was a wingy teacher or civil servant who kept saying: "we didn't cause this mess", voted for sinn fein, never gave anything to charity, was materialistic, cheated on you, was completly useless or selfish with money or just ugly.

It all comes down to priorities.

I'm glad not marrying someone who cheated on me is so high on your list of priorities.

Obni · 30-10-2009 02:10AM

As someone who dealt with this 'hypothetical' question I would have to say that this question is meaningless as long as the *insert religion here* section remains unfilled. The question created by inserting 'orthodox jew' or 'born-again christian' is very different than that created by inserting 'modern Irish cultural catholic'. By mIcc, I mean the most common form of religious people in Ireland, the XMas and Easter mass attenders, nice place to have a wedding, proper place for a funeral, I've a lot of time for Jesus, but that doesn't mean I'll take any ****e from priests, etc...

I married an mIcc and my wife wanted the kids baptised etc..., but accepted the fact that while I was happy for them to participate in the same rites of passage as their class-mates, I would
(1) never lie to the kids if asked a direct question
(2) never participate in religion except for first communions etc...

The result?
My two sons spend less time per year thinking about religion than most contributors to this forum spend each day. It is probably a quicker route to the promised-land of post-theism, than the route I've taken by being actively atheist.

NothingMan · 30-10-2009 10:01AM

Obni wrote: »

I married an mIcc and my wife wanted the kids baptised etc..., but accepted the fact that while I was happy for them to participate in the same rites of passage as their class-mates, I would
(1) never lie to the kids if asked a direct question
(2) never participate in religion except for first communions etc...

The result?
My two sons spend less time per year thinking about religion than most contributors to this forum spend each day. It is probably a quicker route to the promised-land of post-theism, than the route I've taken by being actively atheist.

But I think one of the main arguments against getting a child baptised is that you are basically signing them up to a society that they have no understanding of, and one which you yourself disagree with.

I don't think you are doing the children any harm in raising them this way, and obviously it may be slightly easier not having to explain why they are not getting communion etc... But as long as people are signing their kids up to the church then the longer the church will hold it's position of authority in our state and the world. An Authority which you do not agree with.

Dades · 30-10-2009 11:03AM

Obni wrote: »

I married an mIcc and my wife wanted the kids baptised etc..., but accepted the fact that while I was happy for them to participate in the same rites of passage as their class-mates, I would
(1) never lie to the kids if asked a direct question
(2) never participate in religion except for first communions etc...

Your experience pretty much mirrors mine. Except for I won't be happy to let them participate rites of passage and wait impatiently for the day when they ask me about what they learned today in RE.

But as long as people are signing their kids up to the church then the longer the church will hold it's position of authority in our state and the world. An Authority which you do not agree with.

You've missed the key point of this thread which is how two people cope with different beliefs. There are generally two parents involved. In Obni (and my) case our other halves' wishes were honoured. Until you've kids with someone of the 'mIcc' persuasion it's naive to think that following through on your personal principles (i.e. no baptism) is going to result in anything but conflict.

Flamed Diving · 30-10-2009 11:20AM

Wicknight wrote: »

Yeah, seconded, and to Robin's post, I find it hard to imagine me getting married to a very religious person. I see it more likely that she wants to have a cultural wedding (ie in a church) and she wants to raise the kids "like everyone else", rather than me ever finding myself in a situation of arguing about this stuff with a fundamentalist*.

*unless she has great tits :pac:

I met an American girl who was a fundamentalist Christian. In addition to her beautiful face, cracking body and long legs; she had an enormous rack.

I would have converted for her.

(PS: She was really clever and funny, too.)

Goduznt Xzst · 30-10-2009 11:48AM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I met an American girl who was a fundamentalist Christian... She was really clever

Malari · 30-10-2009 12:58PM

No way to both.

They comprise 2 of my 3 deal-breakers in a relationship - "finding" god and wanting children.

Obni · 30-10-2009 04:30PM

NothingMan wrote: »

But as long as people are signing their kids up to the church then the longer the church will hold it's position of authority in our state and the world. An Authority which you do not agree with.

It seems to me that most people in western Europe are in practical terms humanist, in that they have a common set of principles and moral values that may have been inspired in part by the christian religion, but have become enshrined in our secular legislation. It is against that shared set of values that most people measure the moral content of actions, not the actual contents of the bible. Of the family, friends and acquaintances of mine, who retain a belief in an organised religion, most do not look for God's guiding hand in every event in their life, nor do they consider God's wishes when making decisions in their lives. They function for 99% of their lives without reference to God.

I on the other hand would have the atheistic nature of my universe at the forefront of my thoughts, in an uncomfortable parallel to a deeply religious person and their god.

For my kids the journey from their current state to say, secular humanism, is a very short step; and I would think a healthy one. I don't claim for a moment that that was my longterm plan when I went along with my wife's wishes. She cared more about having them baptised than I did about not having them baptised, full stop. The rest of the story is human nature plus religion's reaching a state of natural obsolescence in western Europe. It is just the fortunate, and for me enlightening, outcome.

The excision of god from my kids psyches would leave no visible scar, unlike so many of my own generation who prowl these forums poking their wounds with a dirty stick.

doctoremma · 30-10-2009 06:17PM

Zillah wrote: »

Wait, what? What effect would that have on anything? Obviously it is something you can feel strongly about but I can't fathom how it could be a deal breaker. It couldn't possibly affect their day to day lives the way religion would.

Their view on capital punishment would, in my view (which is by no means the only one

), be reflective of a set of personality traits that I could never find attractive. I simply could not be with someone who thought it was OK. For me, it's a very fundamental position and non-negotiable.

But I'm not stubborn

Herbal Deity · 30-10-2009 08:44PM

Jako8 wrote: »

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here*

Wouldn't happen.

Antbert · 01-11-2009 04:27PM

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Wouldn't happen.

I too think this is highly probable.

eblistic · 01-11-2009 05:46PM

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Wouldn't happen.

Isn't that a bit impractical in this country? It rules out all the wonderful people who say they're *insert religion here* but in reality it doesn't play any real part in their lives.

I think the original question is a reality for many non-believers in Ireland rather than hypothetical. In my own case it was "Yes no problem" for marriage in a church and "No way" for indoctrination of kids.

Hypothetical Question

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