HSE employee sick for 6 years receiving €216,667 p/a

irish_bob · 28-10-2009 10:09PM

muckraker wrote: »

TBH, anyone who believes anything the papers print about the public service needs their head examined... the amount of distortion, politically motivated bull**** and false statistics published over the last year is incredible. Take it all with a pinch of salt or check the sources (if they provide any).

That said, by all accounts, the HSE is horribly mismanaged.

il take what is written in most papers with a pinch of salt , i will take what is said by all unions with a trailer load of sodium

JuliusCaesar · 28-10-2009 10:35PM

Does anyone here understand statistics?

Averages are not a good measure here (measuring sick rates in HSE or public service). What you really want is the mode.

For example: 5 people work in an office. 3 take 2 days sick leave in a particular year, 1 takes 10 days, and 1 is in and out of hospital with some disease and takes 60 days sick leave.

The Average sick leave taken in this office is: 2+2+2+10+60=76 divided by 5 people = 15.

The Mode is 2 days sick leave. (Most people take only 2 days.)

Averages can get really skewed by one person's complicated illness.

May I point out that the Public Service provides employment to a lot of disabled people who might (not always!) need more sick leave than non-disabled people. There is a social capital to this, which nobody here is taking into consideration.

Secondly, as an employee (in the public service) I'm entitled to 3 months full pay while off sick and another 3 months at halfpay. Nothing after that. I can only assume that some of the people mentioned in the newspaper article either had special contracts or were injured at work.

The Pontiac · 28-10-2009 10:49PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Does anyone here understand statistics?

Averages are not a good measure here (measuring sick rates in HSE or public service). What you really want is the mode.

For example: 5 people work in an office. 3 take 2 days sick leave in a particular year, 1 takes 10 days, and 1 is in and out of hospital with some disease and takes 60 days sick leave.

The Average sick leave taken in this office is: 2+2+2+10+60=76 divided by 5 people = 15.

The Mode is 2 days sick leave. (Most people take only 2 days.)

Averages can get really skewed by one person's complicated illness.

May I point out that the Public Service provides employment to a lot of disabled people who might (not always!) need more sick leave than non-disabled people. There is a social capital to this, which nobody here is taking into consideration.

I'd still like to compare those 'averages' with the private sector. Does anyone have the stats?

Averages are a very good measure actually, when you average it out over a few hundred thousand people. That's the whole point of statistics, you get an average. Obviously everyone is going to be different..

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Secondly, as an employee (in the public service) I'm entitled to 3 months full pay while off sick and another 3 months at halfpay. Nothing after that. I can only assume that some of the people mentioned in the newspaper article either had special contracts or were injured at work.

I'm entitled to around 3 weeks, social welfare after that.

Naikon · 28-10-2009 10:55PM

This is fcuking disgraceful. People fund the system through tax all their lives.

And to think that someone I know had to wait nearly 15 hours to see a Doctor having been ambulanced
after a recent collapse. I really, really, really hate this country at times...

NO FCUKER THAT IS ABOVE MIDDLE CLASS STATUS IS ACCOUNTABLE
IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!!

[/anger]

The Pontiac · 28-10-2009 11:28PM

<Ollie> wrote: »

I'd still like to compare those 'averages' with the private sector. Does anyone have the stats?

And there was another blow for public sector workers when it was revealed the average civil servant takes 11 sick days a year -- almost double the rate of absence in the private sector.

By Fionnan Sheahan and Brian Hutton

Friday October 23 2009 independent.ie

I'm not surprised really..

hoody · 28-10-2009 11:50PM

I'm in the HSE, I have been in my position for 15 months and have yet to take a sick day. This is not an achievement, far from it, I just think sick days are there to be used when you are actually sick, and I'm fortunate enough not to have been ill since then. But when I read something like this, it makes me feel almost naive in a way, as if the system is there to be abused, without any fear of the consequences (because there are none) and I'm not doing it.

Should I be doing it? Should I annouce the next time I want to head out on the lash instead of going to work at night, that I just don't feel up to it tonight, and put me down for sick leave so I still get paid?

omahaid · 29-10-2009 12:08AM

hoody wrote: »

I'm in the HSE, I have been in my position for 15 months and have yet to take a sick day. This is not an achievement, far from it, I just think sick days are there to be used when you are actually sick, and I'm fortunate enough not to have been ill since then. But when I read something like this, it makes me feel almost naive in a way, as if the system is there to be abused, without any fear of the consequences (because there are none) and I'm not doing it.

Should I be doing it? Should I annouce the next time I want to head out on the lash instead of going to work at night, that I just don't feel up to it tonight, and put me down for sick leave so I still get paid?

If you took none then someone else took yours plus theirs, thats how averages work. Plus, probably should take advantage of it while its still available, mightn't be forever...

hoody · 29-10-2009 12:21AM

omahaid wrote: »

If you took none then someone else took yours plus theirs, thats how averages work. Plus, probably should take advantage of it while its still available, mightn't be forever...

I understand the averages, indeed the scenario you mentioned above is one that has already happened this year. As for taking advantage of it, its not something I'd be comfortable with, not because of any loyalty to my employer, just because I think its kinda selfish and I get enough time off as it is.

[Jackass] · 29-10-2009 12:30AM

This annoys me because I work in the private sector and at the begining of this year our company stopped paying for sick leave, so if you miss even 1 day you have to go to the doctor, pay €50 and get a social welfare form and get paid less than you would being in and the more you're out the more your losing..

I'm quite sick at the moment and was off yesterday (so got no pay for that day) and did not bother going to the doctor because it works out losing even more, even if you're signed off for a few days, so went to work today coughing up my lungs and had high fever and pumping sweat all day, came home and have been lying on the couch all day with a blanket and will have a lemsip before bed and struggle in tomorrow..

Cull them...cull them all I say...

Who cares about their moaning, get these freeloaders on social welfare, get the civil service organised, have qualifications and ability as criteria for senior jobs, sack tens of thousands of them to get to optimum employment levels and part privatise portions to get real management teams in and not tea drinkers who don't really know what's going on for €250,000 p/a..

It would save hundreds of millions for the state and get the real hard working folk trying to keep this country a float out of this hole...

And they moan about some tiny levy when we (private sector) are getting redundant and pay-cuts left, right and centre...ask me brown public sector and cop on..fling them out, they're killing us and this is a joke...

You Suck! · 29-10-2009 12:40AM

Cull them...cull them all I say...

Who cares about their moaning, get these freeloaders on social welfare, get the civil service organised, have qualifications and ability as criteria for senior jobs, sack tens of thousands of them to get to optimum employment levels and part privatise portions to get real management teams in and not tea drinkers who don't really know what's going on for €250,000 p/a..

It would save hundreds of millions for the state and get the real hard working folk trying to keep this country a float out of this hole...

A-Fuckin-Men! The Civil Service is an oxymoron is ever I've seen one!

It's time Ireland address this issue, we need an independant civil service reform!
Question is will we get off our asses and do it?
It's a sad day when I agree with Kevin Myres :eek:

Just two years ago in this space I wrote of a comparable idiocy: "Such weak-minded nonsense is only possible because the Irish people appear to be too stupid or cowardly or indifferent to stop it. . . And when the Celtic Tiger finally drops dead, we'll discover the bestial truth about this state. That it was no tiger at all, but a sow, which was eaten alive by the farrow of an uncontrolled public service."

eimear1 · 29-10-2009 01:48AM

[Jackass] wrote: »

This annoys me because I work in the private sector and at the begining of this year our company stopped paying for sick leave, so if you miss even 1 day you have to go to the doctor, pay €50 and get a social welfare form and get paid less than you would being in and the more you're out the more your losing..

I'm quite sick at the moment and was off yesterday (so got no pay for that day) and did not bother going to the doctor because it works out losing even more, even if you're signed off for a few days, so went to work today coughing up my lungs and had high fever and pumping sweat all day, came home and have been lying on the couch all day with a blanket and will have a lemsip before bed and struggle in tomorrow..

Cull them...cull them all I say...

Who cares about their moaning, get these freeloaders on social welfare, get the civil service organised, have qualifications and ability as criteria for senior jobs, sack tens of thousands of them to get to optimum employment levels and part privatise portions to get real management teams in and not tea drinkers who don't really know what's going on for €250,000 p/a..

It would save hundreds of millions for the state and get the real hard working folk trying to keep this country a float out of this hole...

And they moan about some tiny levy when we (private sector) are getting redundant and pay-cuts left, right and centre...ask me brown public sector and cop on..fling them out, they're killing us and this is a joke...

These payments sicken me too - HSE employees are not entitled to this so someone up high must have sanctioned it! AFAIK When out sick, we get the first 3 months at full pay, another 3 at half pay and then your cut loose.
Ok, the public service is in a mess, but you think an attitude like this helps? Tarring everyone with the same brush is a bit over the top, we're not all slackers and losers!
I work in a HSE funded organisation, i haven't taken a sick day in over 2 years, i work hard, i have to report to people who have no qualification when i worked my butt off at college just to get this job, but i do a very vital job which needs to be done - i don't sit around filing my nails and reading my emails like many in public service! So please don't lump me in with the losers!
The pension levy is not "tiny" - you think you'd be saying that if you were required to pay an additional €300-350 a month (on top of the existing €160 you were paying) into a pension you will prob never see as you are only on temp contract and will prob have to look elsewhere when its up?
Maybe have a think about the fact that some of us work in public service because we want to do a good job, rather than to milk the system!
Eimear

Alyosha · 29-10-2009 02:06AM

The Monkey Pump wrote: »

This also happens in the case of extreme bullying and stress. My guess is that there are some kind of extenuating circumstances here which have led the HSE to continue the salary payment.

That has to be it alright. I know of one person in such a situation, and they would be well up the pay scale. Am sure there are a few such cases.

The Pontiac · 29-10-2009 02:10AM

eimear1 wrote: »

I work in a HSE funded organisation, i haven't taken a sick day in over 2 years, i work hard, i have to report to people who have no qualification when i worked my butt off at college just to get this job, but i do a very vital job which needs to be done - i don't sit around filing my nails and reading my emails like many in public service! So please don't lump me in with the losers!

So what if you have to report to people with no qualifications. Just because you worked your "butt off" in college doesn't automatically give you the right to hold a higher position. Some of the best managers don't have any qualifications. I'm assuming these non-educated bosses aren't cutting open bodies..

eimear1 · 29-10-2009 02:25AM

<Ollie> wrote: »

So what if you have to report to people with no qualifications. Just because you worked your "butt off" in college doesn't automatically give you the right to hold a higher position. Some of the best managers don't have any qualifications. I'm assuming these non-educated bosses aren't cutting open bodies..

What i was actually getting at was the previous posters point that qualifications and ability should be criteria for getting jobs and was agreeing with them on this point. In certain types of jobs yes managers can do it without qualifications but i constantly feel like giving up as there are many new ways of working and best practice which would improve the service we provide and resistance appears as soon as you suggest something new, due to lack of knowledge, plus managers not wanting to let it be seen that their juniors might actually know better in some situations.

You Suck! · 29-10-2009 02:40AM

Not to put too fine a point on it Eimear.....but it's quite late, don't you have work tomorrow? :pac:

eimear1 · 29-10-2009 02:44AM

You Suck! wrote: »

Not to put too fine a point on it Eimear.....but it's quite late, don't you have work tomorrow? :pac:

Ha Ha, very funny - working all weekend, lucky me!!! Do you mind if i have tomoro off in return??

opinion guy · 29-10-2009 02:52AM

The Monkey Pump wrote: »

Sensationalist media shyte - we know nothing about the situation. €1.3 million salary in 6 years at the HSE - my guess is that the employee is possibly a consultant surgeon. If (s)he were to have been severely injured at work by a psychotic patient and can never hold a scapel again is it right that 9s0he should sign on the dole for the rest of his/her working life?

I am all for debating the issue, but seeing as we have no idea what the issue is, we can't have much of a debate now can we?

Damn good post. I know personally of several cases in both the public and private sectors where people received horrible medical diagnoses like motor neuron disease and their employers continued to pay them their salaries longterm for compassionate reasons. Even allowed them to still come into work even thou they didn't really do much - no benefit to the company but of priceless benefit to the person and very commendable IMHO. If this is the case I think the HSE are not out of line with either public or private sector. I do think however they could reduce the level of pay to this person - but again we don't know the circumstances - maybe they got shot in the head by a crazy person at work and have this much medical bills to pay every year.

This is a cheap lazy headline. That's all. I think people should get off their high horses.

[Jackass] wrote: »

This annoys me because I work in the private sector and at the begining of this year our company stopped paying for sick leave, so if you miss even 1 day you have to go to the doctor, pay €50 and get a social welfare form and get paid less than you would being in and the more you're out the more your losing..

ok their are laws governing this stuff AFAIK. I don't think its legal for them to not pay you like that until day 3 of sick leave. Check it out.

eimear1 wrote: »

Maybe have a think about the fact that some of us work in public service because we want to do a good job, rather than to milk the system!
Eimear

+1. There are alot of double standards in HSE. I've worked in both private and public sectors and have kind of alternated between them. What people don't know is that lots of HSE workers - doctors, physio's, nurses etc are on temporary contracts. Most NCHD's have 6 month or 1 year contracts. In fact NCHD jobs have been gotten rid of over last 6 months its just not been reported. Frontline services have been cut. Nursing, physio and other temporary contracts have NOT been renewed. The higher echelons of the HSE - the management types are the problem if you ask me. Unfireable, unaccountable, unproductive. That's where the culling is needed.

As regards sick leave in the HSE. Has it occurred to anyone that maybe some of this is because peoples working conditions are deplorable? Maybe part of it is to do with say doctors working 60hour+ shifts possibly with no sleep in that time (can you ****ing believe that ? Why is there not OUTRAGE over this?), maybe its cause some consultants/senior nurses are totally unprofessional bullying battleaxes and people can't take the stress. And yes this **** does happen. Abusive working conditions are part and parcel of the working enviroment of frontline HSE employees.

Again none of this examined in the Indo articles. Lazy, uninformed, opinionated journalism. And people with opinions should damn well wise up to realities here cos the cuts being made at the HSE are on front line service - NOT on management. How many upper level HSE managers took the paycuts this last year. Cos the rank and file got hammered.

<Ollie> wrote: »

So what if you have to report to people with no qualifications. Just because you worked your "butt off" in college doesn't automatically give you the right to hold a higher position. Some of the best managers don't have any qualifications. I'm assuming these non-educated bosses aren't cutting open bodies..

Yes - these highly efficient HSE managers who barely understand what a doctor, nurse, physio, occupational therapist does? This kind of inept manage is WHY you have to queue to be seen, why your gran can't get the physio she needs, frankly and not to put too fine a point on it - WHY ALMOST CERTAINLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF UNFORTUNATE, UNSPOKEN FOR PEOPLE DIE AND/OR ENDURE PAIN AND SUFFERING UNNECESSARILY IN THIS COUNTRY FOR NOT GETTING THE SERVICES THEY NEED. IN A GODDAMN FIRST WORLD COUNTRY - THAT HAD 20 YEARS OF BOOM. AND THEY THEY BAIL THE F**KING BANKS OUT WHILST DECIMATING FRONT LINE HEALTH SERVICES. TWICE !!!!! <opinion guy got his rage on now:mad::mad::mad:>

Yeah seriously. People gotta get real all right. People gotta start wising up to why the health service SUCKS ASS. It's not that the HSE workers are lazy, or even overpaid for that matter - alot would be happy to work less hours and get less overtime. In fact many of them work in appalling conditions that wouldn't be tolerated in the private sector. Its that the people in charge could not manage their way out of a goddamned paper bag.

....and don't even get me started on the goddamned unions who couldn't identify an actual genuine industrial relations issue like endemic bullying or illegal working hours if it goddamned smacked them in the face.

goddammit wise up here people - seriously.

ARHGHGGHGG I fear i may soon transform into the hulk!!!
Damn this **** makes me angry...... I'd almost get involved in union or politics myself on account of this crap if it wouldn't give me a coronary from the induced rage it gives me

The Pontiac · 29-10-2009 03:37AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Yes - these highly efficient HSE managers who barely understand what a doctor, nurse, physio, occupational therapist does? This kind of inept manage is WHY you have to queue to be seen, why your gran can't get the physio she needs, frankly and not to put too fine a point on it - WHY ALMOST CERTAINLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF UNFORTUNATE, UNSPOKEN FOR PEOPLE DIE AND/OR ENDURE PAIN AND SUFFERING UNNECESSARILY IN THIS COUNTRY FOR NOT GETTING THE SERVICES THEY NEED. IN A GODDAMN FIRST WORLD COUNTRY - THAT HAD 20 YEARS OF BOOM. AND THEY THEY BAIL THE F**KING BANKS OUT WHILST DECIMATING FRONT LINE HEALTH SERVICES. TWICE !!!!! <opinion guy got his rage on now:mad::mad::mad:>

I was just making the point that a qualification doesn't "automatically" give a person a right to hold a higher position. Speaking about management here mostly.. I'm sure there's plenty of 'qualified educated' managers working in the HSE that fall into that category mentioned above too. My previous comments were not about the health service, but about public sector workers in general. I don't know anyone who thinks there should be cutbacks in the health sector. I agree that's it's in a dire state, and it's the last place that should be hit. But it's about time people wised the fúck up about the state of this country. Cutbacks in the public sector HAS to happen. There's no other way out. THE COUNTRY WILL GO BUST. We all know they're bailing out the banks and developers, but that really doesn't matter at this stage.

HSE employee sick for 6 years receiving €216,667 p/a

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