Hypothetical Question

Jako8

Don't worry this isn't one of those "If Jesus was to... would you believe in him then?" threads.

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here* and they wanted to have a traditional marriage ceremony(whatever traditional ceremony their religion has) would you agree?

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

ShooterSF

No and No. though that might have more to do with my intention not to get married or have kids.

Zombrex

Jako8 wrote: »

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here* and they wanted to have a traditional marriage ceremony(whatever traditional ceremony their religion has) would you agree?

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

Yes to the marriage, so long as she knew I wasn't going to lie or pretend to be a member of her religion (I get married in a church for her, makes no shakes to me, again so long as it is clear I'm not pretending)

No to raising the kids religiously.

robindch

This question comes up so often that it looks like there's a good case for stickying it.

Can't speak for anybody else, but if my missus-to-be declared her opinions about her religion to be more important to her than the relationship (which many religious people appear to believe), then she'd be out the door faster than a Jehovah's Witness on wet ice.

If she's moderate in her beliefs, though, then I can't imagine much trouble. Or at least, too much anyway.

And as for the kids, well, I think they should be kept free of religion until they're old enough to make up their own minds.

Zillah

Q1 - Yes, no problem at all.
Q2 - No, absolutely not, total deal breaker.

I would not, however, have a successful relationship with a person for whom any of this was a big issue.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote: »

I would not, however, have a successful relationship with a person for whom any of this was a big issue.

Yeah, seconded, and to Robin's post, I find it hard to imagine me getting married to a very religious person. I see it more likely that she wants to have a cultural wedding (ie in a church) and she wants to raise the kids "like everyone else", rather than me ever finding myself in a situation of arguing about this stuff with a fundamentalist*.



















*unless she has great tits :pac:

Wacker

I've said before that, if I am ever to get married, that I'll let the missus decide upon everything on the big day, so long as the first dance is to Led Zeppelin's Boogie With Stu. Once I have that, everything else is fine and dandy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ditBIHem-E

Over my dead body will she indoctrinate my kids with nonsense though.

Galvasean

Q1: Sure why not. I can keep my mouth shut for a day.
Q2: Definately not. The same way I would not allow her to raise the children as Man United fans.

Ickle Magoo

robindch wrote: »

This question comes up so often that it looks like there's a good case for stickying it.

Can't speak for anybody else, but if my missus-to-be declared her opinions about her religion to be more important to her than the relationship (which many religious people appear to believe), then she'd be out the door faster than a Jehovah's Witness on wet ice.

If she's moderate in her beliefs, though, then I can't imagine much trouble. Or at least, too much anyway.

And as for the kids, well, I think they should be kept free of religion until they're old enough to make up their own minds.

Pretty much what I was about to say.

Though in all honesty, I've never had a relationship with someone who was particularly religious get anywhere near that point - as soon as there is conflict caused by theism, I just get completely turned off.

Sea Sharp

Yes and no.

The church, whether you like 'em or not, do good weddings and funerals.
Raising a child in a religion? Nope.

aftermn

Any of you people actually have children?

I have tried to raise mine along traditional lines. They tend to have their own ideas though and no amount of theism on my part appears to have been implanted.

I still reckon that 'God' is as good an explanation as anything science has come up with, but I have stopped expecting them to follow my lead.

Ickle Magoo

aftermn wrote: »

Any of you people actually have children?

Two...

Zillah

aftermn wrote: »

I still reckon that 'God' is as good an explanation as anything science has come up with

Ahahaha try reading a book.

Preferably not thousands of years out of date.

aftermn

Any particular book?

As to the 'out of date' comment, does it relate to todays beliefs, yesterday's or tomorrow's? Because it appears that all eventually fall to the passage of time. Scientific explanations included.

Ickle Magoo

Eh, scientific advancements are not quite the same thing as teaching your kids a book written thousands of years ago is an accurate account of events. I will still teach my kids Darwin over Genesis, anyway.

Zillah

A Brief History Of Time would make a nice start. Then perhaps a basic primer on the scientific method, and then one on philosophy which includes occams razor and the nature of assumption.

Soul Cake Duck

1. I don't think I could actually do the church thing…but I would feel very guilty if he & his/my parents who are catholic wanted the big wedding etc. Again I think, well I’d hope, to find someone with similar beliefs and morals as me anyway to avoid this otherwise we would probably have to compromise

2. As for the children...100% N.O...when they are old enough they can choose to follow said religion if they so wish.

aftermn

Supercroc,

Your children will make their own choice anyway, don't worry about that.

As for the 'Brief History of Time', it is the perspective of a particular individual, at a particular moment in time. It was probably very true for him at that time. Will anyone agree with it in 100 years, a thousand years?

As for Darwin V the Book of Genesis, well neither is the whole truth, is it.

Ickle Magoo

One has a hell of a lot less "truths" than the other tho, eh? One of them at least has a toe-hold in reality. :rolleyes:

aftermn

It sometimes appears so.

But then science once told us that bleeding was a sure cure for the plague.

That belief didn't last long, thankfully.

Zillah

aftermn wrote: »

It was probably very true for him at that time.

What sort of magic stretchy world do you live in? It has to be very confusing, knowing that at any moment the plane you're in could drop out of the sky when reality shifts again.

aftermn wrote: »

It sometimes appears so.

But then science once told us that bleeding was a sure cure for the plague.

That belief didn't last long, thankfully.

Luckily we now know that God did it. Oh wait, or was it science that worked out what the plague was? Huh, funny that.

aftermn

Is this an acceptance that science is sometimes wrong?

Zillah

Science builds the best models it can based on the evidence available. As new evidence appears we modify our models to explain it. No one ever claimed science was 100% about anything, but it tries to be, and does it far far better than anything else, such as inventing magical beings to explain things.

Seriously, you have a lot of reading to do, you're very ignorant.

kryogen

Here is something close to the topic

I am about to have my first child, the missus knows my beliefs, or lack there of, and that is not an issue between us, in fact to answer the OP directly, it makes no difference to me where we get married (if we do) if she wants the traditional marriage and all that it really doesnt matter to me, i dont need to be militant in my beliefs for one day!

so heres my thing, i am getting major pressure from all sides to have my baby baptised, just as i was, my mother and all that side of my family are pretty indoctrinated in catholisism, my father isnt but his mother is!

her mam is pushing hard for a baptism also but her dad isnt too pushed

i dont want to cause a huge family rift here, and my partner is leaning toward a baptism anyway, wether its also to keep the peace or simply because she believes in baptism im not entirely certain

any advice on how to proceed?

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

liamw

aftermn wrote: »

I still reckon that 'God' is as good an explanation as anything science has come up with, but I have stopped expecting them to follow my lead.

Can you give an example please of something where god is 'as good an explanation' as science?

As far as I was aware, god explains precisely nothing. I'm assuming the Flying Spagetti Monster can explain things as well as science can too then?

Ickle Magoo

aftermn wrote: »

Is this an acceptance that science is sometimes wrong?

Science bases it's knowledge on the physical evidence around us, as we are discovering more evidence and improving the ways in which we are able to observe the physical world all the time, the theories & hypothesis that science draws also change as the aim of science is to get to the absolute indisputable facts. If you think that is an equal explanation as something written 70yrs after the event & completely devoid of evidence then I've just been rendered speechless, tbh. :eek:

Science used to think that bleeding was a sure cure for the plague because it had worked out that pathogens were being carried around the body in the blood stream, it didn't have the whole picture but it was a lot more accurate & had much more logical bases than declaring an omnipotent being did it. I don't think there is a person alive today that still believes bleeding would cure a disease - pity we can't say the same about the age of the earth & the existence of dinosaurs. :pac:

ShooterSF

kryogen wrote: »

Here is something close to the topic

I am about to have my first child, the missus knows my beliefs, or lack there of, and that is not an issue between us, in fact to answer the OP directly, it makes no difference to me where we get married (if we do) if she wants the traditional marriage and all that it really doesnt matter to me, i dont need to be militant in my beliefs for one day!

so heres my thing, i am getting major pressure from all sides to have my baby baptised, just as i was, my mother and all that side of my family are pretty indoctrinated in catholisism, my father isnt but his mother is!

her mam is pushing hard for a baptism also but her dad isnt too pushed

i dont want to cause a huge family rift here, and my partner is leaning toward a baptism anyway, wether its also to keep the peace or simply because she believes in baptism im not entirely certain

any advice on how to proceed?

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

Suggest that you consider religion a big deal (:D) and would prefer your child is not a member of any particular one until they are of age to decide themselves (18) at which point you will accept whatever the child decides?

ShooterSF

aftermn wrote: »

It sometimes appears so.

But then science once told us that bleeding was a sure cure for the plague.

That belief didn't last long, thankfully.

If you constantly turn to two people for advice and one when he is wrong and is shown how, accepts his mistake and reforms his opinion. The other, when told he was wrong, puts his fingers in his ears and shouts "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Which one's advice (long term) do you trust?

Also if you feel god is an explanation for things are you choosing a god outside of any definition or one of the major religion's one?

Dr Pepper

Zillah wrote: »

Seriously, you have a lot of reading to do, you're very ignorant.

I'm not a moderator but I find this post to be a bit overly aggressive/offensive towards a fairly reasonable, moderate poster.

Goduznt Xzst

In reply to the OP's questions: Yes and No

If the missus was religious I would still raise the child in a free thinking environment, I'd have no issues with my OH explaining her position to our child, but the child would not be required to adhere to or engage in any of the doctrines of that Religion.

aftermn wrote: »

Is this an acceptance that science is sometimes wrong?

Yes. Areas of Science have been, probably are and will be wrong. I fear the mistake you have made (which is understandable amongst some religious) is that you think the relationship between Religion and Science is inversely proportional, this is simply not the case. Your Religion and Science are separate entities. When Science is wrong it does not prove your Religion to be more right.

I also fear, from your previous statements, that your argument for remaining Religious is based on Pascals Wager (please have a read of that link). In that, given that your Religion and Science both can be shown to be wrong throughout history, it is better to go with the option that offers you the most rewards, ergo: immortality.

This reasoning is flawed as:
A) The aim of all Sciences is not to replace or disprove Religious beliefs
That the particular Religion and God that you follow are the only ones conceivably true

Zillah wrote: »

you're very ignorant.

Ah... you've been reading up on Hitchens approach to winning hearts and minds

Dades

Dr Pepper wrote: »

I'm not a moderator but I find this post to be a bit overly aggressive/offensive towards a fairly reasonable, moderate poster.

As do I and Zillah has been warned so lets keep things moving.

CerebralCortex

aftermn wrote: »

...As for Darwin V the Book of Genesis, well neither is the whole truth, is it.

I'm with Zillah. And no calling someone ignorant is not necessarily being overly harsh.

Definition of ignorant/ignorance:
Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information

Dades

The "official" definition of "ignorant" is of little consequence to someone who has just been accused of being it. That has always been my take on the matter so I suggest everybody move on now.

NothingMan

I agree with most people here in the sense that I would have no problem getting married in a church ceremony. However I know a lot of priests/churches insist that you vow to raise your kids with that religion. A lot of people are made to take a small 1 or 2 day course or retreat with a religious based discussions before the priest will marry you.

That is where things might fall apart. If a priest asked me if I will be bringing my children up in the church I would tell him outright "no, I am an Atheist". If he asked why I wanted to get married in the Church I would tell him it is important to my fiance etc... I wouldn't lie about it.

However sinceI have defected there may be a lot of priests who will refuse to marry me full stop.

Same as everyone else on the baptising deal. Not gonna happen. I wish I had the opportunity to choose for myself instead of being raised believing in things I later found to be rediculous. And I will bring my children up with a more worldly view of religion and cultures and if they ever choose to join a religion it will be because of their mature choice and understanding of what they are getting involved in.

Tim Robbins

I'd find it harder to marry someone who voted no to the second Lisbon, had a cr*p sense of humour, was a wingy teacher or civil servant who kept saying: "we didn't cause this mess", voted for sinn fein, never gave anything to charity, was materialistic, cheated on you, was completly useless or selfish with money or just ugly.

It all comes down to priorities.

GLaDOS

aftermn wrote: »

Is this an acceptance that science is sometimes wrong?

The scientific method works on accepting mistakes and learning from them. Of course science is sometimes wrong, however, unlike religion it doesn't dig in its heels and refuse to change its stance.

Tim Robbins

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

Dades

Wasn't one thread about Santa in Parenting and one in Humanities enough, Tim?

Ickle Magoo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It all comes down to priorities.

I suppose so. I mean, there are certainly less attractive qualities than being religious if we're talking sliding scales - I certainly wouldn't be able to live with racism just because the person was irreligious, for instance. To be fair though, I think it's possible to find a partner who is none of the things you mention and is also not religious...ticks all the boxes, as it were.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

We don't really do Santa - my kids' presents are from real people & they know it. We don't leave out milk & cookies & no letters to Santa are written. They are sent cards with Santa on them and they are asked what they want Santa to bring them from other people & that's the only mentions they hear of the man in red. I think the kids are quite sceptical about the whole thing anyway, despite being so young. We have never spent a Christmas at our own home to date and the look on my son's face when his grandmother was trying to convince him Santa just knew where every child was and that the lack of chimney would prove no obstacle to Santa's magic was priceless.

Mark Hamill

kryogen wrote: »

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

Your child, so your choice (well your and your other halfs, anyway). You need to do what you think is best for your child not what you think is best for the rest of the family, they wont be living your childs life.

doctoremma

Jako8 wrote: »

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here*

You can stop there. While I might be able to stand a date or two with someone religious (before I found out), I'm almost certain I couldn't form a long-lasting relationship with someone who was religious. It's a deal-breaker (like their view on capital punishment).

Jako8 wrote: »

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

Absolutely not. I would go so far as to request to the various grandparents that I didn't wish for religion to be part of their upbringing. When they are old enough to discuss it, fine. But I don't want them hearing about god/hellfire/heaven/etc when they are five.

As an aside - how do atheist parents deal with Christmas and baby Jebus?

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

Wasn't one thread about Santa in Parenting and one in Humanities enough, Tim?

Indeed, Id expect a different range of reactions from the regulars here than the parenting forum:pac:.

doctoremma

aftermn wrote: »

I still reckon that 'God' is as good an explanation as anything science has come up with, but I have stopped expecting them to follow my lead.

Just to add my 2p worth:

"Daddy, why have I got blue eyes and you have got brown eyes?"
"God made it so"

"Daddy, what makes a rainbow?"
"God does"

You honestly think that the replies are truthful? Or, by your statement, do you mean that God is as good an explanation as anything when you personally don't understand the scientific answer?

And incidentally, to suggest that science as a malleable set of theories means that it is meaningless is, well, ridiculous. Look at the world around you. Poeple are living longer and longer, which means that for all the dickering over whether a glass of red wine is good or bad for you, the general trend is onwards and upwards.

ironingbored

kryogen wrote: »

Here is something close to the topic

I am about to have my first child, the missus knows my beliefs, or lack there of, and that is not an issue between us, in fact to answer the OP directly, it makes no difference to me where we get married (if we do) if she wants the traditional marriage and all that it really doesnt matter to me, i dont need to be militant in my beliefs for one day!

so heres my thing, i am getting major pressure from all sides to have my baby baptised, just as i was, my mother and all that side of my family are pretty indoctrinated in catholisism, my father isnt but his mother is!

her mam is pushing hard for a baptism also but her dad isnt too pushed

i dont want to cause a huge family rift here, and my partner is leaning toward a baptism anyway, wether its also to keep the peace or simply because she believes in baptism im not entirely certain

any advice on how to proceed?

i genuinely dont want the child to be baptised because it doesnt match my beliefs, should i really dig my heels in here or should i let it slide and keep the family happy and then just let my child make up its own mind?

Just tell them you've no problem whatsoever with baptism but that it is postponed until the child reaches 18.

Funny how religious people want to get to the child as early as possible.

robindch

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On a related subject for anyone who feels strongly about keeping their kids away from God / Religion, how do you propose to deal with God of Capitalism: Santa?

Snowflake will be three this christmas and she'll be getting the full-on Santa treatment.

Quite apart from Santa being great fun and an excellent role-model for generosity, it's also a good example of how easily it is to fool significant numbers of trusting people about the existence of a non-existent entity.

When somebody mentions Jesus, just remember Santa.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

When somebody mentions Jesus, just remember Santa.

Exactly. You don't think Santa could have built that sleigh himself, do you?

Gurgle

Jako8 wrote: »

Don't worry this isn't one of those "If Jesus was to... would you believe in him then?" threads.

Say you were going out with a guy/gal and you saw a future between the two of you but they were *insert religion here* and they wanted to have a traditional marriage ceremony(whatever traditional ceremony their religion has) would you agree?

Also would you agree to let them raise your kids religiously?

Yes to marriage, don't see a problem.
As for 'raising kids religiously' - what does that mean?
I tell them "some people believe <whatever>, some people don't".

Tim Robbins

Dades wrote: »

Exactly. You don't think Santa could have built that sleigh himself, do you?

I have one question for you if Santa makes magic, well then who made Santa?

Zillah

doctoremma wrote: »

It's a deal-breaker (like their view on capital punishment).

Wait, what? What effect would that have on anything? Obviously it is something you can feel strongly about but I can't fathom how it could be a deal breaker. It couldn't possibly affect their day to day lives the way religion would.

The Mad Hatter

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd find it harder to marry someone who voted no to the second Lisbon, had a cr*p sense of humour, was a wingy teacher or civil servant who kept saying: "we didn't cause this mess", voted for sinn fein, never gave anything to charity, was materialistic, cheated on you, was completly useless or selfish with money or just ugly.

It all comes down to priorities.

I'm glad not marrying someone who cheated on me is so high on your list of priorities.

Obni

As someone who dealt with this 'hypothetical' question I would have to say that this question is meaningless as long as the *insert religion here* section remains unfilled. The question created by inserting 'orthodox jew' or 'born-again christian' is very different than that created by inserting 'modern Irish cultural catholic'. By mIcc, I mean the most common form of religious people in Ireland, the XMas and Easter mass attenders, nice place to have a wedding, proper place for a funeral, I've a lot of time for Jesus, but that doesn't mean I'll take any ****e from priests, etc...

I married an mIcc and my wife wanted the kids baptised etc..., but accepted the fact that while I was happy for them to participate in the same rites of passage as their class-mates, I would
(1) never lie to the kids if asked a direct question
(2) never participate in religion except for first communions etc...

The result?
My two sons spend less time per year thinking about religion than most contributors to this forum spend each day. It is probably a quicker route to the promised-land of post-theism, than the route I've taken by being actively atheist.