Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

Daithinski · 23-10-2009 06:15PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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The IMF can go and póg mo thóin:P.

cyclopath2001 · 23-10-2009 06:46PM

Daithinski wrote: »

The IMF can go and póg mo thóin:P.

In the absence of the ability to forumulate a cogent, non-racist, argument justifying current spending on Irish, the best the Irish lobby can up with is a crude Anglo-American vulgarity translated into Irish. What would the ancient bards and druids think of this sad abuse of their noble, beautiful and poetic language?

I think they'd disown the current pretenders to to the Irish tradition who've turned it into a money-grabbing industry.

Daithinski · 23-10-2009 07:55PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In the absence of the ability to forumulate a cogent, non-racist, argument justifying current spending on Irish, the best the Irish lobby can up with is a crude Anglo-American vulgarity translated into Irish. What would the ancient bards and druids think of this sad abuse of their noble, beautiful and poetic language?

I think they'd disown the current pretenders to to the Irish tradition who've turned it into a money-grabbing industry.

You can póg it and all.

I've given up trying to be rational on this issue. Its more fun to say stupid stuff to annoy pretentious people like you.

PS: i think its a bit of an exaggeration you stating that me using "póg mo thóin" is "the best the Irish lobby can come up with". You try to sound intelligent with your big words, but your big words don't hide the usual muppetish response that you get on boards.ie

cyclopath2001 · 23-10-2009 08:02PM

Daithinski wrote: »

I've given up trying to be rational on this issue.

Tell that to An Bord Snip.

dlofnep · 23-10-2009 08:06PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Doubtful. Irish will continue to be funded for the foreseeable future. And rightly so.

cyclopath2001 · 23-10-2009 08:22PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Doubtful. Irish will continue to be funded for the foreseeable future. And rightly so.

An Bord Snip thinks otherwise. And, I think it's time the C&AG took a look at your nice little earner.

The quaint Gaelic tradition of not maintaining budgets and telling auditors to 'Pog mo Thoin' is not likely to be one of the ancient cultural features we will want to preserve for the future.

Grudaire · 23-10-2009 11:00PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I think they'd disown the current pretenders to to the Irish tradition who've turned it into a money-grabbing industry.

So the free translations of Linux, Open Office, Facebook, etc etc is money grabbing!?

Cop on a bit Le do thoil.

wolfpawnat · 23-10-2009 11:19PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Surely you mean An Daingean?

Our is it Daingean Ui Chuis/Dingle Daingean Ui Chuis/ An Daingean/ Fungiville?????????????

Grudaire · 23-10-2009 11:36PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In the absence of the ability to forumulate a cogent, non-racist, argument justifying current spending on Irish, the best the Irish lobby can up with is a crude Anglo-American vulgarity translated into Irish. What would the ancient bards and druids think of this sad abuse of their noble, beautiful and poetic language?

I think they'd disown the current pretenders to to the Irish tradition who've turned it into a money-grabbing industry.

To be fair I for one hate all non-Irish speakers evenly. I don't think you can call them a race...

eddyc · 23-10-2009 11:57PM

Cliste wrote: »

So the free translations of Linux, Open Office, Facebook, etc etc is money grabbing!?

Cop on a bit Le do thoil.

How much involvement does our government have with translating Linux, Open Office, Facebook into irish?

Grudaire · 24-10-2009 12:06AM

eddyc wrote: »

How much involvement does our government have with translating Linux, Open Office, Facebook into irish?

zero afaik???

like they provide nothing to develop them in the first place

And thats not the lot, click on my link in the sig for a full list.

ALL VOLUNTARY

eddyc · 24-10-2009 12:12AM

So would they do that regardless of whether there was state funding of the irish language or not?

Grudaire · 24-10-2009 12:16AM

eddyc wrote: »

So would they do that regardless of whether there was state funding of the irish language or not?

Yes - but they wouldn't provide public services through Irish..

Google supplies Google through Irish
The open-source community supplies open source through Irish
The government supplies whatever it does through Irish

Grudaire · 24-10-2009 12:18AM

eddyc wrote: »

So would they do that regardless of whether there was state funding of the irish language or not?

However nice attempt at tripping me up!

But seriously though, is it not fair to say that services will be supplied through Irish? I mean you wouldn't be happy if a couple of departments stopped dealing with the public in English would you?

Imagine a situation where you wanted arts funding, but had to fill a form out through Irish - unfair no??

cyclopath2001 · 24-10-2009 08:42AM

Cliste wrote: »

But seriously though, is it not fair to say that services will be supplied through Irish?

It's all about money. It might be very nice to make all services available in Irish for people who have chosen to use Irish. It would also be very profitable for the various companies engaged in providing transalation services.

But we cannot afford it, it has no economic benefit and need to spend what little money we have on more important things.

It is more cost-effective to provide the services through English due to the economies of scale.

I think that the rightful place for Irish is among the Irish-speaking community and once we remove commercial interests and official coercian from the equation, the langauge will be able to thrive in an organic way.

Rebelheart · 24-10-2009 09:49AM

thebman wrote: »

How are people not being forced to learn it in schools? You can't get a leaving cert without speaking Irish. I consider that forcing. If I wanted to go to college I had to learn Irish and speak it in school during Irish class.

Er, just to state the obvious: you "can't get a leaving cert" without passing English and all its pointless crap like sonnets, poetry and other fairy stuff that serves no purpose in the real world for the vast majority of working people.

Once again, the anti-Irish lobby have no problems with forcing Irish people to regurgitate all that utterly vacuous rubbish in the English language. The double standards and hypocrisy here is astounding.

eddyc · 24-10-2009 11:11AM

The amount of culture consumed by our society in the English language is not even comparable to the amount consumed in the Irish language. Learning English in school gives people a greater understanding of the pervading culture that surrounds them, people go to the movies, watch tv, listen to music read books yes even speaking to each other is done mostly in English.

If the main language of the culture we consumed was Irish then perhaps the english classes in school would be replaced by irish literature classes, but its not, not even close.
Perhaps english literature should be optional, it has no bearing on this debate however.

cyclopath2001 · 24-10-2009 11:42AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Once again, the anti-Irish lobby have no problems with forcing Irish people to regurgitate all that utterly vacuous rubbish in the English language. The double standards and hypocrisy here is astounding.

This is just more evasion and bluster from the Irish Language Industry lobby. The main issue is whether or not all government services need to be provided in Irish and English when they can be more cost effectively be provided in English only.

There are no more anti-Irish people than there are anti-English. But it suits the Irish Language Industry to play the racist card and try and demonise people as 'anti-Irish' when they just want to see scarce money spent efficiently.

Grudaire · 24-10-2009 11:47AM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's all about money. It might be very nice to make all services available in Irish for people who have chosen to use Irish. It would also be very profitable for the various companies engaged in providing transalation services.

But we cannot afford it, it has no economic benefit and need to spend what little money we have on more important things.

It is more cost-effective to provide the services through English due to the economies of scale.

I think that the rightful place for Irish is among the Irish-speaking community and once we remove commercial interests and official coercian from the equation, the langauge will be able to thrive in an organic way.

Talking online is crazy. If someone has a good point it gets glossed over (by both sides), and the opposition moves on quickly.

I don't see why culture should suffer so wholesale due to the flippancy of bankers. Lets be honest, in this case we're talking about the Government providing Government services through Irish, the only figures that I have seen brought forward are from the pro-Irish side, and they all indicate that the cost is quite low (ie get rid of 3-4 TD's, and that'll cover the total Irish language spend in a year).

And lets not beat around the bush, you add in 'pro'-Irish things at the end, but to be fair what you say isn't true. Basically what you would have is the Government FORCING people to use English to deal with them. What hope would the language have then!?

Now i should make the point that I am in favour of changing how the money is used to a certain degree:
- If nobody reads a document then don't make it
- Documents should be available through Irish, even if that is by request. However delays due to translation should be taken into account for submissions, and complaints.

Grudaire · 24-10-2009 11:49AM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is just more evasion and bluster from the Irish Language Industry lobby. The main issue is whether or not all government services need to be provided in Irish and English when they can be more cost effectively be provided in English only.

There are no more anti-Irish people than there are anti-English. But it suits the Irish Language Industry to play the racist card and try and demonise people as 'anti-Irish' when they just want to see scarce money spent efficiently.

Well to be fair I would consider myself Pro-Irish.

If I was anti English I would argue for only Irish to be used everywhere by the government - but that's not fair - is it?!

Of course it is more cost effective, but how much? Not much, and until you bring me some figures to the contrary I'll hold that opinion.

cyclopath2001 · 24-10-2009 12:11PM

Cliste wrote: »

Of course it is more cost effective, but how much? Not much, and until you bring me some figures to the contrary I'll hold that opinion.

The answer is we don't know because the cost of the Official Languages Act is not being monitored. This is deliberate.

The only way we'll have figures to the contrary will be after millions have been paid over to the Irish Language Industry and when the C&AG conducts a VFM audit. By then, it will be too late to get the money back.

To prevent waste, the Irish lobby needs to be honest about the financial cost of its demands and the government needs to allocate a fixed budget. Until then the OLA should be suspended.

Permabear · 24-10-2009 12:52PM

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Grudaire · 24-10-2009 01:09PM

Highlighting what a Fine Gael TD says doesn't amount to facts - if it did we'd have had hundreds of votes of no confidence in everyone in FF, and a lot to boot... furthermore FG are IMO insulting to any Irish speakers, for years having a larger Polish section on their website than Irish. (Not that they shouldn't have Polish, but the Irish on theirr site hasn't been changed over the last several years)

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The answer is we don't know because the cost of the Official Languages Act is not being monitored. This is deliberate.

The only way we'll have figures to the contrary will be after millions have been paid over to the Irish Language Industry and when the C&AG conducts a VFM audit. By then, it will be too late to get the money back.

To prevent waste, the Irish lobby needs to be honest about the financial cost of its demands and the government needs to allocate a fixed budget. Until then the OLA should be suspended.

Is it deliberately my fault? Have you gone and tried to find out? Or is all your effort aimed at me? How's about you take the hours you have spent here, and actually emailed around asking, then you can come back here and tell me your findings.

... or is calling for a suspension of the OLA on boards.ie more productive?

dlofnep · 24-10-2009 01:12PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Another reason to not vote for Fine Gael.

Permabear · 24-10-2009 01:35PM

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Grudaire · 24-10-2009 01:47PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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If FG meant everything they said I'm sure I could come up with more than a few discrepancies. (Heck Leo the Lion is in my constituency, Is he still selling his house to NAMA!?) You call it a hole, but it is still provision of services through Irish. You love picking on what I say but when I suggest a halfway mark it just isn't even considered.

Fás suas.

donegalfella wrote: »

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For christ sake: I SAID THAT I SEE NO REASON WHY THEY SHOULDN'T CATER TO THE POLISH.

FG risk losing all Irish speaking votes, despite Inda and apparently even Varadkar being Gaelgeoirs, and even speaking to TG4.

At this stage you're not accepting anything I say. It's a bit sad to be honest - lets test it though: sweets taste nice (I'd like to see ya disagree with that):rolleyes:

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's more than two parties in the country - Both of the above are crap, don't try and pimp FG here, the topic has nothing to do with them

Permabear · 24-10-2009 02:05PM

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Rebelheart · 24-10-2009 02:07PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is just more evasion and bluster from the Irish Language Industry lobby. The main issue is whether or not all government services need to be provided in Irish and English when they can be more cost effectively be provided in English only.

Actually, seeing as the poster in question raised the issue of compulsory Irish during an attack on Irish, it was very germane to answer it directly. You had no problem with his "evasion and bluster" when he brought up the issue but feign a sudden desire for conciseness and relevancy when he is taken to task for it.

How unsurprising.

Rebelheart · 24-10-2009 02:08PM

Camelot wrote: »

I just wish my daughter could opt out of Irish lessons in school, 'she' along with every other pupil in this State will now spend the next seventeen or eighteen years being force fed 'Irish', but to what purpose? all will leave school with a bit of the 'cupla focal' which they will keep for life, but only 3% will absorb the language and go on to speak it fluently on a daily basis Compulsory Irish & its translation is a massive financial drain on this country, and 'dare I say' a massive waste of time for our little ones who spend their whole school life learing something (cupla focal) which is of little value when they enter the big wide world.
Maddening, really maddening

More of the same hypocrisy around the issue of compulsory Irish. You clearly have no problem with forcing hundreds of thousands of children to study English and Maths for the Leaving Cert, two syllabi of minimal relevancy to the vast majority of people. Unless of course there is a hidden world of millions of Irish people using Jane Austen novels or calculi formulae on a quotidian basis. To think that people must have a knowledge of this abstract irrelevant sort of stuff in order to pass the Leaving Cert never mind get many state jobs defies belief. Even if you want to do fish farming in Letterkenny IT you are forced to learn this rubbish.

Maddening, really maddening :mad:

Rebelheart · 24-10-2009 02:09PM

eddyc wrote: »

The amount of culture consumed by our society in the English language is not even comparable to the amount consumed in the Irish language. Learning English in school gives people a greater understanding of the pervading culture that surrounds them, people go to the movies, watch tv, listen to music read books yes even speaking to each other is done mostly in English.

That's a non sequitur. You are defending the current situation where children are forced to do English for the Leaving Cert. You seem to be under the impression that the English syllabus that they are forced to take is necessary and beneficial for their lives. How, pray tell, is it necessary to read that ultimate bore, Jane Austen? Oh my God: she was horrid. The worst days of my school life were when I was forced to endure that article and her natterings about things which were, and remain, totally irrelevant. How is it necessary - never mind relevant - to understanding what you term "the pervading culture" to read that plagiarising headwrecker from the 16th century, William Shakespeare? Or WB Yeats, whose obsession with one woman whom he barely kissed has managed to pass as important for decades now. There are so many of them. I can't remember ever having a grammar class for Leaving Cert. Most people learn the academic aspect of their English grammar through learning Irish/French/Spanish/German etc.

If people want to learn about the "pervading culture" they can decide to go to the cinema, pub etc on their own time. Forcing hundreds of thousands of children to take English as a compulsory subject in the Leaving Cert is as absurd to me as you feel it is for Irish. There is no rational basis for it.

Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

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